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R+L=J v 58


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:47 AM

May the Dance with Theories continue.

#2 Mladen

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:50 AM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

Edited by Mladen, 20 August 2013 - 03:53 AM.


#3 Mikkel

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:51 AM

I wonder if there can in any way be anything new to say about this theory at this stage, heh. Probably not.

#4 King of Winters

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:51 AM

Carrying on from the last thread, here's and FAQ on Septa Lemore, and mentions how old Ashara is:

The chief objection to this is Lemore’s age—said to be over 40—almost certainly does not fit, since in all likelihood Ashara Dayne was approximately the same age as Eddard Stark, give or take a year, and Ned was in his mid-thirties at the time of the novels. Besides that, Lemore’s eyes are never made any note of except in the general way in which Tyrion describes Lemore as more handsome than pretty. Ashara Dayne’s violet eyes were, on the other hand, quite famous, noted both in the story of the the Knight of the Laughing Tree and by Barristan Selmy. Short of Lemore using a glamor or some other art to hide her eye color, it seems very unlikely that her possession of violet eyes would have gone unremarked.



#5 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:58 AM

I wonder if there can in any way be anything new to say about this theory at this stage, heh. Probably not.


You'd be surprised. Yes, lots of it is repetitive, but about once per thread, we get some new angle, some new interpretation, or some new piece of foreshadowing for this.

#6 Mikkel

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:00 AM

You'd be surprised. Yes, lots of it is repetitive, but about once per thread, we get some new angle, some new interpretation, or some new piece of foreshadowing for this.


I would be surprised yes, but I'd be glad to be so - my post was intended as wry amusement, not as criticism of the thread or its premise /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#7 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:00 AM

I would be surprised yes, but I'd be glad to be so - my post was intended as wry amusement, not as criticism of the thread or its premise /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


That's the way I understood you, so no need to explain yourself /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#8 Greymoon

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:03 AM

Nothing to do with Ashara, but I thought I'd post it anyway...

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I've wondered if there was ever a comparison drawn between Sansa and Lyanna? Arya is often compared to Lyanna, by Ned himself, but there is this one instance when Sansa is pleading for Lady's life, that Ned wonders about Lyanna, and if she had pleaded the same way...
That made me think, that we are too often focused on the Arya/Lyanna parallel, to actually wonder about Sansa, and the parallels of her story to Lyanna's...

... there has been mentions (Barbrey Dustin) of Rickard Stark's southern ambitions. These mentions have led to the theory that the Tully/Stark/Arryn/Baratheon + Lannister alliance was meant to undermine the power on the Targaryens. I'm inclined to believe, that it looked this way. Even if there was no true conspiracy, however one wishes to look at it, the Tully/Stark/Arryn/Baratheon alliance is a powerful alliance. Lysa Tully was also betrothed to Jaime Lannister at some point. So the most powerful families of Westeros would have been united through marriage (+ Jon Arryn, through Ned & Bob) and Robert, coincidentally has close ties to the Targaryen dynasty = a claim on the Iron Throne.

So...returning to the topic of Sansa: when Sansa pleads for Lady's life, she has already once chosen her golden Prince over her own family. Later, Sansa chooses Joffrey again and betrays her father's plans to Cersei. We’ve heard it before, there is a story within a story. Jon/Ygritte parallels have been considered, I suggest that Sansa/Joffrey should be considered as well.

The point I'm trying to make here, is that :
1) Ned reveals to us, that Lyanna pleaded - possibly for someone's life. The question is when? how? and who was her interlocutor? I don't think that Ned remembers her pleading for Jon's life. We already have the 'promises' made between Ned and Lyanna. The pleading IMO, was done at another time -
2) Ned compares Lyanna to Sansa - Sansa chose her golden Prince twice, over her own family. If we take the comparison further, we can speculate that Lyanna, when faced with the choice chose her Prince over her family.

Now I'm not certain because I don't have the books, but does Ned imagine that this must have been like it was for Lyanna, or does Ned remember - as in, he saw Lyanna plead, with his own eyes? if the later is true, then this whole theory is false, but if the former stands, then-

Now this is only speculation, but I think it's possible, that Lyanna pleaded with Aerys. I'm not saying Lyanna was in KL when Brandon arrived, but I think it's possible Rhaegar never actually captured her, but that Lyanna went willingly, on her own, to KL in order to warn her silver Prince - Rhaegar - about her father's plans – and that Aerys got wind of it.
IMO, this explains why Aerys then summoned all these people to be executed in KL. He was already in a fit of rage when Brandon arrived, he already knew about a possible conspiracy, and had already decided to execute all of the conspirators. I think, that Rhaegar had to take Lyanna away from KL, for her own safety. Further, if Lyanna had only herself to blame for her father’s death, for me, that explains why she would stay at the ToJ, and not run away from Rhaegar.

Ultimately, I believe that Lyanna's Prince was kinder than Sansa's Prince, and that Rhaegar did betray his wife with her, and that they married at some point. But I don't think that there was anything much like a 'kidnapping' or 'elopement' planned, or that their story was the foundation of the war. I think the story of a kidnapping was some sort of alibi - a spur of the moment kind of thing created to 1) protect Lyanna's honor 2) counter rumors of a possible conspiracy, 3) have a convenient motive for starting the war – although this was put to a halt with Brandon's imprisonment.

#9 Ygrain

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:07 AM

You'd be surprised. Yes, lots of it is repetitive, but about once per thread, we get some new angle, some new interpretation, or some new piece of foreshadowing for this.

And we're all waiting for the seventh :-)

I hope you are feeling better?

#10 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:14 AM

Better, but still far from good. Caught a terrible cold apparently, and while the headache and vertigo are gone, I still have a bad cough.

#11 Mladen

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:18 AM

snip


With all due respect, but this is pure fanfic for me, not to mentiomn you completely missed important parallels between Sansa and Lyanna.

1. I agree with Sansa/Lyanna pleading, but why the hell, Lyanna wouldn't plead for her son's life. It seems obvious that her last concern in life would be her son. So, yes, we could interpret Lyanna pleadig Ned for Jon's life...

2. There was possibility for Jaime and Lysa to be engaged, but they never were. So, entire union of Stark/Tully/Arryn/Baratheon alliance is lacking Lannister factor, for we do not know what Tywin wanted right before RR.

3. Sansa hadn't chosen Joffrey twice. The entire Lady situation was not Sansa siding with Joffrey, nor it could be interpreted that way. She kept her mouth shut because her father and King put a burden on her to name someone liar. So, she chose no one... Also, Sansa did went to Cersei and in a way disobeyed her father. That is the parallel you look. The only one...

4. You forget that Tywin was also invited to Harrenhall tourney, the one some of us believe was Rhaegar's attempt of coup d'etat with powerful lords. So, Rhaegar and Tywin would be on the same side against Aerys.

5. As far as we know, Rhaegar's location from the moment Lyanna was abducted to the Battle of Trident remains mystery. Most likely, they were in ToJ all the time, but who could tell for certain... From what we know from Barristan and Jaime, Lyanna has never been in KL.

Better, but still far from good. Caught a terrible cold apparently, and while the headache and vertigo are gone, I still have a bad cough.


I hope you are better, my friend... Cold is the worst sickness to have during summers...

#12 Greymoon

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:25 AM

With all due respect, but this is pure fanfic for me, not to mentiomn you completely missed important parallels between Sansa and Lyanna.

1. I agree with Sansa/Lyanna pleading, but why the hell, Lyanna wouldn't plead for her son's life. It seems obvious that her last concern in life would be her son. So, yes, we could interpret Lyanna pleadig Ned for Jon's life...

2. There was possibility for Jaime and Lysa to be engaged, but they never were. So, entire union of Stark/Tully/Arryn/Baratheon alliance is lacking Lannister factor, for we do not know what Tywin wanted right before RR.

3. Sansa hadn't chosen Joffrey twice. The entire Lady situation was not Sansa siding with Joffrey, nor it could be interpreted that way. She kept her mouth shut because her father and King put a burden on her to name someone liar. So, she chose no one... Also, Sansa did went to Cersei and in a way disobeyed her father. That is the parallel you look. The only one...

4. You forget that Tywin was also invited to Harrenhall tourney, the one some of us believe was Rhaegar's attempt of coup d'etat with powerful lords. So, Rhaegar and Tywin would be on the same side against Aerys.

5. As far as we know, Rhaegar's location from the moment Lyanna was abducted to the Battle of Trident remains mystery. Most likely, they were in ToJ all the time, but who could tell for certain... From what we know from Barristan and Jaime, Lyanna has never been in KL.


I did say it was speculation. There are plenty of things that don't make sense in my opinion, about Lyanna staying safely put at the ToJ. If you agree on the parallels between Sansa and Lyanna, you are free to draw your own. I only suggested that the parallels should be considered.

And Sansa did choose Joffrey over Arya, IMO. I've gathered that you are defensive of Sansa, but this is how I perceive her keeping silent. Silence is just as telling as speaking, really. She could have told the truth, but she didn't. Feel free to point the other parallels between Sansa and Lyanna, I'm interested.

However, I don't believe that there is anything in the books that says that Lyanna wasn't at KL at some point. I don't think that either Barristan or Jaime give us such clues, but maybe I'm remembering this wrong, in which case it would be nice to have a quote. Else, I'll just maintain that while there is nothing that says she was there, we can not entirely overlook the possibility that she was.

I don't think this is more fanfiction than the speculation that they got married at the Isle of faces, or that Alyria Dayne is Brandon's daughter.
For me, there is simply plenty of things I cannot make sense of. I know there are some opinions on this forum and people that think it's all perfectly logical for Rhaegar and Lyanna to just 'hide' at the tower. I don't adhere to that opinion, so I'm trying to look at this through another angle. I don't see how this is a problem, as in fact the only way to strengthen a theory is to look at it through different angles no matter how convoluted or twisted they seem at first.

If there are proper arguments to counter it, I'm all ears. I've already said, that because Ned made promises, I don't believe that the 'pleading' referred to the same instance/moment in Lyanna's life. I've asked, if Ned remembers and was an eyewitness to the pleading, or if he ponders about it and has only heard an account. You have not answered my question, but dismissed my theory. I don't think that's very fair.

The things that don't make sense to me are the following:
  • If Lyanna got wind of her brother and her father's death, why would she stay at the ToJ? - for her own safety, I agree with this perspective, but I don't believe that Lyanna would have accepted this quietly and not tried to reach Ned. IMO, that means that she was either coerced by Rhaegar, or felt that the war had been inevitable.
  • If Rhaegar meant to marry Lyanna properly, why go to the ToJ, and not establish another household with his second wife, as would be the logical and proper thing to do?
  • If Rhaegar and Lyanna took a ship to go from the north to the south, and didn't want to go to KL, why didn't they go to Dragonstone?
  • If the ToJ was in a bad enough shape that Ned could use its stone to build some cairns, why would Rhaegar consider this a proper and practical place for hiding his paramour/second wife who is later pregnant with his child?
  • If the ToJ was a place where Rhaegar and Lyanna had planned to stay for a long time, how did they get any supplies up there, with only to knights of the KG to help them? And if more than only two knights of the KG were responsible for bringing supplies, why does no one else seem to know about it?
  • since ravens seem unreliable, how would Rhaegar and Lyanna have communicated to plan the elopement? Who could have been passing on their messages? If you want to believe that Rhaegar simply told Lyanna meet me there at the moons turn, alright, why not? But I think that nothing about planning an elopement or kidnapping was/could have been practical or run smoothly between such great distances as Winterfell and KL.
We cannot claim that we know for sure what happened, and that Rhaegar kindnapped her. We cannot claim that this wasn't the case, but as long as we have no certainty, I'll try to look for other options.That other option is that Lyanna left on her own, and to make sense of this we have:
  • a convenient indication that Rickard might have had southern ambitions. Even if we discount the Lannisters from the plot, the fact remains that there was a Stark/Tully/Arryn/Baratheon alliance.
  • In two instances we are shown Lyanna’s opinions about righteousness. Once, when she seems wary of her betrothal to Robert, another time when she defends Howland Reed.
  • We have Ned, conveniently also, comparing Sansa and Lyanna, and the indictaion that Lyanna 'pleaded'. For what, we are not told.
  • We are also told that Lyanna was a good rider, and that she had the ‘wolf-blood’, and that seems akin to saying she was ‘spontaneous’, unruly or wild.


#13 JonNonRegis

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:11 AM

For me, there is simply plenty of things I cannot make sense of... people that think it's all perfectly logical for Rhaegar and Lyanna to just 'hide' at the tower.


Not me. Right there with you.

Among your other points, I would focus on this one:

In two instances we are shown Lyanna’s opinions about righteousness. Once, when she seems wary of her betrothal to Robert, another time when she defends Howland Reed.


I would say my biggest problem with R+L=J is indeed that it just seems out of character for Lyanna as I understand her. Granted, we just really don't have very much... but still.

In addition to the notion of righteousness -- cited above, that aligns rather well with Ned-ish notions of "honor" -- we have something else in her situation with Robert. To wit, Lyanna seems to have been rather level-headed and talented at accurately predicting the course of possible future actions, even those involving her love life.

She looks at Robert -- a great lord of the realm, also described by Ned as a muscle-bound "maiden's dream" at this time -- and she says "Eh." And the reason she says "eh" is because she correctly predicts he will not be faithful... that whatever his stated feelings for her, regardless of whether he marries her, he will still cheat. And he will do it early and often.

Well, she was bang-on accurate in that, if you ask me.

And when older brother Ned tried to talk her into giving Robert the benefit of the doubt, she wasn't buying it. She had sussed Robert out and she knew better.

I think she might similarly have had qualms about running away with a married father and heir to the Iron Throne. If she could calmly predict Robert would be a cheat, she could probably also predict all the tremendous political upheaval that would surely come from eloping with or marrying Rhaegar. So this has always bothered me about R+L=J, that it just seems out of character for Lyanna.

#14 no_payne_no_gain

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:13 AM

I cannot believe this is still going on... you guys are awesome. /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

#15 MtnLion

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:39 AM

Good job, mladen, at getting the Reference in. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#16 Mladen

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:42 AM

Good job, mladen, at getting the Reference in. /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />


I hope it isn't the problem. As I know, the first one who posts on the new edition, posts the Reference guide... I hope you don't think I crossed the line, and if you do, please accept my appologies... I meant no harm...

#17 Som Tin Wong

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:46 AM

I cannot believe this is still going on... you guys are awesome. /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />


And it will continue on long after the series is finished.

#18 FrozenFire3

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:51 AM

So this has always bothered me about R+L=J, that it just seems out of character for Lyanna.


Problem is Ned himself thinks her wolf blood brought her to an early grave. More or less openly blaming her recklessness. In judging her out-of-character-ness, we are all a bit like Robert: oblivious to the steel (and the wolf blood) underneath.

Edited by FrozenFire3, 20 August 2013 - 10:55 AM.


#19 Tarkin Sand

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:31 AM

Problem is Ned himself thinks her wolf blood brought her to an early grave. More or less openly blaming her recklessness. In judging her out-of-character-ness, we are all a bit like Robert: oblivious to the steel (and the wolf blood) underneath.


This, and also just because she was able to "calmly" judge Robert (a guy she wasn't super into) doesn't mean we can expect a teenage girl to be logical about love. For me it's not a character inconsistency...it's hormones.

Now, I can't answer why her type is a moody harpist as opposed to a beefy hunksicle, but the heart wants what it wants.

#20 King of Winters

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:39 AM

This, and also just because she was able to "calmly" judge Robert (a guy she wasn't super into) doesn't mean we can expect a teenage girl to be logical about love. For me it's not a character inconsistency...it's hormones.

Now, I can't answer why her type is a moody harpist as opposed to a beefy hunksicle, but the heart wants what it wants.

One of the reasons, if not the definitive reason, Lyanna didn't like Robert was he was known to have slept with other women, and by the time he was betrothed to Lyanna he already had a bastard in the Vale, Mya Stone.

Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature.

This is her quote about her thoughts on Robert, so she'd believed she couldn't change Robert's whoring.

Edited by King of the Starks, 20 August 2013 - 11:41 AM.