R+L=J v.78

[MoIaF]

Really? Neither of you guys think there's a negative association with being murdered, or murder? Death.

No, the use of the word had NOTHING to do with him being murder. That's the point. If you want to make an association with a word, the negative connotation must be associated to said word.

If one has nothing to do with the other, then there is not association.

[Ellfoy]

Sweetness doesn't = negative, its used sarcastically by a few characters and then people on this forum have started to refer to it as sweet= negative.

I am in English post graduate student and even went over it with one of my Professors and he didn't agree with it.

The sweetness= negative theory just seems like an attempt made by fans to ignore textual evidence of Jon being a positive part in Dany's life.

:agree:

[J. Stargaryen]

No, the use of the word had NOTHING to do with him being murder. That's the point. If you want to make an association with a word, the negative connotation must be associated to said word.

If one has nothing to do with the other, then there is not association.

Again, not a cause and effect situation. So I have no idea what point you think you're making. Obviously he wasn't going to live if he had called "dear sister" instead. But GRRM chose to have Viserys utter those words right before he was murdered. But yeah, no negative connotation with the word in that scene.

Personally, I find it telling that you attempted to cherry pick an instance of "sweet sister" that you thought wasn't negative and came up with that. Take the blinders off.

Murdering is bad, but if you look at Dany's arc as a whole Viserys' death is a positive thing that's what kicked started her arc into becoming a leader.

Okay, so again you have the potential for it to be both good and bad.

[MoIaF]

Again, not a cause and effect situation. So I have no idea what point you think you're making. Obviously he wasn't going to live if he had called "dear sister" instead. But GRRM chose to have Viserys utter those words right before he was murdered. But yeah, no negative connotation with the word in that scene.

Personally, I find it telling that you attempted to cherry pick an instance of "sweet sister" that you thought wasn't negative and came up with that. Take the blinders off.

Viserys called her sweet sister throughout the book, him calling her that at this point is nothing out of the ordinary. That's the point, there is no correlation with what happen to him and no correlation with it being used negatively.

Here is another example of Viserys using the word without it being sarcastic if that makes you feel better:

"Her brother smiled. “Good.” He touched her hair, almost with affection. “When they write the history of my reign , sweet sister, they will say that it began tonight.”

in fact, here's another one:

“We will have it all back someday, sweet sister,” he would promise her."

I'm not the one cherry picking, or making things fit the way I want them to fit.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Sweet is just one of those words that goes both ways. It can be sincere and it is also easily turned into sarcasm or irony. Like the boy/girl Sweets in Yezzan's tent/house/whatever.

[J. Stargaryen]

Viserys called her sweet sister throughout the book, him calling her that at this point is nothing out of the ordinary. That's the point, there is no correlation with what happen to him and no correlation with it being used negatively.

Here is another example of Viserys using the word without it being sarcastic if that makes you feel better:

"Her brother smiled. “Good.” He touched her hair, almost with affection. “When they write the history of my reign , sweet sister, they will say that it began tonight.”

in fact, here's another one:

“We will have it all back someday, sweet sister,” he would promise her."

I'm not the one cherry picking, or making things fit the way I want them to fit.

Yeah, and then we find out how he actually feels about his sister, when he says: “We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo’s army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will.” He smiled at her. “I’d let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying.” - AGoT, Daenerys I (same chapter you're quoting from)

Honestly, I already pointed out what GRRM is doing here. He has Viserys use "sweet sister" like he might actually mean it until the end of the chapter. At that point we find out that, well... not so much.

I agree that it's not out of the ordinary for Viserys to call Dany sweet sister. Exactly! He doesn't give two dragon shits about her. The argument you're making actually reinforces the sweet/negative argument. Viserys, who sees Dany as a means to an end, refers to her as sweet. Her entire worth to him from the beginning of the story is as a bargaining chip for the IT. Look at how he treats her. He doesn't love her. He's being condescending when he calls her sweet. So it's always ironic, it's always negative coming from him. Maybe there was some point when he meant it, but not anymore. Viserys is a narcissist and only cares about himself and his throne.

Maybe the whole point is that, even though sweet has been used negatively/ironically in Dany's chapters (her life), that when it comes to Jon Snow, he'll actually be truly sweet to/for her. I don't know. That said, you're not doing yourself any favors by misreading the application of sweet in her storyline. Especially since she appears to be your favorite character.

[MoIaF]

snip

Honestly, you are reading way to much into it. Sometimes he uses it in a sarcastic way to demean her, sometimes he doesn't. Associating the word with something negative is simply wrong. There are way too many instances where this doesn't apply which negates your argument.

However, I'll leave it at that I don't want to derail this thread any further. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

[J. Stargaryen]

Honestly, you are reading way to much into it. Sometimes he uses it in a sarcastic way to demean her, sometimes he doesn't. Associating the word with something negative is simply wrong. There are way too many instances where this doesn't apply which negates your argument.

However, I'll leave it at that I don't want to derail this thread any further. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

So, after trying and failing to make your case on multiple occasions, you're now claiming I'm reading too much into it? Cool. Not very credible, but cool.

From my point of view, the blue flower vision in the HotU doesn't presume anything very specific for Dany. Just that there's a ~50/50 chance of some kind of negativity. I mean, it could be that Jon "growing" means he turns into the ultimate villain, which is a negative for Dany because she's the ultimate hero of the story. Or maybe Jon and Dany will fall in love, but Jon dies, which would favor the positive and negative interpretation. It doesn't have to be read as: Jon finds out who he is and then kicks Dany's ass all over Westeros because Dany is an evil so and so and Jon is the paragon of everything good.

[MoIaF]

So, after trying and failing to make your case on multiple occasions, you're now claiming I'm reading too much into it? Cool. Not very credible, but cool.

From my point of view, the blue flower vision in the HotU doesn't presume anything very specific for Dany. Just that there's a ~50/50 chance of some kind of negativity. I mean, it could be that Jon "growing" means he turns into the ultimate villain, which is a negative for Dany because she's the ultimate hero of the story. Or maybe Jon and Dany will fall in love, but Jon dies, which would favor the positive and negative interpretation. It doesn't have to be read as: Jon finds out who he is and then kicks Dany's ass all over Westeros because Dany is an evil so and so and Jon is the paragon of everything good.

Wow! That was pretty classless of you, and I'll keep in mind in the future.

I made my case quite clear, and others agreed. You claim there were 11 instances of the word used sarcastically I disproved 5 of them (the 4 Viserys instances plus Illyrio calling her sweet princess). Now we are down to 6 out a total of 28, but I'll give you one more, you forgot the wine seller.

So, there are 7 instances of the word being used sarcastically out of a possible 28 instances the word is used overall in AGOT. And yet, you continue to claim that there is a negative connotation to the word. Talking about reading too much into it.

Now, I'll leave it at that. But if you feel like insulting me again with a reply. Go right ahead, and knock yourself out.

[J. Stargaryen]

Wow! That was pretty classless of you, and I'll keep in mind in the future.

Please, don't get on a soapbox after telling me that I was reading too much into my analysis, which is an insulting and dismissive way to conduct a discussion.

I made my case quite clear, and others agreed. You claim there were 11 instances of the word used sarcastically I disproved 5 of them (the 4 Viserys instances plus Illyrio calling her sweet princess). Now we are down to 6 out a total of 28, but I'll give you one more, you forgot the wine seller.

I do agree that you made your case quite clear, but that does not benefit you. You hilariously attempted to cherry pick an example of "sweet sister" where you did not perceive any negativity, even though it ends in Viserys' death. While there might be certain positive aspects to a character dying, overall death has a negative connotation. Is that really even a question?

I didn't forget the wine seller because he's not in Dany I. The 11 instances I referenced are all from Dany's first chapter in AGoT. I did recall it, though, I just didn't feel like it was necessary to cherry pick that example to bolster my case. I wanted an objective sample, so I chose Dany's first chapter in the series and addressed all of the mentions of sweet in it. Strangely, it's almost like the author is setting a certain tone for this character.

Sorry, but you disproved nothing. You simply made a bad argument in favor of your position.

So, there are 7 instances of the word being used sarcastically out of a possible 28 instances the word is used overall in AGOT. And yet, you continue to claim that there is a negative connotation to the word. Talking about reading too much into it.

Now, I'll leave it at that. But if you feel like insulting me again with a reply. Go right ahead, and knock yourself out.

Listen, if you think it's only 7/28 that's your loss, since you're missing out on one of the themes of your favorite character.

Quit playing the victim here. The reading too much into it crap is a well known forum insult, which you've now used twice.

[Jon Icefyre]

Viserys called her sweet sister throughout the book, him calling her that at this point is nothing out of the ordinary. That's the point, there is no correlation with what happen to him and no correlation with it being used negatively.

Here is another example of Viserys using the word without it being sarcastic if that makes you feel better:

"Her brother smiled. “Good.” He touched her hair, almost with affection. “When they write the history of my reign , sweet sister, they will say that it began tonight.”

This actually seems like another example of the negative. This isn't a exactly a happy moment for Dany, she's scared shitless, after Viserys had just threatened to wake the dragon(his fury) on her, in fact doesn't Dany then have a quick flashback of that, "waking the dragon" term being associated with Viserys beating her? Not to mention the fact that she was terrified at the prospect of marrying a complete stranger, and actually goes as far as to compare it with someone being sold to slavery....

[J. Stargaryen]

This actually seems like another example of the negative. This isn't a exactly a happy moment for Dany, she's scared shitless, after Viserys had just threatened to wake the dragon(his fury) on her, in fact doesn't Dany then have a quick flashback of that, "waking the dragon" term being associated with Viserys beating her? Not to mention the fact that she was terrified at the prospect of marrying a complete stranger, and actually goes as far as to compare it with someone being sold to slavery....

Coming from Viserys, they all are, really. GRRM plays this trick often enough. He shows you something only to make you reconsider later on. Viserys' utterances of "sweet sister" start off innocently enough. They seemingly could be genuine. Think of Robert talking about Rhaegar, or the blue roses in Ned's chapters. It's not until his final chapter that we learn Rhaegar gave her the crown of winter roses at Harrenhal. He's doing the same thing here on a smaller scale. Read the last "sweet sister" first and tell me if you think any of them are anything but negative in one way or another; condescending, etc.

Her brother smiled. “Good.” He touched her hair, almost with affection. “When they write the history of my reign, sweet sister, they will say that it began tonight.”

Innocent enough, though Viserys is talking about his reign beginning with Dany being married off.

“We will have it all back someday, sweet sister,” he would promise her. Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. “The jewels and the silks, Dragonstone and King’s Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back.” Viserys lived for that day. All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

This is probably the nicest of the lot. Viserys says that they will get it all back, though Dany doesn't care about it. This shows us that getting it all back is what Viserys wants, not Dany. These first two aren't really damning by themselves, but there not exactly charming either.

Her brother took her by the arm as Illyrio waddled over to the khal, his fingers squeezing so hard that they hurt. “Do you see his braid, sweet sister?”

Now he's hurting her. Increasingly negative.

“Home?” He kept his voice low, but she could hear the fury in his tone. “How are we to go home, sweet sister? They took our home from us!” He drew her into the shadows, out of sight, his fingers digging into her skin. “How are we to go home?” he repeated, meaning King’s Landing, and Dragonstone, and all the realm they had lost.”

There's "fury in his tone" and "his fingers [are] digging into her skin." Notice the progression from the first two to these two. Why is he taking out his fury on his sweet sister?

“I do,” he said sharply. “We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo’s army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will.” (from the beginning of the paragraph below.)

Here Viserys tells Dany what she must do so they can go home. As I previously stated, she's a means to an end for him.

He smiled at her. “I’d let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying.”

And finally. I don't think I need to annotate this one.

[Han Snow]

Sweet can definitely be both positive and negative. Taking one side or the other in considering what will it mean for Dany seems futile to me. When the time comes we'll know.

[Chebyshov]

I'd really like to know how describing a smell as "sweet" has a negative connotation, though. That would be such a weird place for sarcastic sentiments.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'd really like to know how describing a smell as "sweet" has a negative connotation, though. That would be such a weird place for sarcastic sentiments.

I think the point, at least potentially, is that GRRM has planted in the story that we shouldn't always take the word sweet at face value.

Since the blue flower is symbolic, I wouldn't get too hung up on the smell aspect. Note, it doesn't say that the blue flower smells sweet, though that's the default takeaway, it simply says that it is filling the air with sweetness. What does it mean to symbolically fill the air with sweetness?

[MtnLion]

I am going to weigh in on the flower of the HotU. Yes, Danerys calls it a flower once, but later we find that she told Jorah "rose". Well, everything, absolutely everything in the HotU sequence is Danerys' observation. Now, if one wants to think that Danerys would sarcastically label a fragrance sweet, but mean something else entirely without letting the reader know, fine. But I strongly disagree with that assumption.

[J. Stargaryen]

I am going to weigh in on the flower of the HotU. Yes, Danerys calls it a flower once, but later we find that she told Jorah "rose". Well, everything, absolutely everything in the HotU sequence is Danerys' observation. Now, if one wants to think that Danerys would sarcastically label a fragrance sweet, but mean something else entirely without letting the reader know, fine. But I strongly disagree with that assumption.

No one is making this argument. Dany perceives it as sweetness. The question is, given what we know of GRRM's use of the word, what does that mean? Or, why did GRRM use that word there? Is he playing it straight or not?

Remember that this whole analysis grew out of Jon and Dany shippers arguing that the blue flower ... sweetness was evidence or proof that they would end up together. And then someone, I believe danm_99, showed how often sweet is used ironically.

[Lyse Stark]

No one is making this argument. Dany perceives it as sweetness. The question is, given what we know of GRRM's use of the word, what does that mean? Or, why did GRRM use that word there? Is he playing it straight or not?

Remember that this whole analysis grew out of Jon and Dany shippers arguing that the blue flower ... sweetness was evidence or proof that they would end up together. And then someone, I believe danm_99, showed how often sweet is used ironically.

And that the connotation of sweetness, as I said earlier, can mean that Jon will be a cause of her death, either directly or indirectly. So if the sweetness hides lies, poison, or death, then that become a important clue to her ultimate fate.

Ser Jorah told her of the tree it [peach] had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

The peach, small and overripe as well as very sweet is a clue. The overripe aspect refers to Dany not getting to be queen; she cannot pluck it because the right opportunity has been missed. The smallness of her fruit may symbolize that her popularity may be less than she thought; the DotD 2.0 may play a role here. And the sweetness may foreshadow her death. She bites into the peach, and its sweetness make her cry; maybe it symbolizes Dany dying a sad and lonely death in childbirth?

[J. Stargaryen]

And that the connotation of sweetness, as I said earlier, can mean that Jon will be a cause of her death, either directly or indirectly. So if the sweetness hides lies, poison, or death, then that become a important clue to her ultimate fate.

Ser Jorah told her of the tree it [peach] had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

The peach, small and overripe as well as very sweet is a clue. The overripe aspect refers to Dany not getting to be queen; she cannot pluck it because the right opportunity has been missed. The smallness of her fruit may symbolize that her popularity may be less than she thought; the DotD 2.0 may play a role here. And the sweetness may foreshadow her death. She bites into the peach, and its sweetness make her cry; maybe it symbolizes Dany dying a sad and lonely death in childbirth?

These are both possibilities for sure. I think one of the reasons that there is some resistance to this reading of the HotU vision is a misconception about what it would necessarily mean if the blue flower was negatively filling the air with sweetness.

As I said up thread, it doesn't necessarily mean that Jon is going to kick Dany's ass all over Westeros, or anything of that nature. It doesn't have to mean Jon is the hero and Dany the villian, if such labels will be applicable at the end of the story. Nothing like that. Just that, directly or indirectly, there's a ~50/50 chance that it will be negative in some way for Dany. Again, as I said up thread, it might be that Jon ends up dying, which makes Dany sad. Therefore, negative for Dany. Other people may have different readings, but that's how I feel.

Though I do tend to 'root' for Jon more than Dany in certain ways, I am by no means a Dany hater. Actually, indirectly, she is the reason I'm here to begin with. I'm one of the people who found out about the books by watching the show, and the reason I began watching the show is because I wanted to look at Emilia Clarke. :smileysex: ;)

So I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for that character. Some of the best moments from the books (and show) are Dany epically triumphing.

As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons.

- AGoT, Daenerys X

“He will not come,” Kraznys said.

“There is a reason. A dragon is no slave.” And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver’s face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy’s fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin. “Drogon,” she sang out loudly, sweetly, all her fear forgotten. “Dracarys.”

- ASoS, Daenerys III

All that said, I do understand why Dany fans might be a little sensitive to any perceived criticism of her on these forums. She gets enough of it. Some of it I agree with, other stuff not so much. Regardless of what role she ends up playing, she's a pretty awesome character. For me, that's the most important thing. Same with Jon Snow. On the one hand, I'd like to see him end up as king and prove some of my predictions correct (blue rose sigil, ect.) but on the other, I'd rather have an him be an awesome villain than a boring king or savior. Though, I think GRRM will find a way to make his arc (both his and Dany's, actually) interesting regardless of which route he takes.

[MtnLion]

No one is making this argument. Dany perceives it as sweetness. The question is, given what we know of GRRM's use of the word, what does that mean? Or, why did GRRM use that word there? Is he playing it straight or not?

Remember that this whole analysis grew out of Jon and Dany shippers arguing that the blue flower ... sweetness was evidence or proof that they would end up together. And then someone, I believe danm_99, showed how often sweet is used ironically.

The thing that I see in the passage is that Daenerys does not view it as bad sweetness. In order for it to be perceived as a bad or ironic aspect, Daenerys is the one who must interpret for us. GRRM will do that if the occasion presents itself, as we see throughout the books, he just didn't do it here.