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R+L=J v. 52


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541 replies to this topic

#1 Xray the Enforcer

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

Props to Winds of Winter Blow Cold for creating the OP.
_____________________________________________________
Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practised in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the KG at ToJ on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in lineany time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the KG might have stayed at ToJ, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)

R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

R+L=J v.47 (thread forty-seven)

R+L=J v. 48 (thread forty-eight)

R+L=J v.49 (thread forty-nine)

R+L=J v. 50 (thread fifty)

R+L=J v.51

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 09 June 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#2 FrozenFire3

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:44 AM

Weak and ball-less for not entering a fight in a skill which requires years of practice? That is a rather weird way to judge someone. I don't believe that Jojen, wise far beyond his years, would label his father as such - or Ned, for that matter. Neither is the type to judge someone's character by vainglorious feats.


Or, quoting Cotter Pyke, they wouldn't give a kettle of piss who he unhorsed in some fool tourney /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Well... would you be surprised if the correct solution to the fight between R'hllor and the big Other was "get the hell out of our galaxy Westeros"?


/lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Very ironic, isn't it.
BTW, judging by Rhaegar's frequent escapes to solitude, I'd venture a guess that he felt he didn't fit, either, though for different reasons.


Absolutely. At a fundamental level the trait they have more in common is this sort of unbearable heaviness of being (reference non casual, dear Ygrain /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />). They never really fit because they are both... anomalies.

#3 Lord of Beyond the Wall

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:16 AM

52 already? What's left for say?

#4 King of Winters

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:22 AM

52 already? What's left for say?

/dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' /> When Jon will find out and who will tell him?

#5 Ygrain

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:35 AM

Absolutely. At a fundamental level the trait they have more in common is this sort of unbearable heaviness of being (reference non casual, dear Ygrain /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />). They never really fit because they are both... anomalies.

Oh, I'd sure never expect a not well-thought out literary reference from you :-)

#6 Red.Queen

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:39 AM

52 already? What's left for say?


Apparently, there's always something to say about this. You'd think that everything that can possibly be said has already been said, but no. There's always something. And of course, there are the things that are repeated countless times...

Edited by Red.Queen, 09 June 2013 - 01:02 PM.


#7 FrozenFire3

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:44 AM

Oh, I'd sure never expect a not well-thought out literary reference from you :-)


Couldn't not honour your mittel-European awesomeness /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#8 Ygrain

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:48 AM

Couldn't not honour your mittel-European awesomeness /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Well, I am certainly honoured :-)

Edited by Ygrain, 09 June 2013 - 11:48 AM.


#9 King Robert's Warhammer

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:53 AM

I wonder what the definitive proof will be. Who will Jon believe?

#10 Alia of the knife

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:53 AM

Frozenfire3 replied:

"Storinception /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />
On a side note, we often debate how many of Rhaegar's traits Jon has inherited. As you well pointed out, some of his action/decisions mirrors perfectly those of his parents. People tend to focus only on the infamous melancholic tendencies but Jon's arc tell us a more complex story.
Let's have a look at an ASOS passage in Jon's last pov. He has recently 'zoned out' beating Iron Emmett to a bloody pulp. Dragon awakening? A touch of slightly schizofrenic spacing-out? What follows is even more interesting. Lady Catelyn's face floats before his mind's eye and...

She looked at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at sword or sums or most anything.

It seems to me that the passage subtly hints at Jon's prowess not only with swords and other manly men's activities but also with more intellectual activities. Catelyn's resentment is tenfold increased by Jon's apparent ability at... doing everything well.
No wonder Jon's existential self-deprecating leit motiv is reiterated soon afterward:

Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

Very interesting logical sequitur imho. "



In answer to your reply, I completely agree that one of the fundamental keys to Jons identity is what he does rather than necessarily than what he looks like.
And, I'm glad you brought up the incident where he truly lost his temper, because while some of the Starks like Brandon and Lyanna show very strong emotional strains, they are more or less perceived by their peers of the realm as "cold," (ice).

The Targaryen temper as a historical parallel is very like the legendary Angevin/Plantaganet tempers, and waking the dragon is often a reference to that very similar "beserker" anger as Dany sometimes displays the same tendencies.

In regards to Aegon, the same may hold true in that while he may look like his Father, he may have had the sweet temperament of his Mother, and that is one main reason that I see JonCon's Aegon as a possible fake. And not so much the incident with Tyrion, but his rather callous statement about being switched "with some Pisswater boy."
Whatever Varys has in mind with him as the perfect Ruler, we may see the first indication of failure.

Also, as side note to both you and Ygrain, I actually liked the Vorlons. /blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />
And if GRRM can capture the same tension between the joy and the tragedy as B5, I will be happy.


@GuyfromtheVale said: "Little Brother is watching you."

I BET he is. /worried.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':worried:' /> /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />

Edited by Alia of the knife, 09 June 2013 - 01:36 PM.


#11 Ygrain

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:13 PM

In regards to Aegon, the same may hold true in that while he may look like his Father, he may have had the sweet temperament of his Mother, and that is one main reason that I see JonCon's Aegon as a possible fake. And not so much the incident with Tyrion, but his rather callous statement about being switched "with some Pisswater boy."
Whatever Varys has in mind with him as the perfect Ruler, we may see the first indication of failure.

A good catch - yet another moment where he presents himself as an entitled brat. I don't see Jon - or even Dany, for that matter - being so calluous about a baby that was killed in their stead.

Also, as side note to both you and Ygrain, I actually liked the Vorlons. /blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />
And if GRRM can capture the same tension between the joy and the tragedy as B5, I will be happy.


I liked Kosh well enough, but even before Mr Sebastian turned up, I already had my suspicions about their good intentions. I definitely see more tragedy with GRRM, and I wonder if we might get a "some must be sacrificed for everyone to be saved" moment, it certainly seems in line with the tough commanding decisions that Jon has had to do, and will.

#12 FrozenFire3

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:26 PM

In answer to your reply, I completely agree that one of the fundamental keys to Jons identity is what he does rather than necessarily than what he looks like.
And, I'm glad you brought up the incident where he truly lost his temper, because while some of the Starks like Brandon and Lyanna show very strong emotional strains, they are more or less perceived by their peers of the realm as "cold," (ice).


This is particularly true in Ned's case. His is a cold, controlled rage. Not less powerful, just different. After all, ice like fire can burn.
In this specific case what strikes me is not only the violence of Jon's 'berserk trip', but the peculiar detachment he experiences during it. He disconnects entirely from reality and only realises what he's doing when Halder and Horse pulls him away. If this is not a touch of madness... /leer.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':leer:' />
Btw, I finished my ASOS re-reading and have a few things to share about ice, fire and GRRM endless teasing LOL
Another time though. RL (and hopefully a new mayor) is calling /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Also, as side note to both you and Ygrain, I actually liked the Vorlons. /blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />
And if GRRM can capture the same tension between the joy and the tragedy as B5, I will be happy.


His bittersweet ending. Dreading and looking forward to it.

#13 Littlefingers In The Air

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:56 PM

As much as I enjoy reading about R+L=J and subscribe to it, why did it ever have to reach 52 threads?

#14 A Crow Come Over

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:03 PM

As much as I enjoy reading about R+L=J and subscribe to it, why did it ever have to reach 52 threads?


Because GRRM is an excellent writer.

#15 Ygrain

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

As much as I enjoy reading about R+L=J and subscribe to it, why did it ever have to reach 52 threads?

Various little hints are discovered on re-read, parallels, stories within stories, symbolism...
And then, of course, there are the recurring themes for the newbies, detractors etc.

#16 Alia of the knife

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:44 PM

A good catch - yet another moment where he presents himself as an entitled brat. I don't see Jon - or even Dany, for that matter - being so calluous about a baby that was killed in their stead.

[/size]
I liked Kosh well enough, but even before Mr Sebastian turned up, I already had my suspicions about their good intentions. I definitely see more tragedy with GRRM, and I wonder if we might get a "some must be sacrificed for everyone to be saved" moment, it certainly seems in line with the tough commanding decisions that Jon has had to do, and will.


I think so, and perhaps not from just Jon.

Since I tend to believe the Direwolves were sent as protectors or guardians to the Starks by the old gods, the naming of their direwolves are significant as a reflection of themselves.
Though Lady wasn't sacrificed in the usual sense, she did die in the place of Nymeria, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that that is a foreshadowing that Sansa may sacrifice herself to save Arya.

I can't think of anything more bittersweet than to see that ultimate act of love demonstrated by someone that Arya always thought hated her. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

This is particularly true in Ned's case. His is a cold, controlled rage. Not less powerful, just different. After all, ice like fire can burn.
In this specific case what strikes me is not only the violence of Jon's 'berserk trip', but the peculiar detachment he experiences during it. He disconnects entirely from reality and only realises what he's doing when Halder and Horse pulls him away. If this is not a touch of madness... /leer.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':leer:' />
Btw, I finished my ASOS re-reading and have a few things to share about ice, fire and GRRM endless teasing LOL
Another time though. RL (and hopefully a new mayor) is calling /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />



His bittersweet ending. Dreading and looking forward to it.


Oh, I definitely agree.

I think the difference between the emotional impact of a work like ASoIaF and "The Walking Dead" another favorite of mine, is that while they are two totally different concepts of time, place, and characters, there is still that similar element of "don't fall in love," in terms of the characters.
But with WD, I have actually come to expect the unexpected whereas with ASoIaF, you still don't know when the next shoe is going to fall. /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

In terms of Jon, hmmm, could he have a little of Aerys in him?, (thinking of course of my Avatars namesake in "Dune" where she became possessed by the Grandfather, the Baron).
Now would that not be a twist, and certainly make his Heroic Arc complicated.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 09 June 2013 - 01:48 PM.


#17 Lady Beyond the Wall

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:16 PM



Apparently, there's always something to say about this. You'd think that everything that can possibly be said has already been said, but no. There's always something. And of course, there are the things that are repeated countless times...


Which only happens because there are 52 Threads. I wonder how many posts? Does anyone know?

#18 Ygrain

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:25 PM

Which only happens because there are 52 Threads. I wonder how many posts? Does anyone know?

The threads are usually locked when they hit over 400 posts but some run longer if no mod notices, v. 49 managed over a thousand. If you want a precise number, click the links in the reference guide on the first page of the current thread :-)

#19 AegonSnow

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:41 PM

I would like to add Aemon's interaction between Jon as a clue.

Maester Aemon sighed. "Have you heard nothing I've told you, Jon? Do you think you are the first?" He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. "Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother's poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children . . . "
Jon was shocked to see the shine of tears in the old man's eyes. "Who are you?" he asked quietly, almost in dread.
A toothless smile quivered on the ancient lips. "Only a maester of the Citadel, bound in service to Castle Black and the Night's Watch. In my order, we put aside our house names when we take our vows and don the collar." The old man touched the maester's chain that hung loosely around his thin, fleshless neck. "My father was Maekar, the First of his Name, and my brother Aegon reigned after him in my stead. My grandfather named me for Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, who was his uncle, or his father, depending on which tale you believe. Aemon, he called me . . . "
"Aemon . . . Targaryen?" Jon could scarcely believe it.
"Once," the old man said. "Once. So you see, Jon, I do know . . . and knowing, I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself, and live with it all the rest of your days. As I have." His voice fell to a whisper. "As I have . . . "

-Game of Thrones, Jon VIII


Why did Aemon choose to reveal himself to Jon (and possibly ONLY Jon?). Maybe Aemon could sense the Targaryen blood in Jon?
  • Also Bran's vision of a Dragon rising from Winterfell.
-We have seen this kind of Vision before: at Whitefalls.

Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong.

-Bloodraven

The Mystery Knight


Daemon II's vision was not about a dragon hatching from an egg, but about a metaphorical dragon in Aegon V Targaryen

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snaked whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

-Bran's vision


This could be a case of JON Snow being the Dragon rising from the Winterfell crypts as a Targaryen. Jon was raised in Winterfell,
and if R+L= J is TRUE,
This is more likely than an actual dragon underneath Winterfell.

#20 _Vendetta

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:44 PM

I would like to add Aemon's interaction between Jon as a clue.


-Game of Thrones, Jon VIII


Why did Aemon choose to reveal himself to Jon (and possibly ONLY Jon?). Maybe Aemon could sense the Targaryen blood in Jon?
  • Also Bran's vision of a Dragon rising from Winterfell.
-We have seen this kind of Vision before: at Whitefalls.

[/indent]

The Mystery Knight


Daemon II's vision was not about a dragon hatching from an egg, but about a metaphorical dragon in Aegon V Targaryen



This could be a case of JON Snow being the Dragon rising from the Winterfell crypts as a Targaryen. Jon was raised in Winterfell,
and if R+L= J is TRUE,
This is more likely than an actual dragon underneath Winterfell.


If Jon is hurt and not killed, and is somehow delivered to Winterfell in one piece (for assumed burial) he may "rise" again?

My theory of Jon returning to Winterfell is definitely crackpot.

Edited by _Vendetta, 09 June 2013 - 03:44 PM.