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R+L = J v 62


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:08 PM

Have at it.

#2 Mladen

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:10 PM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

#3 YUNG LYANNA

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:22 PM

Hi.

So, I'm familiar with the main points of R+L=J & I believe it to be true, but I'm unclear on a couple of details. Hopefully you guys can help..

I saw on another thread someone posted that Jon was already a few weeks old by the time Ned arrived at the TOJ... That seemed off to me because if Lyanna died in childbirth & Ned was there to witness her final moments, then obviously Jon could not have been born weeks before that. So, is there a consensus among believers of R+L=J that Ned arrived during the birthing process, or are there any theories about other ways Lyanna couldve died bloody?

I guess that ties into my next question. If Ned took Jon from the TOJ & brought him along to Starfall, how did he explain the baby? Like, If yung Edric was told that Jon was his milk brother & that his Wylla was Jon's true mother, then someone else must have been in on the plan, seeing as it takes 9 months to birth a human being and Ned showed up WITH A BABY. I know there has to be something I'm missing. Did Ned hit up Starfall when he was rallying lords for the rebellion? A prior visit would be the only way that passing off Jon as the wet nurse's baby would make sense. Do we assume Wylla was with Lyanna at the TOJ & Ned took both her and the baby to Starfall, thus eliminating my confusion entirely?! That would make so much sense to my brain.

#4 Ygrain

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:37 PM

Hi.

So, I'm familiar with the main points of R+L=J & I believe it to be true, but I'm unclear on a couple of details. Hopefully you guys can help..

I saw on another thread someone posted that Jon was already a few weeks old by the time Ned arrived at the TOJ... That seemed off to me because if Lyanna died in childbirth & Ned was there to witness her final moments, then obviously Jon could not have been born weeks before that. So, is there a consensus among believers of R+L=J that Ned arrived during the birthing process, or are there any theories about other ways Lyanna couldve died bloody?

I guess that ties into my next question. If Ned took Jon from the TOJ & brought him along to Starfall, how did he explain the baby? Like, If yung Edric was told that Jon was his milk brother & that his Wylla was Jon's true mother, then someone else must have been in on the plan, seeing as it takes 9 months to birth a human being and Ned showed up WITH A BABY. I know there has to be something I'm missing. Did Ned hit up Starfall when he was rallying lords for the rebellion? A prior visit would be the only way that passing off Jon as the wet nurse's baby would make sense. Do we assume Wylla was with Lyanna at the TOJ & Ned took both her and the baby to Starfall, thus eliminating my confusion entirely?! That would make so much sense to my brain.

Hello and welcome on the thread.
It is assumed that Lyanna died of puerperal fever (blood+fever indicated by the text), which might be about a fortnight since the birth itself. Postpartum bleeding takes weeks even normally and with this conditions is even increased.
And yes, Wylla's presence at ToJ is assumed, as well, because Jon had to be fed somehow and because there was at least one more person present whose identity we do not know ("they" found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body - one being Howland Reed, the other or others are never identified)

#5 Mladen

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:38 PM

Hi.

So, I'm familiar with the main points of R+L=J & I believe it to be true, but I'm unclear on a couple of details. Hopefully you guys can help..

I saw on another thread someone posted that Jon was already a few weeks old by the time Ned arrived at the TOJ... That seemed off to me because if Lyanna died in childbirth & Ned was there to witness her final moments, then obviously Jon could not have been born weeks before that. So, is there a consensus among believers of R+L=J that Ned arrived during the birthing process, or are there any theories about other ways Lyanna couldve died bloody?


Hi, eyomomo... Welcome to the thread.

Now, as for the exact date of Jon's birth, we don't know. We know it happened around Sack of King's Landing, according to GRRM. Now, it could have happened the exact day of Sack, or couple of weeks before and after it. All options are at the table. As for Lyanna's bed of blood, it doesn't change much. Post partum fever was quite common in medieval times, and it could have lasted long enough for Ned to come, weeks prior to Ned's arrival. Or simply, Jon could have been born that day... It is my opinion that Jon was born earlier and that Ned found Lyanna dying from post partum that lasted for some time.

If Ned took Jon from the TOJ & brought him along to Starfall, how did he explain the baby?


Most of us assume that Wylla was in ToJ being midwife to Lyanna. We know that Ned said "they found him"(meaning that Howland plus someone found him in Lyanna's room). So, him coming with Wylla and the baby could have explained everything...

Did Ned hit up Starfall when he was rallying lords for the rebellion?


No. Ned hadn't visited Starfall before he gave Ashara Arthur's sword.

ETA: Ygrain, you /ninja.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ninja:' /> me...

Edited by Mladen, 16 September 2013 - 11:47 PM.


#6 YUNG LYANNA

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:50 PM

Okay, that clears things up a whole lot. I had wrongfully assumed she died immediately after giving birth. Ned bringing Wylla from the TOJ makes perfect sense compared to the other scenario, especially since she would probably have a wet-nurse on hand for the baby anyway.

Thank you!

#7 VaramyrSixchins

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:53 AM

So, is it the consensus that Wylla made the trip to WF w Ned & is the wetnurse for Jon that Cat mentions?

#8 Ygrain

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:56 AM

So, is it the consensus that Wylla made the trip to WF w Ned & is the wetnurse for Jon that Cat mentions?

No, it is definitely not. The consensus, if any, is that having the woman who poises as Jon's mother, under the same roof as the offended wife, is definitely 1) bad taste and 2) dangerous for conspiracy, as she might slip some information.

#9 Jon Icefyre

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:51 AM

So I've been going back to look at some of the prophecies and how they might relate to the story going forward, along with how it could possibly correlate with R+L=J, and I found this interesting passage from the ADWD chapter where Tyrion asks Moqorro what he sees in the flames:

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"
"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

I'm still not 100% sure what to make out of this other than the 'false' part most likely meaning YG, and the 'old' part most likely meaning Bloodraven seeing as though Maester Aemon is dead, so I don't really see who else still livng other than Bloodraven could possibly be described as an 'old' dragon. But what about the, "bright and dark" part? It could just be referring to the actual colors of Dany's dragons but does anyone else think the, "bright and dark" part could instead, be talking about Dany and Jon? Dany as 'bright' seeing as though she's a Targ that has all the Valyrian features(silver hair, violet eyes) that one could easily describe as 'bright' physical features, to go along with her fiery charasmatic personality and her being well known as a Targ/queen throughout the world, therefore, making her stand out as a 'bright' dragon. Where as Jon is also a Targ if R+L=J is true, yet he has none of the Targ's 'bright' physical features and instead has Stark features from his mother Lyanna, with his hair being dark brown and his grey eyes that border black, which one could easily describe as 'dark' physical features. To go along with his sort of quite, melancholic, personality and the fact that his Targaryen heritage has up until now been kept a scerete, in addition to him currently being a brother of the NW, therefore making him the 'dark' dragon that does not stand out nearly as much as his 'bright' dragon counterpart in Dany. Almost as if to say that in this struggle/battle for power involving true and false dragons(Dany and YG) Jon will end up emerging as the dark horse candidate in all this?

I know this is definitely crack potty and to be honsest I haven't really thought this through at all yet lol, but I just wanted to throw it out there and see what some of your thoughts on this prophecy are....

Edited by Jon Icefyre, 17 September 2013 - 02:45 AM.


#10 corbon

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:47 AM

No, it is definitely not. The consensus, if any, is that having the woman who poises as Jon's mother, under the same roof as the offended wife, is definitely 1) bad taste and 2) dangerous for conspiracy, as she might slip some information.


There is no consensus.
1) She wasn't posing as Jon's mother in Winterfell (we are not even sure she is posing as Jon's mother in Starfall - Ned Dayne thinks she is Jon's mother, but his source for that is Allyria, who knows little or less and seems to have a confused version of events anyway, not Wylla), just his wetnurse. I think it would be blindingly obvious to most Winterfellians in very short time that she did not have a relationship with Ned Stark.nd its worth noting that there is no gossip of Wylla being the mother that we hear out of Winterfell, so if she was there, it was not posing as his mother...
2) No more dangerous, and perhaps less, than if she is elsewhere.

Consider if she is just the midwife, nothing more. The secret she has is Jon's Targaryen heritage, not some tryst with Ned. That secret could slip anywhere, but is no more likely to slip at Winterfell than anywhere else and much safer if it did slip in Winterfell.

#11 FrozenFire3

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:29 AM

So I've been going back to look at some of the prophecies and how they might relate to the story going forward, along with how it could possibly correlate with R+L=J, and I found this interesting passage from the ADWD chapter where Tyrion asks Moqorro what he sees in the flames:

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"
"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

I'm still not 100% sure what to make out of this other than the 'false' part most likely meaning YG, and the 'old' part most likely meaning Bloodraven seeing as though Maester Aemon is dead, so I don't really see who else still livng other than Bloodraven could possibly be described as an 'old' dragon. But what about the, "bright and dark" part? It could just be referring to the actual colors of Dany's dragons but does anyone else think the, "bright and dark" part could instead, be talking about Dany and Jon? Dany as 'bright' seeing as though she's a Targ that has all the Valyrian features(silver hair, violet eyes) that one could easily describe as 'bright' physical features, to go along with her fiery charasmatic personality and her being well known as a Targ/queen throughout the world, therefore, making her stand out as a 'bright' dragon. Where as Jon is also a Targ if R+L=J is true, yet he has none of the Targ's 'bright' physical features and instead has Stark features from his mother Lyanna, with his hair being dark brown and his grey eyes that border black, which one could easily describe as 'dark' physical features. To go along with his sort of quite, melancholic, personality and the fact that his Targaryen heritage has up until now been kept a scerete, in addition to him currently being a brother of the NW, therefore making him the 'dark' dragon that does not stand out nearly as much as his 'bright' dragon counterpart in Dany. Almost as if to say that in this struggle/battle for power involving true and false dragons(Dany and YG) Jon will end up emerging as the dark horse candidate in all this?

I know this is definitely crack potty and to be honsest I haven't really thought this through at all yet lol, but I just wanted to throw it out there and see what some of your thoughts on this prophecy are....


No so crackpotty imho /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> A few threads back I hypothesized the black rusty dragon washing up on the Quiet Isle to be a poetic metaphor for a dragon in black aka Jon. Moqorro's dark dragon could add an extra 'shade' to the analysis. Naturally we can't discard a moral connotation (bright/dark as good/evil) nor the Blackfyre interpretation, altough the Isle's dragon reveals ultimately a red 'soul'...
I'm very much intrigued by the 'Dragons old and young' btw /idea.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':idea:' />

Edited by FrozenFire3, 17 September 2013 - 03:47 AM.


#12 Ygrain

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:52 AM

No so crackpotty imho /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> A few threads back I hypothesized the black rusty dragon washing up on the Quiet Isle to be a poetic metaphor for a dragon in black aka Jon. Moqorro's dark dragon could add an extra 'shade' to the analysis. Naturally we can't discard a moral connotation (bright/dark as good/evil) nor the Blackfyre interpretation, altough the Isle's dragon reveals ultimately a red 'soul'...
I'm very much intrigued by the 'Dragons old and young' btw /idea.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':idea:' />

I've read that Bloodraven would qualify as an old dragon, but I wonder if "dragons old and new" implies that there should be more than one. Aemon would be, but had died by then, or not? Plus, that intriguing theory that Mel might be a child of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar, that would make Mel qualify, as well.

#13 Jon Icefyre

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:07 AM

I've read that Bloodraven would qualify as an old dragon, but I wonder if "dragons old and new" implies that there should be more than one. Aemon would be, but had died by then, or not? Plus, that intriguing theory that Mel might be a child of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar, that would make Mel qualify, as well.

Ya agreed, although it could also just be saying that if R+L=J is indeed revealed, then in a way, Jon would become a 'new' dragon seeing as though it would be the first time he himself along with the public acknowledges him as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen instead of him being identified as Ned Stark's bastard. So one could say that in itself, would make Jon a 'new' dragon as far as his own self indentity goes. Idk like I said, I still don't quite have a grip on this yet lol.

Edited by Jon Icefyre, 17 September 2013 - 04:52 AM.


#14 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:28 AM

I've read that Bloodraven would qualify as an old dragon, but I wonder if "dragons old and new" implies that there should be more than one. Aemon would be, but had died by then, or not? Plus, that intriguing theory that Mel might be a child of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar, that would make Mel qualify, as well.


Or the idea that Quaithe is Shiera /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#15 Alia of the knife

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

Hi.

So, I'm familiar with the main points of R+L=J & I believe it to be true, but I'm unclear on a couple of details. Hopefully you guys can help..

I saw on another thread someone posted that Jon was already a few weeks old by the time Ned arrived at the TOJ... That seemed off to me because if Lyanna died in childbirth & Ned was there to witness her final moments, then obviously Jon could not have been born weeks before that. So, is there a consensus among believers of R+L=J that Ned arrived during the birthing process, or are there any theories about other ways Lyanna couldve died bloody?

I guess that ties into my next question. If Ned took Jon from the TOJ & brought him along to Starfall, how did he explain the baby? Like, If yung Edric was told that Jon was his milk brother & that his Wylla was Jon's true mother, then someone else must have been in on the plan, seeing as it takes 9 months to birth a human being and Ned showed up WITH A BABY. I know there has to be something I'm missing. Did Ned hit up Starfall when he was rallying lords for the rebellion? A prior visit would be the only way that passing off Jon as the wet nurse's baby would make sense. Do we assume Wylla was with Lyanna at the TOJ & Ned took both her and the baby to Starfall, thus eliminating my confusion entirely?! That would make so much sense to my brain.


Welcome!!! /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

#16 FrozenFire3

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:01 PM

I've read that Bloodraven would qualify as an old dragon, but I wonder if "dragons old and new" implies that there should be more than one. Aemon would be, but had died by then, or not? Plus, that intriguing theory that Mel might be a child of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar, that would make Mel qualify, as well.


Ya agreed, although it could also just be saying that if R+L=J is indeed revealed, then in a way, Jon would become a 'new' dragon seeing as though it would be the first time he himself along with the public acknowledges him as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen instead of him being identified as Ned Stark's bastard. So one could say that in itself, would make Jon a 'new' dragon as far as his own self indentity goes. Idk like I said, I still don't quite have a grip on this yet lol.


Or the idea that Quaithe is Shiera /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />


And all these lost and found dragons take us back to that 'bright and dark' in relation to a possible good vs evil connotation...

#17 King of Winters

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:26 PM

Anyone think this, http://upload.wikime...(1485-1509).svg, is something towards Jon being a Targ, with the white dog and the red dragon together?

#18 Red.Queen

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:53 PM

Anyone think this, http://upload.wikime...(1485-1509).svg, is something towards Jon being a Targ, with the white dog and the red dragon together?

The Henry VII paralel is certainly interesting...


#19 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:57 PM

Anyone think this, http://upload.wikime...(1485-1509).svg, is something towards Jon being a Targ, with the white dog and the red dragon together?


Oh definitely! It came up a few threads ago. Jon as Henry VII, who unified two warring houses and ended an extremely bloody period in English history, is a very satisfying parallel. Not only that but the red dragon points to Jon's legitimacy.
Does anyone else think the Plantagenet proverb that surrounds the sigil- Honi soit qui mal y pense- is a fitting message for R and L haters? /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#20 Red.Queen

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:59 PM

Oh definitely! It came up a few threads ago. Jon as Henry VII, who unified two warring houses and ended an extremely bloody period in English history, is a very satisfying parallel. Not only that but the red dragon points to Jon's legitimacy.
Does anyone else think the Plantagenet proverb that surrounds the sigil- Honi soit qui mal y pense- is a fitting message for R and L haters? /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

I actually had to look for the meaning of that, but yes, it is very fitting: "Shamed be he who thinks evil of it".
/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />