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R+L=J v 61


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:19 PM

Continuum Threadum.

#2 Mladen

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:30 PM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

#3 WinterKing

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:57 PM

Why do we need discussion after the reference guide? It answers everything.

#4 Ser Creighton

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:17 PM

Why do we need discussion after the reference guide? It answers everything.


Cause some people enjoy the subject and are always looking for something new. You never know when you might stumble on to something no matter how often a topic is covered.

#5 Foothill

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:19 PM

I hate using the show as evidence as much as the next guy, but that farewell scene between Eddard and Jon in season one has to be included as "evidence"...red flags all over the place in that scene.

#6 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:03 PM

Maybe the most plausible theory out there, but still, I won't completely believe it until I see it in print from Martin's own hand.

#7 Apple Martini

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:15 PM

Maybe the most plausible theory out there, but still, I won't completely believe it until I see it in print from Martin's own hand.


Do you need to stick your hand in a fire to know that it's hot? /cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />

#8 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:46 PM

Do you need to stick your hand in a fire to know that it's hot? /cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />


No but I need to taste the stew to tell if it is as savory as it looks. /cool4.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cool4:' />

#9 Pero the first of His name

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:15 AM

Remember Ned?
How he made us all sad...
At King's Landing he could only end up dead.
Evenings he could have enjoyed Cat in their bed.
Gods, why was someone else not chosen in his stead?
And to the king whose armies in rebellion he once lead,
Robert, he promised that to the prince his daughter would be wed.

Lots of dangerous people around him he had
Yet he did not listen to what about trust LF said.
After about black hair he had read
Never was a there better time for the words of incest to be spread.
Not doing so made him prisoner of the crimson red.
Although for mercy, Sansa had plead,

Joffrey commanded to have his head.
Oh, the horror would beat the humour even out of Edd.
Nevertheless, at least GRRM did not make him undead...


#10 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:17 AM

Remember Ned?
How he made us all sad...
At King's Landing he could only end up dead.
Evenings he could have enjoyed Cat in their bed.
Gods, why was someone else not chosen in his stead?
And to the king whose armies in rebellion he once lead,
Robert, he promised that to the prince his daughter would be wed.

Lots of dangerous people around him he had
Yet he did not listen to what about trust LF said.
After about black hair he had read
Never was a there better time for the words of incest to be spread.
Not doing so made him prisoner of the crimson red.
Although for mercy, Sansa had plead,

Joffrey commanded to have his head.
Oh, the horror would beat the humour even out of Edd.
Nevertheless, at least GRRM did not make him undead...


Wrong thread maybe, put it in Ned appreciation thread if it exists or make one.

Awesome work sir. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />

#11 TheGlowCloud

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 12:59 AM

It might honestly be extreme fetching here, because I've gotten really attached to the idea of R+L = J, but I came across a Q&A GRRM did back in 2008. One of the questions was whether or not Lyanna and Harrenhal would be coming up again, and he affirmed the notion. Now, at this point, the Knight of the Laughing Tree had already been covered by Meera, and Ned has died (so any Lyanna scenes won't be coming from his memories). So, how would that be fitting in to the next few books? Honestly, the only person who would know anything on the topic would be Howland Reed. I'm obviously trying to make connections out of nothing, but this did give me a little hope.

#12 Pero the first of His name

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 01:26 AM

Wrong thread maybe, put it in Ned appreciation thread if it exists or make one.

Awesome work sir. /thumbsup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsup:' />


Thank you. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
If you look at a certain aspect of the song's composition you will see that it is not completely offtopic.

#13 Ygrain

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:05 AM

It might honestly be extreme fetching here, because I've gotten really attached to the idea of R+L = J, but I came across a Q&A GRRM did back in 2008. One of the questions was whether or not Lyanna and Harrenhal would be coming up again, and he affirmed the notion. Now, at this point, the Knight of the Laughing Tree had already been covered by Meera, and Ned has died (so any Lyanna scenes won't be coming from his memories). So, how would that be fitting in to the next few books? Honestly, the only person who would know anything on the topic would be Howland Reed. I'm obviously trying to make connections out of nothing, but this did give me a little hope.

Barristan was at HH, and he might drop some information without realizing how it fits in the big picture.
If Rhaegar and Lyanna married on the Isle of Faces, we can see it through Bran's access to the ww network.
Meera mentions that there is a sadder story to the wolf girl becoming QoLaB, so we might perhaps receive some more information from here (perhaps in connection with Bran's visions, to help him realize what he saw).

#14 Mladen

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:22 AM

Maybe the most plausible theory out there, but still, I won't completely believe it until I see it in print from Martin's own hand.


Do you need to stick your hand in a fire to know that it's hot? /cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />


Apple is right here. You do not need to have it all written to believe in its accuracy, especially with all the evidence provided to support it, and none against it. Look at reference guide, all the possible problems are solved, all the questions answered. Also, not to mention this is the only Jon's parentage theory that actually makes sense, not to mention timeline, plot reasons, and all sorts of things. This theory is basically "butler killed the guy" screaming before the novel is over. I believe you have read some mistery novels and solved the problem before the author has written it. It's the same thing.

Barristan was at HH, and he might drop some information without realizing how it fits in the big picture.


Howland, Barristan, Connington, Benjen - each of them could provide us with some information that fits in the big picture. Then there is Wylla, who can give us some more secon-hand informations, Jaime, as you said Bran through weirwood net, heck even BR... There are a lot of those that can give us pieces of evidence of what happened at Harrenhall.

#15 Arya kiddin'

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:29 AM

Apple is right here. You do not need to have it all written to believe in its accuracy, especially with all the evidence provided to support it, and none against it. Look at reference guide, all the possible problems are solved, all the questions answered. Also, not to mention this is the only Jon's parentage theory that actually makes sense, not to mention timeline, plot reasons, and all sorts of things. This theory is basically "butler killed the guy" screaming before the novel is over. I believe you have read some mistery novels and solved the problem before the author has written it. It's the same thing.



Howland, Barristan, Connington, Benjen - each of them could provide us with some information that fits in the big picture. Then there is Wylla, who can give us some more secon-hand informations, Jaime, as you said Bran through weirwood net, heck even BR... There are a lot of those that can give us pieces of evidence of what happened at Harrenhall.


You know, I do believe it, I have gone through the references and the evidences against it are feeble. All I want is a green signal from GRRM that it is indeed right. And I do believe this will happen in WoW.

#16 Red.Queen

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:30 AM

I hate using the show as evidence as much as the next guy, but that farewell scene between Eddard and Jon in season one has to be included as "evidence"...red flags all over the place in that scene.

Absolutely. The "You might not have my name, but you have my blood" line tells a lot.


#17 FrozenFire3

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:40 AM

Absolutely. The "You might not have my name, but you have my blood" line tells a lot.


Not to mention "I Promise" /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#18 Red.Queen

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:49 AM

Not to mention "I Promise" /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

Yes, that too! /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


#19 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:16 AM

Apple is right here. You do not need to have it all written to believe in its accuracy, especially with all the evidence provided to support it, and none against it. Look at reference guide, all the possible problems are solved, all the questions answered. Also, not to mention this is the only Jon's parentage theory that actually makes sense, not to mention timeline, plot reasons, and all sorts of things. This theory is basically "butler killed the guy" screaming before the novel is over. I believe you have read some mistery novels and solved the problem before the author has written it. It's the same thing.

I agree completely. To add to this a simple bit of logic- as in any good mystery, we only have all the clues because they are written in the text already, hiding in plain sight for all the world to see.

Howland, Barristan, Connington, Benjen - each of them could provide us with some information that fits in the big picture. Then there is Wylla, who can give us some more secon-hand informations, Jaime, as you said Bran through weirwood net, heck even BR... There are a lot of those that can give us pieces of evidence of what happened at Harrenhall.

Thank you, and preceding posters, for making me think about this. Finally I begin to have an idea of how my Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth theory may be significant /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

#20 FrozenFire3

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:42 AM

I agree completely. To add to this a simple bit of logic- as in any good mystery, we only have all the clues because they are written in the text already, hiding in plain sight for all the world to see.


Thank you, and preceding posters, for making me think about this. Finally I begin to have an idea of how my Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth theory may be significant /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />


Yellow coat of arms, check. Hate for the Lannisters, check. The Ghost of High Heart's kissing little stunt, check... I'm officially intrigued.