The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Khal Drogo Women's T-Shirt
Women’s T-Shirt Khal Drogo
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

R+L=J v.78


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
412 replies to this topic

#1 Angalin

Angalin

    Queen of the Night

  • Board Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,545 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:46 PM

 

 

PLEASE REPORT THE THREAD ONCE IT REACHES 400 POSTS.  THANK YOU.

 

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

 

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

 

Spoiler


Edited by Angalin, 07 April 2014 - 04:46 PM.


#2 Victor The Bookreader

Victor The Bookreader

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:09 PM

Spoiler

Edited by Victor The Bookreader, 07 April 2014 - 07:35 PM.


#3 MtnLion

MtnLion

    On the Prowl

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,065 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:10 PM

Well, we have been putting all of that in spoiler tags.  



#4 theguyfromtheVale

theguyfromtheVale

    Kill the boy and let the man be born.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,572 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:13 PM

Spoiler


#5 Victor The Bookreader

Victor The Bookreader

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:19 PM

Spoiler

I said nothing about Ser Barristan knowing about jon snow? Yes i know it was Ned's official explanation, but they have finally put it in the show! 



#6 Alia of the knife

Alia of the knife

    "She was more beautiful than that" -Robert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,520 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:03 PM

Very interesting read.

#7 theguyfromtheVale

theguyfromtheVale

    Kill the boy and let the man be born.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,572 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:18 PM

I just don't see how it's trolling then, that's all.



#8 Ser Creighton

Ser Creighton

    90's me, told you I was a Baratheon.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,688 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:35 PM

I just don't see how it's trolling then, that's all.

I am still surprised someone took a shot of it just to read it, congrats to the production values of the show and all but, it might be a little obsessive and weird that the show props have now fallen under the fan microscope. We can't just read our own books, we are now reading the prop books on the show, I sort of feel a little ashamed of myself. Not completely though so it's ok right? Probably not, I swear people are going to need therapy when the books are done.

Spoiler

Edited by Ser Creighton, 07 April 2014 - 06:42 PM.


#9 Rhaegar I Targaryen

Rhaegar I Targaryen

    No, just no. No.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,189 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:56 PM

Anybody else geek out to themselves when Daario started wavin around that dusky blue flower? 



#10 Chebyshov

Chebyshov

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,719 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:58 PM

Anybody else geek out to themselves when Daario started wavin around that dusky blue flower? 

 

You mean the one that

Spoiler



#11 Rhaegar I Targaryen

Rhaegar I Targaryen

    No, just no. No.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,189 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:27 PM

 

You mean the one that

Spoiler

 

:lol:



#12 Victor The Bookreader

Victor The Bookreader

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:29 PM

I am still surprised someone took a shot of it just to read it, congrats to the production values of the show and all but, it might be a little obsessive and weird that the show props have now fallen under the fan microscope. We can't just read our own books, we are now reading the prop books on the show, I sort of feel a little ashamed of myself. Not completely though so it's ok right? Probably not, I swear people are going to need therapy when the books are done.

Spoiler

hahahaha defiantly obsessive but also observant. I was just sharing something i though was cool. =] 



#13 Jon Icefyre

Jon Icefyre

    Bowed and bent only while the dragon remains unwoken

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,697 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:30 PM

I really wish the show did flashbacks, would love to see a Rhaegar/Oberyn interaction. :dunce:


Edited by Jon Icefyre, 07 April 2014 - 07:31 PM.


#14 Victor The Bookreader

Victor The Bookreader

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:31 PM

I just don't see how it's trolling then, that's all.

Yes not trolling I should have said teasing. It is sort of a tease is it not if R+L isn't true they wouldn't care about showing minor details about the Tower of Joy. 



#15 Ser Creighton

Ser Creighton

    90's me, told you I was a Baratheon.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,688 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

hahahaha defiantly obsessive but also observant. I was just sharing something i though was cool. =]


Oh we been talking about it, had picks and everything posted and everything was written down by JStar on R+L=J 77. I was just having fun, I don't think it's a big deal, though seriously we need book 6 ASAP before it gets worse.

#16 FittleLinger

FittleLinger

    and vice versa

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,879 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:01 PM

I'd like to bring up a point to entertain a notion.

I just (think I) had an epiphany of the whole "Was Rhaegar trying to fulfill the prophecy with Lyanna?".

 

Up till now, I was of the opinion that yes, he had that in mind, he expected Jon to be a girl (Vysenia) etc, but...

 

I now think that Rhaegar either already thought he had fulfilled the prophecy via Aegon or that he had given up on the prophecy for good.

Martin's example of a lord who avoided a specific castle because of a prophecy only to end up being dead infront of an inn whose sign was said castle...

Rhaegar was actively trying to fulfill a prophecy allright, but his true love fulfilled it for him in an unexpected way.

 

I know that "there must be one more" and "the dragon has three heads" but what if Rhaegar didn't even try to impregnate Lyanna, it just happened, so he fulfilled it unintentionally.

 

What do you guys think?



#17 Victor The Bookreader

Victor The Bookreader

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:01 PM

Oh we been talking about it, had picks and everything posted and everything was written down by JStar on R+L=J 77. I was just having fun, I don't think it's a big deal, though seriously we need book 6 ASAP before it gets worse.

Ah ye didn't see the post my bad. I Think season 5 will be the rest of book 4,5. I have a bad feeling its going to be 2 more years before 6 comes out QQ



#18 Mirijam

Mirijam

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 588 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:07 PM

I am still surprised someone took a shot of it just to read it, congrats to the production values of the show and all but, it might be a little obsessive and weird that the show props have now fallen under the fan microscope. We can't just read our own books, we are now reading the prop books on the show, I sort of feel a little ashamed of myself. Not completely though so it's ok right? Probably not, I swear people are going to need therapy when the books are done.

Spoiler

nah people are just using new technology in interesting ways (which reminds me of when the trailer came out and everybody was 'ha they thought millisecond long frames would make me rewatch but I giffed it mwahaha')

 

I am waiting for someone to start making a screencap rpg comic of GOT, really



#19 J. Stargaryen

J. Stargaryen

    Ice Dragon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,292 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:24 PM

I'd like to bring up a point to entertain a notion.

I just (think I) had an epiphany of the whole "Was Rhaegar trying to fulfill the prophecy with Lyanna?".

 

Up till now, I was of the opinion that yes, he had that in mind, he expected Jon to be a girl (Vysenia) etc, but...

 

I now think that Rhaegar either already thought he had fulfilled the prophecy via Aegon or that he had given up on the prophecy for good.

Martin's example of a lord who avoided a specific castle because of a prophecy only to end up being dead infront of an inn whose sign was said castle...

Rhaegar was actively trying to fulfill a prophecy allright, but his true love fulfilled it for him in an unexpected way.

 

I know that "there must be one more" and "the dragon has three heads" but what if Rhaegar didn't even try to impregnate Lyanna, it just happened, so he fulfilled it unintentionally.

 

What do you guys think?

 

This is kind of thing GRRM might well do. Interesting idea. :cheers:



#20 Lyse Stark

Lyse Stark

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,119 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:29 PM

This is kind of thing GRRM might well do. Interesting idea. :cheers:

:agree:

He unknowingly ended up making the PTWP, but not the one he thought would be. So in that point, Jon is a prince who life was saved by a promise.

Edited by Lyse Stark, 07 April 2014 - 08:29 PM.