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R+L=J v.53


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:52 PM

Carry on.

#2 Nami

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:54 PM

You think Jon's gonna find out about his parentage in Winds?
even if he doesn't, I think the clues are gonna be bigger and way more obvious in this book

#3 Addam of Hull

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:56 PM

Probably not yet, but I do expect we'll see more of House Dayne in TWOW and they'll end up providing some new clues.

#4 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:01 PM

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practised in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the KG at ToJ on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in lineany time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the KG might have stayed at ToJ, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)

R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

R+L=J v.47 (thread forty-seven)

R+L=J v. 48 (thread forty-eight)

R+L=J v.49 (thread forty-nine)

R+L=J v. 50 (thread fifty)

R+L=J v.51 (thread fifty-one)


R+L=J v.52 (thread fifty-two)

Edited by Lady Gwynhyfvar, 26 June 2013 - 08:03 PM.


#5 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:07 PM


It also says they fear iron on the wiki, so I don't know. But aside from the KOW I can't find any text of iron anything other than lanterns... /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' />



nenya posted this with quotes about iron in the "Old Gods, Cold Gods and Starks" thread. This is definitely heresy territory, but loosely applies here since it has to do with Starks and the Wall. One thing that struck me is the prevalence of iron in the descriptions of Winterfell and the Wall. Per Alia's post in v.52, I'd say there is definitely some warding going on.

Edited by Lady Gwynhyfvar, 26 June 2013 - 08:08 PM.


#6 Ribupr

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:37 PM

The guy who started the first thread of R+L=J has done more damage than what the Japanese did to Pearl Harbor. Fuckin 53??? Damn.

#7 Ygrain

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:03 AM

In case someone missed this in the thread about Oberyn vs Gregor comic thread, the ToJ scene as a comic:

http://mccomseycomix...-an-adaptation/

#8 Nami

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:24 AM

Someone mentioned and it made me think
During Ned's fight with the KG, Lyanna was screaming his name, maybe for help?
Maybe her stay in the TOJ wasn't that pleasing on the last few months and maybe Rhaegar was keeping her prisoner?

Edited by Nami, 27 June 2013 - 12:25 AM.


#9 Ygrain

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:41 AM

Someone mentioned and it made me think
During Ned's fight with the KG, Lyanna was screaming his name, maybe for help?
Maybe her stay in the TOJ wasn't that pleasing on the last few months and maybe Rhaegar was keeping her prisoner?

I don't think she was screaming at all, it was Vayon Poole's voice mixing into the dream. Ned responds to it "I promise", which belongs to a later scene, not to the fight.

#10 Onna Lewyys

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:03 AM

Isn't the popular theory that she was screaming while in childbirth? Women do tend to do that.

#11 Ygrain

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:06 AM

Isn't the popular theory that she was screaming while in childbirth? Women do tend to do that.

The popular theory is that she gave birth several days before and was dying of childbed fever when Ned arrived.

#12 Onna Lewyys

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:20 AM

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I'm new to the forums, and I don't really feel like digging through 52 threads. I was re-reading Jon/Arya parts of the books the other day (favorite siblings!!!), and they have this exchange near the beginning of AGOT:

"The Lannisters are proud," Jon observed. "You'd think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. [Joffrey] makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's."
"The woman is important too!" Arya protested.
Jon chuckled. "Perhaps you should do the same thing, little sister. Wed Tully to Stark in your arms."

- Arya I

So do you think Jon will wed Targaryen to Stark in his arms when he finds out his parentage? Technically he would be a Targaryen, but having been raised by Ned as a son, I can't believe for a second that he would just let go of that part of himself and his life. Starks are proud too. And the woman is important.

#13 Nami

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:28 AM

Isn't the popular theory that she was screaming while in childbirth? Women do tend to do that.


She was screaming Ned's name
"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

#14 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:45 AM

She was screaming Ned's name
"As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. Eddard! she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death."

Consider this- Lyanna is in the Tower, sick unto death with childbed fever. She hears horses, perhaps drags herself to a window and sees her brother, then she hears the sound of steel on steel and the sounds of men dying. What would she do? Scream her brother's name perhaps?
In typical GRRM fashion, we are given a hint to this in another scene, at another time. When Sansa was locked in the tallest tower of Maegor's Holdfast by Cersei while the Lannisters arrest Ned and execute Stark men, she hears the sound of steel on steel, thinks how it is different than the sounds of training, which she had heard every day of her life, and is frightened. She goes to the door and calls for her father.

(Btw- Check out the comic Ygrain posted, this interpretation is very visceral there.)

Also, Ygrain is correct in noting that the voice calling his name is actually Vayon Poole. Ned incorporates it into his dream. As GRRM has told us, it is a fever dream, the nature of which is to be somewhat jumbled. It shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as a photograph of the events, more like a painting based on memory.

Edited by Lady Gwynhyfvar, 27 June 2013 - 05:47 AM.


#15 Ygrain

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:50 AM

Consider this- Lyanna is in the Tower, sick unto death with childbed fever. She hears horses, perhaps drags herself to a window and sees her brother, then she hears the sound of steel on steel and the sounds of men dying. What would she do? Scream her brother's name perhaps?
In typical GRRM fashion, we are given a hint to this in another scene, at another time. When Sansa was locked in the tallest tower of Maegor's Holdfast by Cersei while the Lannisters arrest Ned and execute Stark men, she hears the sound of steel on steel, thinks how it is different than the sounds of training, which she had heard every day of her life, and is frightened. She goes to the door and calls for her father.

(Btw- Check out the comic Ygrain posted, this interpretation is very visceral there.)

Also, Ygrain is correct in noting that the voice calling his name is actually Vayon Poole. Ned incorporates it into his dream. As GRRM has told us, it is a fever dream, the nature of which is to be somewhat jumbled. It shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as a photograph of the events, more like a painting based on memory.

I could perhaps add that I'd expect Lyanna address her brother Ned (Promise me, Ned), not Eddard.

#16 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:54 AM

I could perhaps add that I'd expect Lyanna address her brother Ned (Promise me, Ned), not Eddard.

Yes, I think that's the key to understanding that it's Poole's voice intruding into the dream, and being incorporated in it until it became too insistent to ignore.

#17 FrozenFire3

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:30 AM

I could perhaps add that I'd expect Lyanna address her brother Ned (Promise me, Ned), not Eddard.


Yes, I think that's the key to understanding that it's Poole's voice intruding into the dream, and being incorporated in it until it became too insistent to ignore.


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' /> It is very effectively depicted in the official graphic novel adaptation: http://www.previewsw...OFTHRONES13.pdf

Edited by FrozenFire3, 27 June 2013 - 06:33 AM.


#18 Squarely Rooted

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:38 AM

Probably not yet, but I do expect we'll see more of House Dayne in TWOW and they'll end up providing some new clues.


Yes! It's 100% Chekhov's gun: you don't keep strewing your story with mysterious and compelling Daynes, have both contemporary Daynes become increasingly prominent in the story and Daynes of the past grow more important in memory and then...not have some big Dayne-related payoff.

I try to shy away from definitive predictions or wild theorizing but it seems pretty clear to me that there are a lot of Dayne-related threads that could come up in a big way in TWoW.

#19 FrozenFire3

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:06 AM

Exactly some ppl seem to think that if Jon's storyline ends up on a good note then that somehow diminishes from the rest of the story or somehow guarantees that the whole story will have a cliche happy ending, which is beyond absurd. Are ppl forgetting that Jon isn't the only huge character still left in the story? GRRM said there would be a 'bittersweet' ending, so if Jon's storyline ends sweet then does that mean the whole story will end that way? Of course not, because there are still characters like Dany, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Davos, Jamie, Brienne, Theon, and many more that GRRM could give a very bitter ending that greatly effects the overall story. So the ppl that seem to be virtually obsessed with Jon having a doom and gloomed ending because they think that's the only way the overall story can end in a non cliche way, really need to wake up and stop thinking as if Jon is the only character that matters in effecting the overall mood of the story......


I absolutely agree with you. There are endless ways to end the saga on a non-cliché more-sweet-than-bitter note for Jon. Not to mention how very /rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' /> inducing would be to have Jon 'murdered', then 'resurrected' to eventually kill him for good at the end of the saga. It's just that knowing GRRM... well, let's say I try to prepare for disappointment. Just in case /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

I know your out and about, but thought you might appreciate the imagry, especially at the end.
Take Care! /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Bfa4ylhXuu4


Aw, very much appreciated indeed /love.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':love:' /> Wolves, blue roses and giant moons... Perfect soundtrack for my perigee full moon night in Capri.

Edited by FrozenFire3, 27 June 2013 - 07:07 AM.


#20 WildBlood

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:10 AM

nenya posted this with quotes about iron in the "Old Gods, Cold Gods and Starks" thread. This is definitely heresy territory, but loosely applies here since it has to do with Starks and the Wall. One thing that struck me is the prevalence of iron in the descriptions of Winterfell and the Wall. Per Alia's post in v.52, I'd say there is definitely some warding going on.


That is interesting That Winterfell and the Wall are described with all that iron, and the KOW with their iron swords. I think there is definitely something there. And I have to think that Old Nan is a reliable source with what we have found out from her stories in the past.

On a side note about Will in the tree in the prologue:

He put it between his teeth to keep both hands free for climbing. The taste of cold iron in his mouth gave him comfort.

He seems to have an iron sword so maybe ghost's shadaow was right and the NW does all have iron swords, which makes me think it is for a particular reason.

Edited by WildBlood, 27 June 2013 - 07:12 AM.