Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Jon Weirgaryen

R+L=J v.104

Recommended Posts

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.


Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v. 97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v. 98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v. 99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L =J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L =J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L =J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L =J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks J.W!



@TheLastStark, from previous thread.



The app is going to tell us what is known in universe, not the authorial confirmation. For example, it also says that Jon died at Castle Black. So, whatever it gives for the end date to the War is, I suppose, subjective to the people of Westeros.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

damn! version 103 got killed in 28 hours

We want to get into the 200-level courses before winter comes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the wiki wrong in this then?

I think it is quite right. But how could I say for sure? I try to be very fluent with the Robellion timeline on the one hand, on the other hand well brought up arguments of other fans do sway me. I have the problem of being biased by the ideas of others who did the timeline stitiching before I even started. And the wiki has the same problem. All the year numbers were hopefully calculated back from Joff's wedding day (300-01-01). Who can say if anyone has ever got it all right?

So I do not challenge the wiki to be wrong in this, I'd rather say "proven because it is in the wiki" must be discounted.

Better to say "since it looks like more than a full year of Robellion fitting into the years 282 and 283 and then another 8 months before Dany is born and Dragonstone falls, the latter would have been in 284 :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

damn! version 103 got killed in 28 hours

Yeah....that was a crazy one....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the timeline, I am not aware of a quote in the app specifying when the war was officially over.

However, the war lasted close to a year (it could be a little less than a year, it could be a little more). Since we know that Jon was conceived during the war, and born around the Sack or in the month following, and that Dany was born 8 to 9 months later, the end of the war won't have been with the fall of Dragonstone.

We don't know exactly when Dorne bend the knee, but Jon Arryn went to Dorne in the year following the war, and then talk of rebellion died.

Most logically, the end of the war was the lifting of the Siege. Robert was already crowned when he gave Stannis command over the fleet to take Dragonstone, after all, and he would bot have crowned himself king if the war had not yet been won, IMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sorry for nitpicknicking...




Robert was already crowned when he gave Stannis command over the fleet to take Dragonstone, after all, and he would bot have crowned himself king if the war had not yet been won, IMO





Technically that's true, only Robert ordered Stannis to build said fleet prior to actually using it to assault Dragonstone as the Robbels were without ships.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most logically, the end of the war was the lifting of the Siege. Robert was already crowned when he gave Stannis command over the fleet to take Dragonstone, after all, and he would bot have crowned himself king if the war had not yet been won, IMO

Ned's thoughts seem to indicate this as well: "Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Better to say "since it looks like more than a full year of Robellion fitting into the years 282 and 283 and then another 8 months before Dany is born and Dragonstone falls, the latter would have been in 284 :-)

No, since it can be proven that Dany was born in 284AC, and text states that Stannis was either on his way to Dragonstone, or about to leave for Dragonstone, we can state with certainty that the castle fell in 284AC ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most logically, the end of the war was the lifting of the Siege. Robert was already crowned when he gave Stannis command over the fleet to take Dragonstone, after all, and he would bot have crowned himself king if the war had not yet been won, IMO

Hmmm. I'm not sure I agree. Robert was crowned King but he did not have control over all of Westeros, and there is another King (Viserys, I'll ignore Jon for the present) who has been crowned. The war might have been won in the sense that the Baratheon victory was secured but it wasn't over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that the war as it is referred to in the books ended with the Sack and the submission of the Tyrells, since the fighting ended with that. Technically, it continued until Stannis had taken Dragonstone months later - or perhaps even until Jon Arryn went to Sunspear to talk to Prince Doran. This conversation brought Dorne back into the Realm, it seems...



We should assume that the 'close to a year' thing refers to the time passed between Jon Arryn calling his banners (the outbreak of the war), and Paxter/Mace bending their knees to Robert Baratheon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that the war as it is referred to in the books ended with the Sack and the submission of the Tyrells, since the fighting ended with that. Technically, it continued until Stannis had taken Dragonstone months later - or perhaps even until Jon Arryn went to Sunspear to talk to Prince Doran. This conversation brought Dorne back into the Realm, it seems...

We should assume that the 'close to a year' thing refers to the time passed between Jon Arryn calling his banners (the outbreak of the war), and Paxter/Mace bending their knees to Robert Baratheon.

So can we say: Robert's Rebellion--to put an end to the Targaryen Dynasty--ended with the sack of KL and the Tyrell's bending the knee, but the submission of Westeros as a result of Robert's Rebellion continued until DS and Dorne were taken/submitted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that the war as it is referred to in the books ended with the Sack and the submission of the Tyrells, since the fighting ended with that. Technically, it continued until Stannis had taken Dragonstone months later - or perhaps even until Jon Arryn went to Sunspear to talk to Prince Doran. This conversation brought Dorne back into the Realm, it seems...

We should assume that the 'close to a year' thing refers to the time passed between Jon Arryn calling his banners (the outbreak of the war), and Paxter/Mace bending their knees to Robert Baratheon.

:agree: That would be my take too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So can we say: Robert's Rebellion--to put an end to the Targaryen Dynasty--ended with the sack of KL and the Tyrell's bending the knee, but the submission of Westeros as a result of Robert's Rebellion continued until DS and Dorne were taken/submitted.

When was Dorne brought back into the fold? Before Dragonstone was taken?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sorry for nitpicknicking...

Technically that's true, only Robert ordered Stannis to build said fleet prior to actually using it to assault Dragonstone as the Robbels were without ships.

I came across this in my collection of app quotes when I was trying to answer the question "what does the app say?" from last thread. It states that King Robert commanded Stannis to take command over the fleet. The books, IIRC, only state that Robert (no specification on whether he was king already) ordered Stannis to start building the ships.

Logically, those two would follow each other. But it seems that the word King here is the most telling, timeline wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I came across this in my collection of app quotes when I was trying to answer the question "what does the app say?" from last thread. It states that King Robert commanded Stannis to take command over the fleet. The books, IIRC, only state that Robert (no specification on whether he was king already) ordered Stannis to start building the ships.

Logically, those two would follow each other. But it seems that the word King here is the most telling, timeline wise.

Well calling yourself King and being King of all of Westeros (if that's your goal) don't go hand in hand: Stannis, Renly, Joffery, Tommen. So yes, Robert was King because he had been crowned but that doesn't mean the war is over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this whole 'close to a year' thing is from a SSM, right? In-universe the historians would most likely have their own take on when the war actually began and ended.



The Dance of the Dragons most likely was also over when Aegon II died and Aegon III ascended the Iron Throne, but this does not mean that the fighting was over at that time (there could have been rebels/outlaws and lords out there fighting for themselves, or in the name of Aegon III despite the fact that his administration did not want them to do such a thing).



The War of the Usurper was won when Robert took KL - or perhaps even when he won at the Trident. Everything afterwards was just an epilogue, but 'the book' is only concluded after the epilogue, either, so stuff like that still matters for the historians...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×