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R+L=J v 67


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 07:48 PM

[MOD]

 

Let's keep this version a little more polite than the last, please.

 

[/MOD]

 

 

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty) 

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one) 

 

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

 

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

 

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

 

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

 

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)


Edited by Stubby, 15 December 2013 - 10:26 AM.


#2 Alia of the knife

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 07:58 PM

@Lyse Stark,

 

I completely agree that Tywins obsession helped bring about the Lannisters downfall, and IMHO, I think when you go back to Jamies solemn vision of Joanna, that vision is meant to convey the sadness that she feels for her family and perhaps the loss of her childrens happiness due to Tywins obsession.

 

I have another theory that Rhaegar along with Aerys, rejected Cersei, which makes Cersei's lifetime of "what ifs" even more ironic and all her bitterness for naught..


Edited by Alia of the knife, 14 December 2013 - 08:02 PM.


#3 Lyse Stark

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:10 PM

@Lyse Stark,
 
I completely agree that Tywins obsession helped bring about the Lannisters downfall, and IMHO, I think when you go back to Jamies solemn vision of Joanna, that vision is meant to convey the sadness that she feels for her family and perhaps the loss of her childrens happiness due to Tywins obsession.
 
I have another theory that Rhaegar along with Aerys, rejected Cersei, which makes Cersei's lifetime of "what ifs" even more ironic and all her bitterness for naught..


Yes I also believe Rhaegar rejected Cersei because he saw something in her that didn't sit well with him, and told Aerys that he shouldn't accept Tywin's offer.

#4 Han Snow

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:11 PM


Really, and who gets to decide those points, whether they be education, beliefs or opinions? There have been many "intellectuals" who have come to the "rescue" of the "unwashed masses" only to lead them to slaughter.

 

Many intellectuals who led unwashed masses to slaughter? Really? You're mixing your Hitlers with Einsteins. Proper unbiased education based on facts can and will always do nothing but GOOD and claiming something else is lying through your teeth or promoting some crazy agenda

 

 

"Intellect" that is arrogant and absent wisdom is as dangerous as religious fanaticism and zealotry.

That is true and has nothing to do with what I wrote earlier. Absolutely nothing.

 

 

 
My point was that just because I believe something absent the facts, it doesn't make me right or wrong, or the person I'm debating right or wrong until it's resolved by the person that actually does have the answer.
 
(It's not like Martin is like to show up on my doorstep with a million dollar check from "Fantasy Clearing House Sweepstakes" because I got some theory right).

You are jumping in your own mouth, you realize that? You are basically claiming now that R+L=J theory is not backed by anything concrete in the text, that there are no facts to back the claim. If that is the case so be it. All that was said by the accusing users about R+L=J supporters must be true then.

 

 

So, I will always have an open mind and root for open forums.

Did you even read my post that you quoted?

 

 

Having an opinion means jack squat if you are primitive, stupid or uninformed! Stubbornness and unwillingness to change also doesn't help. If someone came here and presented good, hard evidence in the text that for instance, Jon is actually son of Tywin and Rhaella Targaryen I'd applaud if it were backed up by the text.

Stubbornness and unwillingness to change = open mind = open forums = If someone came here and presented good, hard evidence in the text that for instance, Jon is actually son of Tywin and Rhaella Targaryen I'd applaud if it were backed up by the text.

 

Good night.


Edited by Han Snow, 14 December 2013 - 08:13 PM.


#5 Alia of the knife

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:29 PM

LYSE STARK YOU ARE A GENIUS!!!!!, (I'm sorry, was that loud)? :drool:

 

For the longest time, something was bothering me about the whole Casterly Rock reception and the abrupt ending.

While there seemed to be tension between Aerys and Tywin, I never thought Aerys would go to such trouble to humiliate Tywin, so the betrothal felt like it was on the verge of happening, until something went awry.

And that something was Rhaegar himself, though I'm sure it made it easier for Aerys to turn it down.



#6 Lyse Stark

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:42 PM

Thanks.

I'm sure that Rhaegar had seen the earliest signs of Cersei's power hungry narcissism there at the reception, so he chose to reject her because he knew that if she were to become Queen, she would be one of the worst. As a result, he chose Lyanna over Cersei because Lyanna was honourable, a quality Rhaegar desired.

#7 Dany Girl

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:43 PM

Yes I also believe Rhaegar rejected Cersei because he saw something in her that didn't sit well with him, and told Aerys that he shouldn't accept Tywin's offer.


The only problem I have with this is that I don't think Cersei ever actually met Rhaegar. He may have heard things about her from other people though that made him dislike the idea of marrying her. Like if he suspected she was banging her brother, you know, that guy in the Kingsguard, would he want to marry someone with their former lover in close and constant proximity? I'm not arguing that he knew Jaime was nailing her, but if he did suspect I think it would have been a good reason to reject her.

#8 Alia of the knife

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 08:58 PM

Thanks.

I'm sure that Rhaegar had seen the earliest signs of Cersei's power hungry narcissism there at the reception, so he chose to reject her because he knew that if she were to become Queen, she would be one of the worst. As a result, he chose Lyanna over Cersei because Lyanna was honourable, a quality Rhaegar desired.

Right, there is such a buildup to their meeting.
When she looked into his eyes and saw sadness, I think he saw her true nature, sealing her fate and fulfilling Maggie's prophecy.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 14 December 2013 - 08:59 PM.


#9 Lyse Stark

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:06 PM

And with my thoughts on the Lannisters's downfall;

Tywin's powerlust wound up destroying his house, and Joanna clearly saw it. She wanted her children to be happy, but Tywin denied it.

Now to the fact that he ordered the killing of Elia Martell, Rhaenys and Aegon VI, that was strike one against his House. Daenerys won't be able to forgive Tywin for what he did to the children, and I doubt that she will.

The second strike was Joffrey's beheading of Eddard Stark. This act angered the North and the Starks, and I think that the Lannisters and Freys are in for some karmic retribution by both the Starks and the Old Gods.

The third and last nail in the Lannisters's coffin is Cersei accusing Margaery of adultery. This results in the ruination of the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and I think that at this point, the Lannisters are nearly finished.

So my prediction is that the rest of the Lannister clan will be slaughtered by the Others, after Tommen and Myrcella is killed by Cersei's enemies. Cersei then burns King's Landing when Jon comes to claim the Iron Throne to help repel the WW, but Jaime strangles her. Both dies amongst the flames.

#10 Bratchild

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:28 PM

And with my thoughts on the Lannisters's downfall;

Tywin's powerlust wound up destroying his house, and Joanna clearly saw it. She wanted her children to be happy, but Tywin denied it.

Now to the fact that he ordered the killing of Elia Martell, Rhaenys and Aegon VI, that was strike one against his House. Daenerys won't be able to forgive Tywin for what he did to the children, and I doubt that she will.

The second strike was Joffrey's beheading of Eddard Stark. This act angered the North and the Starks, and I think that the Lannisters and Freys are in for some karmic retribution by both the Starks and the Old Gods.

The third and last nail in the Lannisters's coffin is Cersei accusing Margaery of adultery. This results in the ruination of the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and I think that at this point, the Lannisters are nearly finished.

So my prediction is that the rest of the Lannister clan will be slaughtered by the Others, after Tommen and Myrcella is killed by Cersei's enemies. Cersei then burns King's Landing when Jon comes to claim the Iron Throne to help repel the WW, but Jaime strangles her. Both dies amongst the flames.

I am not sure who I feel the most pity for-the children or the small folk.The children will die because of Cersei's actions and the smallfolk get slaughtered,abused.raped,tortured,etc constantly.

 

I would like to think that perhaps Jon will be a better ruler as he at least had a good role model in the Ned....but he may be too noble to rule a huge kingdom.



#11 Alia of the knife

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 09:38 PM

And with my thoughts on the Lannisters's downfall;

Tywin's powerlust wound up destroying his house, and Joanna clearly saw it. She wanted her children to be happy, but Tywin denied it.

Now to the fact that he ordered the killing of Elia Martell, Rhaenys and Aegon VI, that was strike one against his House. Daenerys won't be able to forgive Tywin for what he did to the children, and I doubt that she will.

The second strike was Joffrey's beheading of Eddard Stark. This act angered the North and the Starks, and I think that the Lannisters and Freys are in for some karmic retribution by both the Starks and the Old Gods.

The third and last nail in the Lannisters's coffin is Cersei accusing Margaery of adultery. This results in the ruination of the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and I think that at this point, the Lannisters are nearly finished.

So my prediction is that the rest of the Lannister clan will be slaughtered by the Others, after Tommen and Myrcella is killed by Cersei's enemies. Cersei then burns King's Landing when Jon comes to claim the Iron Throne to help repel the WW, but Jaime strangles her. Both dies amongst the flames.

And invoking the imagery of the lion that moves in, taking over the Pride and replacing it with their own, or the Reins of Castamere, the same will happen to them.
The Old gods have already enacted some Karma when Darkstar tries to kill Jaimie and Cerseis daughter, Myrcella as Jaimie tried to kill Bran, so even in Dorne, the old ones have a long reach.
As for the rest of your summation, Jaimie and Cersei leaving the world as they came into it is also poetic justice, and again, I totally agree.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 14 December 2013 - 09:39 PM.


#12 moon on the willow

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:16 PM

Does Rheagar has the ability to see the "power hungry narcissism" in Cersei? I mean , the man called Rheagar couldn't even see the monster in Gregor Clegane. It is Rheagar himself knighted the monster who murdered his wife and children.



#13 Fire Eater

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:21 PM

Many intellectuals who led unwashed masses to slaughter? Really? You're mixing your Hitlers with Einsteins. Proper unbiased education based on facts can and will always do nothing but GOOD and claiming something else is lying through your teeth or promoting some crazy agenda

 

Intelligence isn't synonymous with virtue. Education is knowledge, and knowledge is power, but what to do with that power rests solely in the hands of the person given it. I think what Alia of the White Knife was saying, to quote Michael Crichton "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."

 

Yes I also believe Rhaegar rejected Cersei because he saw something in her that didn't sit well with him, and told Aerys that he shouldn't accept Tywin's offer.

 

That is plausible. Does anyone think it possible that Rhaegar had a dream about Cersei and her terrible future that led him to ask his father not to accept Tywin's proposal?


Edited by Fire Eater, 15 December 2013 - 04:55 PM.


#14 Alia of the knife

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 10:58 PM

@ moon on the willow, (forgive my inability to quote you directly as something is squirrely).

 

I had thought of that too, but one of Martins genius in depicting such a character as Cersei is that he writes her in a way where she thinks shes very clever, and no one else sees her for what she is, so she doesn't bother to hide anything.

It even occurred to Tyrion that one of the reasons that Jaimie and Cersei loved each other was because they saw themselves reflected in the others gaze- another nod to Narcissus and Narcissism.

 

With someone like the Mountain, as with most abusers, they learn to hide their natures very well. 

 

Also, someone had posited a while ago that the knighting may have been done as a favor to Tywin, so perhaps after the Targaryen refusal of his daughter, Rhaegar thought it politic to appease him by giving him this favor. 


Edited by Alia of the knife, 14 December 2013 - 11:00 PM.


#15 Winds of Winter blow cold

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:34 PM

Was it really that nasty on the last thread?

Edit: I guess it was!


Edited by Winds of Winter blow cold, 14 December 2013 - 11:39 PM.


#16 moon on the willow

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:41 PM

@ moon on the willow, (forgive my inability to quote you directly as something is squirrely).

 

I had thought of that too, but one of Martins genius in depicting such a character as Cersei is that he writes her in a way where she thinks shes very clever, and no one else sees her for what she is, so she doesn't bother to hide anything.

It even occurred to Tyrion that one of the reasons that Jaimie and Cersei loved each other was because they saw themselves reflected in the others gaze- another nod to Narcissus and Narcissism.

 

With someone like the Mountain, as with most abusers, they learn to hide their natures very well. 

 

Also, someone had posited a while ago that the knighting may have been done as a favor to Tywin, so perhaps after the Targaryen refusal of his daughter, Rhaegar thought it politic to appease him by giving him this favor. 

OMG. When do we agree on the idea that “With someone like the Mountain, as with most abusers, they learn to hide their natures very well. ”? The Mountain is a monster, a savage giant, but when did he learn to "hide their natures well" ? In Arya's eyes did the Mountain seem like a man who knew to hide his nature? In Jaime's eyes? In Sandor's eyes? Or In Oberyn's eyes? 

Don't forget that when the first time Rhaegar saw Cersei, she was 10-years old, while Gergor was 16-years old when he was knighted by Rheager. If Rheager so wise to see the "power hungry narcissism" in a little girl, how could he failed to see the monster in a teenager? By knighted by a important figure is a great honor and look at Jaime, who was so proud to be knighted by the Sword of the Morning. As the seven-kingdom crown prince, didn't Rheager has the duty to honor the right people, at least not the one who pushed his little brother's face into fire?

Even if Rheager had to do this as a favor to Tywin, at that time the Targaryen not only refused Tywin‘s daughter but also stole Tywin's heir, and Tywin was so angry that he resigned his position and return to Casterly Rock! How could knighting Tywin's dog be considered a enough favor to Tywin? It's absolutely useless!



#17 Han Snow

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:48 AM

 

Intelligence isn't synonymous with virtue. Education is knowledge, and knowledge is power, but what to do with that power rests solely in the hands of the person given it. I think what Alia of the White Knife was saying, to quote Michael Crichton "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."

 

This is frustrating beyond belief. Somehow this got into discussing intelligence as a virtue.The thing is I did not mention the word intelligence in any post of mine. That is something that Alia did. You don't have to be intelligent to know something is right or wrong, logical or illogical, that it makes sense or that it doesn't.

 

I'm guessing that me telling her a simple truth: that not all opinions are equally valuable and not all beliefs are valid and true, did not sit well for her for some reason. Maybe she thinks I'm arrogant for telling it as it is, I don't know.

 

 

But I would like to expand my answer to this part of her post

 

 

who gets to decide those points, whether they be education, beliefs or opinions?

 

I personally believe and take R+L=J as a fact. There is so many parts of the text that point to it that I take it for granted much in the same way I take the theory of evolution, which is still considered just that, a theory.

Now you ask who should educate people on the matter? Well maybe educate is the wrong word, but people like ygrain or mt.lion have been answering questions, posting the relevant parts of the text which point to the proper answers so I view them as some sort of educators. You can't participate in a debate with an approach everyone is right, no one is wrong, because this simply is not true. When people come here and claim Jon is Aegon without a shred of evidence and bar any logic whatsoever, a sane person can not and should not take it with the same level of seriousness as something that has basis in the text. Scientific approach, that was all I was arguing.


Edited by Han Snow, 15 December 2013 - 06:51 AM.


#18 Ygrain

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 08:35 AM

Now you ask who should educate people on the matter? Well maybe educate is the wrong word, but people like ygrain or mt.lion have been answering questions, posting the relevant parts of the text which point to the proper answers so I view them as some sort of educators. You can't participate in a debate with an approach everyone is right, no one is wrong, because this simply is not true. When people come here and claim Jon is Aegon without a shred of evidence and bar any logic whatsoever, a sane person can not and should not take it with the same level of seriousness as something that has basis in the text. Scientific approach, that was all I was arguing.

That's professional deformation on my part :-)

 

I'd just like to clarify one thing. I don't mind discussing one and the same stuff over and over, it's quite natural that people cannot grasp everything and the information from the SSMs is unique to this site, anyway. What I do mind is arrogance born of willful ignorance, and I don't take to that kindly. Lastly, I'm afraid that not every opinion is worthy of respect - after all, some threads even get closed for expressing particular opinions. I will not pretend that I respect opinions resembling an actual exchange that a friend of mine had with her four-year-old son when passing a dark green car on the street: "Mommy, what colour is that car?" - "Green, darling." - "Hmm, but I don't think so, I think it's blue."



#19 MtnLion

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:05 AM

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)


Edited by MtnLion, 15 December 2013 - 10:07 AM.


#20 Alia of the knife

Alia of the knife

    "She was more beautiful than that" -Robert

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:21 AM

 
This is frustrating beyond belief. Somehow this got into discussing intelligence as a virtue.The thing is I did not mention the word intelligence in any post of mine. That is something that Alia did. You don't have to be intelligent to know something is right or wrong, logical or illogical, that it makes sense or that it doesn't.
 
I'm guessing that me telling her a simple truth: that not all opinions are equally valuable and not all beliefs are valid and true, did not sit well for her for some reason. Maybe she thinks I'm arrogant for telling it as it is, I don't know.
 
 
But I would like to expand my answer to this part of her post
 
 
I personally believe and take R+L=J as a fact. There is so many parts of the text that point to it that I take it for granted much in the same way I take the theory of evolution, which is still considered just that, a theory.
Now you ask who should educate people on the matter? Well maybe educate is the wrong word, but people like ygrain or mt.lion have been answering questions, posting the relevant parts of the text which point to the proper answers so I view them as some sort of educators. You can't participate in a debate with an approach everyone is right, no one is wrong, because this simply is not true. When people come here and claim Jon is Aegon without a shred of evidence and bar any logic whatsoever, a sane person can not and should not take it with the same level of seriousness as something that has basis in the text. Scientific approach, that was all I was arguing.

You took exception to the statement that I made that two people who have two different opinions does not negate, or cancel out the other persons sincere, or heartfelt beliefs, and seemed to interpret that statement that I was claiming that all opinions are the same.
My point was that just because I might disagree with someone does not mean I personally think, or that I am saying they're wrong, especially absent the facts in an unfinished work of fantasy.
You then went on a diatribe about the internet, education, (and yes, I am a proponent of education for all), and your tone smacked of an intolerant elitism which I took exception to, and in which case I questioned that absent facts, who has the right to decide?

You didn't offend me, and I feel that real people fighting one another over fantasy characters is what gives fantasy and these forums a bad name.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 15 December 2013 - 10:26 AM.