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R+L=J v.55


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#1 Angalin

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:21 PM

Stay on topic, please. Dany's hot baths have nothing to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna, unless the Tower of Joy had better plumbing than we yet know of.

#2 Nami

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:26 PM

My last comment about this

How about Aegon and his sisters flying around on fire breathing dragons? That doesn't show fire resistance at all in the Targ bloodline?


Ok, about this, it is said in the books that the Targaryens dabbled with spells and magic, that's why they could tame/ride the dragons. Dany said this on her last chapter of ADWD. Not because they were fireproof and didn't burn from riding them

I'm just gonna repost here what I wrote on the last thread:

Random thought here
But I believe Jon "woke the dragon" when he lifted Alliser Thorne by the neck. It was a really weird moment the way it was written. Almost felt like one of GRRM hints. Jon
was just quietly taking everything they threw at him and then snapped
I think it's more of his Targ side manifestation than the Stark side. Starks don't snap like that, they have a natural hot temper, so if it was a typical Stark reaction he would be kicking and punching those guys since the beginning.

That moment in the book really hit me as GRRM trying to imply something

Edited by Nami, 22 July 2013 - 01:27 PM.


#3 King of Winters

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:53 PM

I'm just gonna repost here what I wrote on the last thread:

Random thought here
But I believe Jon "woke the dragon" when he lifted Alliser Thorne by the neck. It was a really weird moment the way it was written. Almost felt like one of GRRM hints. Jon
was just quietly taking everything they threw at him and then snapped
I think it's more of his Targ side manifestation than the Stark side. Starks don't snap like that, they have a natural hot temper, so if it was a typical Stark reaction he would be kicking and punching those guys since the beginning.

That moment in the book really hit me as GRRM trying to imply something

Yeah, I've seen people suggest that that was a bit of Targ anger Jon has.

Just another random thought that I thought of when I saw "woke the dragon", waking the dragon from stone could be people discovering Jon is a Targ (dragon) in Lyanna's tomb, as she could have a Targ wedding cloak with her (as well as Torrhen's Crown).That's probably been mentioned before but I was reminded of it.

Edited by King of the Starks, 22 July 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#4 Stannis Lives

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:32 PM

Stay on topic, please. Dany's hot baths have nothing to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna, unless the Tower of Joy had better plumbing than we yet know of.


I think the argument was really about the Targ bloodline and what it means to combine Rhaegar and Lyanna and what traits would be passed down to a Jon (or not passed down). The argument always comes back to Jon's hand so sorry for diverging into Dany's hot baths. /eek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eek:' />

#5 Angalin

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:40 PM

Dany's hot baths. /eek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':eek:' />

Sometimes a hot bath is just a hot bath. Carry on.

#6 LadyMary

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:26 PM

My last comment about this



Ok, about this, it is said in the books that the Targaryens dabbled with spells and magic, that's why they could tame/ride the dragons. Dany said this on her last chapter of ADWD. Not because they were fireproof and didn't burn from riding them

I'm just gonna repost here what I wrote on the last thread:

Random thought here
But I believe Jon "woke the dragon" when he lifted Alliser Thorne by the neck. It was a really weird moment the way it was written. Almost felt like one of GRRM hints. Jon
was just quietly taking everything they threw at him and then snapped
I think it's more of his Targ side manifestation than the Stark side. Starks don't snap like that, they have a natural hot temper, so if it was a typical Stark reaction he would be kicking and punching those guys since the beginning.

That moment in the book really hit me as GRRM trying to imply something


I'm on board with RL=J but I don't think Jon's burst of temper at Alliser Thorne was necessarily a Targ-blood of the dragon-thing. It could just as easily have been a hot-headed blood of the wolf-thing.

Considering the temperaments of Jon's parents, the shewolf Lyanna was said to have been a bit wild (hastening her death, according to Ned) who once used violence to protect a bannerman from an assault; just as Jon once stood up to Thorne's bullying to protect Sam. The dragon Rhaegar was not known to have a hot temper, but was quite the opposite, known for bouts of introspection and melancholy. Jon was a man of few words who was introspective and melancholy (emo?) at various times. I think Jon has elements of both his biological parents in his personality.

#7 ReekLeek

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

I'm new to this thread. Are there people who believe jon is NOT a targ because he burned his hand?

#8 Stannis Lives

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:24 PM

I'm new to this thread. Are there people who believe jon is NOT a targ because he burned his hand?


Yup. That segued into Dany's baths. No need to revisit. We all agreed on one thing. Jon burning his hand is irrelevant to whether he is Targ or not.

#9 ReekLeek

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:36 PM

Yup. That segued into Dany's baths. No need to revisit. We all agreed on one thing. Jon burning his hand is irrelevant to whether he is Targ or not.

Ok thx. I agree that its irrelevant. However, GRRM has stated that targs are not fireproof. That seems to be a statement made to cover jon targaryens burnt hand

#10 Ser Creighton

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:42 PM

Sometimes a hot bath is just a hot bath. Carry on.


And sometimes they have bubbles.

#11 Alia of the knife

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 09:46 PM

My last comment about this



Ok, about this, it is said in the books that the Targaryens dabbled with spells and magic, that's why they could tame/ride the dragons. Dany said this on her last chapter of ADWD. Not because they were fireproof and didn't burn from riding them

I'm just gonna repost here what I wrote on the last thread:

Random thought here
But I believe Jon "woke the dragon" when he lifted Alliser Thorne by the neck. It was a really weird moment the way it was written. Almost felt like one of GRRM hints. Jon
was just quietly taking everything they threw at him and then snapped
I think it's more of his Targ side manifestation than the Stark side. Starks don't snap like that, they have a natural hot temper, so if it was a typical Stark reaction he would be kicking and punching those guys since the beginning.

That moment in the book really hit me as GRRM trying to imply something


Agree, and Starks are more cold in their nature, despite Brandon's reaction. Remember what Ned said about the Sculptor getting his harsh fathers features correct.

#12 Stannis Lives

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 10:56 PM

Jojen explains to bran that both of them were visited by the three eyed crow after near death experiences. I think bran will come to Jon in Jon's near death experience and give him his "third eye". He will show him who his parents are and teach him to see.

#13 Nami

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:14 PM

I'm on board with RL=J but I don't think Jon's burst of temper at Alliser Thorne was necessarily a Targ-blood of the dragon-thing. It could just as easily have been a hot-headed blood of the wolf-thing.

Considering the temperaments of Jon's parents, the shewolf Lyanna was said to have been a bit wild (hastening her death, according to Ned) who once used violence to protect a bannerman from an assault; just as Jon once stood up to Thorne's bullying to protect Sam. The dragon Rhaegar was not known to have a hot temper, but was quite the opposite, known for bouts of introspection and melancholy. Jon was a man of few words who was introspective and melancholy (emo?) at various times. I think Jon has elements of both his biological parents in his personality.


Both Rhaegar and Jon were/is melancholic and introspected, maybe they shared too this snapping moments
I wonder if it's intentional and their personalities are really that similar, since Jon looks so much like a Stark. He must have some Targ in him

#14 Alia of the knife

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:20 PM

Both Rhaegar and Jon were/is melancholic and introspected, maybe they shared too this snapping moments
I wonder if it's intentional and their personalities are really that similar, since Jon looks so much like a Stark. He must have some Targ in him


I would say that we just haven't heard of any moments of Rhaegar snapping- yet.

Remember, GRRM has promised to flesh out his relationship with his father.
We also don't know what his reaction may have been when he found out Lyanna was the KotLt, and betrothed to his cousin. I would bet the likelihood of an irritation for Robert may have gone up.

#15 Nami

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:22 PM

I would say that we just haven't heard of any moments of Rhaegar snapping- yet.

Remember, GRRM has promised to flesh out his relationship with his father.
We also don't know what his reaction may have been when he found out Lyanna was the KotLt, and betrothed to his cousin. I would bet the likelihood of an irritation for Robert may have gone up.


Might be
but he seemed really nonchalant when talking about Robert to Jaime. Not a person who was hating Bob and wanted to get him out of the way once and for all

#16 Ser Creighton

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:37 PM

Both Rhaegar and Jon were/is melancholic and introspected, maybe they shared too this snapping moments
I wonder if it's intentional and their personalities are really that similar, since Jon looks so much like a Stark. He must have some Targ in him


I sometimes wonder if people actually understand what melancholia is? Some people seem to think it's a minor form of depression, as in he could be moody, or some even seem to think it means Rhaegar did things on a whim or was of a caprices nature. I wonder what Martin thinks it means? Melancholia is a severe form of depression often associated with manic behavior and delusions. He seems to have some sad moments mentioned, but it really doesn't seem to be a a major form of depression. Sad music, that's about all we get.

By the way Jon takes after Ned more than anyone. He acts a lot like him, probably because he was raised by him. I don't think Jon takes after Rhaegar to much. Not that we really know him that well, but Jon clearly has the whole Stark way of doing things. Martin named them the Starks for a reason.

#17 UVA

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:53 PM

I sometimes wonder if people actually understand what melancholia is? Some people seem to think it's a minor form of depression, as in he could be moody, or some even seem to think it means Rhaegar did things on a whim or was of a caprices nature. I wonder what Martin thinks it means? Melancholia is a severe form of depression often associated with manic behavior and delusions. He seems to have some sad moments mentioned, but it really doesn't seem to be a a major form of depression. Sad music, that's about all we get


I tend to think that with the scant descriptions we get of Rhaegar's character that Martin may be drawing from a 19th c. Romantic notion of melancholia, as seen in characters like Faust, Rochester, and Captain Ahab: simultaneously gifted and cursed with the "high perception". This is more of an existential sadness as opposed to a clinical issue.

Edited by UVA, 22 July 2013 - 11:54 PM.


#18 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:58 PM

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practised in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the KG at ToJ on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in lineany time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the KG might have stayed at ToJ, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)

R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

R+L=J v.47 (thread forty-seven)

R+L=J v. 48 (thread forty-eight)

R+L=J v.49 (thread forty-nine)

R+L=J v. 50 (thread fifty)

R+L=J v.51 (thread fifty-one)


R+L=J v.52 (thread fifty-two)

R+L=J v.53 (thread fifty-three)

R+L=J v.54 (thread fifty=four)

(I tried to "unbold" the link to 54 & couldn't.)

Edited by Winds of Winter blow cold, 23 July 2013 - 12:12 AM.


#19 Four-Eyed Crow

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:20 AM

My life feels so much more secure and less exciting now that I know beyond a reasonable doubt that Jon Snow is a legitimate Targaryen and trueborn heir to the Iron Throne, as well as Robb's named successor as King in the North. I'm really feeling ambivalent about it.

#20 corbon

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:50 AM

I sometimes wonder if people actually understand what melancholia is? Some people seem to think it's a minor form of depression, as in he could be moody, or some even seem to think it means Rhaegar did things on a whim or was of a caprices nature. I wonder what Martin thinks it means? Melancholia is a severe form of depression often associated with manic behavior and delusions. He seems to have some sad moments mentioned, but it really doesn't seem to be a a major form of depression. Sad music, that's about all we get.

What has Melancholia got to do with anything? Rhaegar appears to have had a melancholic disposition, which means he was sometimes melancholy, not that he suffered from Melancholia. Advancing that into full blown clinical Melancholia is a whole other story and pretty much conjectural and unfounded, despite what the haters would love everyone to believe..

Just so you know the difference...

From dictionary.com, because its online.

mel·an·chol·y
mel-uhn-kol-ee] noun, plural mel·an·chol·ies, adjective
noun
1. a gloomy state of mind, especially when habitual or prolonged; depression.
2. sober thoughtfulness; pensiveness.
3. Archaic. a. the condition of having too much black bile, considered in ancient and medieval medicine to cause gloominess and depression.
b. black bile.
adjective
4. affected with, characterized by, or showing melancholy; mournful; depressed: a melancholy mood.
5. causing melancholy or sadness; saddening: a melancholy occasion.
6. soberly thoughtful; pensive.


mel·an·cho·li·a
[mel-uhn-koh-lee-uh, -kohl-yuh]
noun
1. a mental condition characterized by great depression of spirits and gloomy forebodings.
2. Psychiatry. endogenous depression.


Being melancholy isn't even depression, mostly. Its just a personality trait. Its common language descriptive of a certain type of personality.

Edited by corbon, 23 July 2013 - 03:03 AM.