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R + L = J Part XXIII


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:28 PM

Thread to continue the debate on this issue.

Previous thread is here - please read it before continuing and play nice.

#2 Asarlai

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:31 PM

Why don't the T+VH=T* threads ever get stickied?

*Timmitt+ValeHeir=Timmitt

#3 Horza

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:45 PM

Pfft. The real T+VH=T is Tyrion + Vargo Hoat = Tommen.

#4 LadyMary

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 09:51 PM

Posted by Noir Dove (last post on previous thread):

I'd like to add to this as well. In regards to Dany being the last dragon, I think that has more to do with mindset and magic than anything else.

Aemeon and Viserys are dragons by name, but they lacked the power to bring dragons back to life. Why is this? I don't think we know yet. I speculate that events at birth have something to do with the power of children. Wasn't the tragedy at Summerhall around the same time as Rhaegar's birth? And look at Daenerys... called Stormborn. That is just a suspicion I harbor.

Jon may also be a dragon by name, but in truth he is a Stark, be it Ned's or Lyanna's.


The term "Dragon" is bandied about a lot in this series. It's got the obvious symbolic association with House Targaryen and its sigil, a statement of temperament "You woke the Draaaagon!!!"/Viserys fail, a statement about blood and magic with the Targaryens able to master dragons (we don't know if non-Targaryens can do so yet). Evidently Daenerys is something more than the average Targaryen because generations of them tried to raise dragons and failed (maybe because they were being sabotaged by the Maesters, but only time will tell) and it always ended in disaster.

If Jon is part Targaryen by blood, he's still a Direwolf symbolically and by temperament. He's got a magical connection to Ghost in the same way that Danaerys does with Drogon, Viseron, and Rhaegel. At least two of the other Stark children are also gifted this way.

Anyway, I'm not sure it matters. Jon may be the son of a Targ and a Stark but he favors his Mother's side. He was raised a Stark and worships the old gods and the old gods gave the wolf pups to the Stark children. Likewise, whatever the old gods of Valyria were, they probably gifted Dany with her dragons. Both sides have a stake in the War for Dawn.

#5 Johnroy374

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:02 PM

While R+L+J is certainly possible, I will wait for Martin to let me know what is what and not try and get ahead of him.

This reply is really to a ton of posts in this thread that try and envision what Martin's ending will be and what place Jon and Dany will have in it. My point is that a lot of people have some pretty standard fantasy series endings in mind, and this seems very very unlikely to me. One of GRRM's main motivations that he has stated time and time again in every interview I have read on this series is to turn fantasy cliches on their heads. Almost nothing in the four books we have read goes as it would have in a "tradionally" structured heroic epic, the exact kind of stories Martin is so bothered by.

Whatever ending we get I'm sure will be strange and iconoclastic and different than anything that has gone before. Why write a wildly daring and rebellious story that battles fantasy conventions at every turn and then conform to those conventions at the ending? I don't pretend to have any good predictions about the ending, but one bet seems pretty sure: if it seems like it would happen one way in 85 percent of the novels on the Barnes and Noble fantasy rack, Martin will do it the other way, just like he did when the Mountain killed the Red Viper, Ned Stark was beheaded, and Jofffrey was killed by a Littlefinger/Tyrell plot and not by one of our protaganists to revenge his wrongs.

All I'm saying is while I don't have a clue how AoIAF will end, I see very little evidence that it will end like Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, The Sword of Shanarra, or Dragonlance. Those hoping for the Death Star blowing up and all the happy living heroes getting their medals while the Children of the Forest dance as flowery vines grow over the walls of Harrenhall are going to be quite disappointed.

Edited by Johnroy374, 22 June 2011 - 10:03 PM.


#6 SFDanny

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:59 PM

If Jon is part Targaryen by blood, he's still a Direwolf symbolically and by temperament. He's got a magical connection to Ghost in the same way that Danaerys does with Drogon, Viseron, and Rhaegel.


I know this is a little off topic, but do we know that Dany has the same type of connection to her dragons as the Stark children and Jon have with their wolves? Perhaps I missed it but I don't think Daenerys has dreams in which she sees through the eyes of her dragons. It could be something that will come later in the series, if it hasn't happen yet. She certainly has a bond with all the dragons who see her as their mother figure, but that seems to be very different than what the Starks (at least Bran, Arya, and Robb) and Jon have with the Dire Wolves. She had dreams before the birth of the dragons which a dragon played an important role, but this too seems like a different type of connection. Even further off topic, I've always thought the real reason for the Targaryen practice of sibling marriage has to do with an attempt to maintain the ability to have just this type of connection with dragons. I'm willing to bet Aegon the Conqueror and his sister had just this sort of special ability. Anyway, your post just stirred my interest and I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

#7 Asarlai

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 11:10 PM

I know this is a little off topic, but do we know that Dany has the same type of connection to her dragons as the Stark children and Jon have with their wolves? Perhaps I missed it but I don't think Daenerys has dreams in which she sees through the eyes of her dragons. It could be something that will come later in the series, if it hasn't happen yet. She certainly has a bond with all the dragons who see her as their mother figure, but that seems to be very different than what the Starks (at least Bran, Arya, and Robb) and Jon have with the Dire Wolves. She had dreams before the birth of the dragons which a dragon played an important role, but this too seems like a different type of connection. Even further off topic, I've always thought the real reason for the Targaryen practice of sibling marriage has to do with an attempt to maintain the ability to have just this type of connection with dragons. I'm willing to bet Aegon the Conqueror and his sister had just this sort of special ability. Anyway, your post just stirred my interest and I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Yes, she clearly has some sort of connection, but it seems to be different. While the Stark children's wolves develop personalities matching their own, are under some form of control and magical bond, Dany's dragons are growing harder and harder for her to control, so the bond may be weaker (more like mother-child than magical bond).

#8 theblueviper

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:04 AM

I'm not going to pretend I've read the immense number of posts this thread has spawned. I'm sure my opinion has been voiced before, but I'll do it anyway.

I believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Everything I've come to know about Ned Stark leads me to believe he would defile his own honor before doing so to his sisters. He wouldn't cheat on his betrothed and if he had he wouldn't refuse to speak of it to the love of his life. He kept the secret to save his nephew's life. He never held, or so it seemed to me, any bitterness towards Rhaegar as Robert did when if his sister was kidnapped and raped I think any sensible man would. Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

However I am pretty certain that this information will never come about in the books. As far as I've read nothing has led me to believe GRRM has any problem leaving such a glaringly loose end open. R+L=J. But it will make no difference on the series outcome.

#9 mormant

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:27 AM

I'm not going to pretend I've read the immense number of posts this thread has spawned. I'm sure my opinion has been voiced before, but I'll do it anyway.

I believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Everything I've come to know about Ned Stark leads me to believe he would defile his own honor before doing so to his sisters. He wouldn't cheat on his betrothed and if he had he wouldn't refuse to speak of it to the love of his life. He kept the secret to save his nephew's life. He never held, or so it seemed to me, any bitterness towards Rhaegar as Robert did when if his sister was kidnapped and raped I think any sensible man would. Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

However I am pretty certain that this information will never come about in the books. As far as I've read nothing has led me to believe GRRM has any problem leaving such a glaringly loose end open. R+L=J. But it will make no difference on the series outcome.


Just the opposite. You have made lots of good points. Yet I disagree with them.

Catelyn was loyal to Winterfell, heart and soul. Ned loved Cat and Cat loved Ned. Fullstop. Why would Ned taunt Cat with a "pretend bastard" for 15 years if hJon was actually his nephew? It makes no sense. We all know, plus Ned knows that Catelyn is hard out for Winterfall. Even if Cat was born at Riverrun, everyone knows she turned into a Winterfell-chick. Cat is so loyal to Winterfell it's not funny. Justifiably so as well. Cat has given birth to 5 children of Winterfell. No wonder she is such a staunch proponent of Winterfell.

So, to believe R+L=J you have to believe that Ned didn't properly trust Cat to keep the secret.

You also have to believe that 16 year old Lyanna had a baby in her arms and told Ned to take the baby but promise to never anyone who the baby was.

Also, you need to believe that wolf is stronger than dragon and Jon has absolutely no dragon traits.

So Jon is Rhaegar's son and one of the three heads of a dragon? lol... like lol.... Jon is a total wolf. He has no traits of dragon what so ever. None. As in zero traits of a dragon. In all povs and every sentence of the book there is zero hint of Jon having any dragon traits. EVER.

I'll stop this post here coz it's getting long, but I mean, come on.... read the books properly, nothing says Jon is a dragon/Targ.

The only mystery here is who was Jon's mother.

#10 Stanley Fernandez

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:46 AM

John's parentage and what his future holds sure is a very exciting topic. I am not going to even claim to understand as much as some of hear do, who have done far more research and study into the topic. But, I have couple of points/questions if some one can clarify.

It is assumed The Cat does not know the real parents of John's and that she believes it is Ned's bastard son hence her animosity towards him. Who Kills Cat's true love, its the targarians, which then forces Cat to merry Ned. So even if Cat knows John not really Ned's son she can still hate him for what his family took away from her. Bran is not able to connect with birds yet John can, would that explain some dragon connection in him???

Robbert and John are two very close friends, too close and there is very little information Ned will hold back from Robert. If John was a son from a common girl there is no harm in Ned telling her infor to Robert so there must be something to John's parents he feels king should not know.

Tyrion takes a lot of interest in the boys of winterfall, Robert and John..does he know something we do not and is he trying to confirm it one way or another.

Ned takes the biggest gamble of his life when he opposes the king for ordering the assasination of Deni, shows that he might have done everything possible to protect any child he might have come across during the war, especially if the child has stark blood.

#11 SerArthurHeath

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:57 AM

Just the opposite. You have made lots of good points. Yet I disagree with them.

Catelyn was loyal to Winterfell, heart and soul. Ned loved Cat and Cat loved Ned. Fullstop. Why would Ned taunt Cat with a "pretend bastard" for 15 years if hJon was actually his nephew? It makes no sense. We all know, plus Ned knows that Catelyn is hard out for Winterfall. Even if Cat was born at Riverrun, everyone knows she turned into a Winterfell-chick. Cat is so loyal to Winterfell it's not funny. Justifiably so as well. Cat has given birth to 5 children of Winterfell. No wonder she is such a staunch proponent of Winterfell.

So, to believe R+L=J you have to believe that Ned didn't properly trust Cat to keep the secret.

You also have to believe that 16 year old Lyanna had a baby in her arms and told Ned to take the baby but promise to never anyone who the baby was.

Also, you need to believe that wolf is stronger than dragon and Jon has absolutely no dragon traits.

So Jon is Rhaegar's son and one of the three heads of a dragon? lol... like lol.... Jon is a total wolf. He has no traits of dragon what so ever. None. As in zero traits of a dragon. In all povs and every sentence of the book there is zero hint of Jon having any dragon traits. EVER.

I'll stop this post here coz it's getting long, but I mean, come on.... read the books properly, nothing says Jon is a dragon/Targ.

The only mystery here is who was Jon's mother.


Well in terms of physical traits, the inbreeding Nd the rarity of Targ specific features backs up the idea that "the wolf is stronger than the dragon" in so far as that means anything. Then there is Jon's personality. We know little of Rhaegar except that he was rather melancholy like Jon, that he liked music, and that he taught himself to be a great swordsfighter. From what we've seen of Jon he is a better sword than the "middling" level that Martin specifically claims Ned was, but that could easily be due to other factors. But Stark traits overpowering Targ ones is easily believable and very likely both in and out of universe.

Lyanna giving up the baby at 16 (considering she seems quite mature in ned's memories of her and in the Reeds' story) seems pretty in character given that she was dying. Not wanting anyone to know also makes sense- Robert WOULD kill Jon if he were Lyanna's and not his, and definitely if he were Rhaegar's! Ned didn't even know Cat at all prior to this, and if he promised Lyanna not to tell Jon's parentage then when he did get to know and love and trust her, what is the chance of Ned Stark, he who judges all those who break any oaths no matter the circumstances, breaking his word? Literally zero.

I don't think any of the points you bring up are unrealistical at all so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Also Jon's character and temperament is pretty different to Ned's (or Brandon's for that matter)

#12 Kalbowski

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 07:57 AM

While R+L+J is certainly possible, I will wait for Martin to let me know what is what and not try and get ahead of him.

This reply is really to a ton of posts in this thread that try and envision what Martin's ending will be and what place Jon and Dany will have in it. My point is that a lot of people have some pretty standard fantasy series endings in mind, and this seems very very unlikely to me. One of GRRM's main motivations that he has stated time and time again in every interview I have read on this series is to turn fantasy cliches on their heads. Almost nothing in the four books we have read goes as it would have in a "tradionally" structured heroic epic, the exact kind of stories Martin is so bothered by.

Whatever ending we get I'm sure will be strange and iconoclastic and different than anything that has gone before. Why write a wildly daring and rebellious story that battles fantasy conventions at every turn and then conform to those conventions at the ending? I don't pretend to have any good predictions about the ending, but one bet seems pretty sure: if it seems like it would happen one way in 85 percent of the novels on the Barnes and Noble fantasy rack, Martin will do it the other way, just like he did when the Mountain killed the Red Viper, Ned Stark was beheaded, and Jofffrey was killed by a Littlefinger/Tyrell plot and not by one of our protaganists to revenge his wrongs.

All I'm saying is while I don't have a clue how AoIAF will end, I see very little evidence that it will end like Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, The Sword of Shanarra, or Dragonlance. Those hoping for the Death Star blowing up and all the happy living heroes getting their medals while the Children of the Forest dance as flowery vines grow over the walls of Harrenhall are going to be quite disappointed.

Wow! This a damn good post that really puts a lot of things in perspective. We are all probably wrong about most everything that we put up here! It is still a hell of a lot of fun to try, but I am pretty Sure Martin will surprise most all of us.

But not with Jon's parents. That is definitely going to be Rhaegar and Lyanna! /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

Edited by Kalbowski, 23 June 2011 - 08:03 AM.


#13 Kalbowski

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 08:10 AM

Can anyone tell me what promise, that haunts Ned for 14 years (the exact age of Jon), he could have possibly made to Lyanna that doesn't have to do with Jon being her child?

And, for God's sake, please don't say to buried at Winterfell. Why the hell would that haunt Ned. If that is it, I will literally scoop my own eyes out with a spoon!

#14 Ser Pistus

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:21 AM

In the first book the R+L story is all around, everybody dreams and talks about it. In the next 3 books, almost nothing. Stannis, Cat, Tywin, the Viper, Prince Doran might recall the case, but no. Dany even tries to pull it out of Selmy, but he says nothing significant.

On the other side, the issue of Jon's mother turns up only once between Arya and Ned Dayne, and nothing else anywhere.

A crackpot theory: while writing Thrones, GRRM thought this will be something serious in the story, but later changed his mind.

#15 Kalbowski

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:29 AM

In the first book the R+L story is all around, everybody dreams and talks about it. In the next 3 books, almost nothing. Stannis, Cat, Tywin, the Viper, Prince Doran might recall the case, but no. Dany even tries to pull it out of Selmy, but he says nothing significant.

On the other side, the issue of Jon's mother turns up only once between Arya and Ned Dayne, and nothing else anywhere.

A crackpot theory: while writing Thrones, GRRM thought this will be something serious in the story, but later changed his mind.


So, you are saying that the promise that Ned made Lyanna will not play a significant role in the series?

Just asking. No wiseassery going on here.

#16 Ser Pistus

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:33 AM

So, you are saying that the promise that Ned made Lyanna will not play a significant role in the series?

Yes, probably not. After all, Ned is dead, Lyanna is dead, even Cat is dead (but unfortunately not dead enough). I cannot see how GRRM can make anything significant out of this whole issue after completely ignoring it for 15 years.

Edited by Ser Pistus, 23 June 2011 - 09:34 AM.


#17 Stanley Fernandez

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:37 AM

also the review of the new DWD says there will be some indication of John's parentage in the book, if he is the Son of Ned then all we need to know is his mother, there needs to be know big deal made out of his parents. if there is a story behind his birth then surely Ned is not his father

#18 Kalbowski

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 09:51 AM

Yes, probably not. After all, Ned is dead, Lyanna is dead, even Cat is dead (but unfortunately not dead enough). I cannot see how GRRM can make anything significant out of this whole issue after completely ignoring it for 15 years.


Seems like that would be pretty sloppy writing to me. I think that he will address it and that it will be through Howland Reed or Wylla or one of Reed's kids.

And on that point, I think that GRRM addresses it in Meera's story in ASOS and in Dany's vision of a blue flower on the wall in ACOK. But those are indirect and can be interpretted in different ways. I will be dissatisfied if the promise is not addressed in later volumes, however. It just seems incredibly sloppy. But to each his own.

#19 mormont

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 10:56 AM

[mod] Discuss the issues politely, please. Disagreement is fine, disrespect is not. [/mod]

#20 LadyMary

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 11:10 AM

I know this is a little off topic, but do we know that Dany has the same type of connection to her dragons as the Stark children and Jon have with their wolves? Perhaps I missed it but I don't think Daenerys has dreams in which she sees through the eyes of her dragons. It could be something that will come later in the series, if it hasn't happen yet. She certainly has a bond with all the dragons who see her as their mother figure, but that seems to be very different than what the Starks (at least Bran, Arya, and Robb) and Jon have with the Dire Wolves. She had dreams before the birth of the dragons which a dragon played an important role, but this too seems like a different type of connection. Even further off topic, I've always thought the real reason for the Targaryen practice of sibling marriage has to do with an attempt to maintain the ability to have just this type of connection with dragons. I'm willing to bet Aegon the Conqueror and his sister had just this sort of special ability. Anyway, your post just stirred my interest and I thought I'd throw in my two cents.


Yes and no? I mean, there's no evidence that Daenerys is a warg (maybe that's a strictly Northron thing) but I would say baby dragons nursing at her breasts is... a special kind of connection. She "gave birth" to them, they seem to react to her moods in the same way that the direwolves do to the Stark children. The Starks and Daenerys have dreams that are heavily involved with their respective sigils. The dragons seem connected to magic in a way the direwolves are, just different manifestations. We don't see Lannisters keeping pet/protector lions and dreaming lion dreams, or Baratheon's raising and dreaming about stags (not sure about the Greyjoys and the Kraken).

I'll probably regret bringing this up but, I refute that "Dany is the last dragon" if "dragon" means just having Targ blood. Stannis is still alive and his daughter Shireen, as well as Jon Snow (assuming R+L=J). If someone is making the argument that Dany is the last pure-blooded dragon, or the last "true" dragon (as in possessing an innate ability to raise dragons from stone), perhaps she is. But that doesn't have any relevance to this debate about whether Jon is the son of Rhaegar or not.

As others have said, chronologically, Danaerys is younger than Jon as well as being a Targ on both sides, but that doesn't mean Jon is not part Targaryen.

As for the conclusion that Jon being on the Wall means he can't be a Targaryen, I think BloodRaven would beg to differ.

Edited by LadyMary, 23 June 2011 - 11:50 AM.