Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm hoping he would get released from his vows rather than the whole "death negates them" angle. That feels cheap to me. Perhaps the stabbing was to fullfill "Kill the boy and let the man be born"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pod Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 @horizon that notion does not agree with me. :ack: ;) @chebyshov ya I agree, but I can imagine a ceremonious "and now his watch has ended" spoken by the brothers... and then he isn't dead yet still out of the oath? I don't want this to be how it happens but I can see where people are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderBC Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Perhaps the stabbing was to fullfill "Kill the boy and let the man be born"? Oh yes, that does indeed fit in quite nicely! In this thread it may even be safe to presume that Jon recieved that advice from his Great, Great Grandfather's brother. And I think anything said by a blind, super-wise Targaryen over 100 years old shall be taken if not word by word probably as a foreshadowing. I believe I am not the only one starting to feel a sort of undescribable "Gandalfness" about Aemon whenever he says something about important matters, such as giving advise to one of the youngest LCs the watch have seen. I could imagine George using Aemon as a person who is kind of supernatural regarding his wisdom. Any man neglecting an offer to the Iron Throne should be put in very high regard. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." should Jon survive, he would need to be released from his oath, if he is dead and reanimated though. He might in sense that the oath says the watch ends at your death(conveniently), be released from the oath at the moment of his death. (At least) Four stabs should have effectively killed a man. Although, now when I am re-reading GoT put some thought in Jon's comment on Bran's survival of the fall. "You Starks are hard to kill.” I believe Robb legitimized Jon and named him his heir, IIRC? Which would mean Rhaegar and Lyanna need not have been married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Oh yes, that does indeed fit in quite nicely! In this thread it may even be safe to presume that Jon recieved that advice from his Great, Great Grandfather's brother. And I think anything said by a blind, super-wise Targaryen over 100 years old shall be taken if not word by word probably as a foreshadowing. I believe I am not the only one starting to feel a sort of undescribable "Gandalfness" about Aemon whenever he says something about important matters, such as giving advise to one of the youngest LCs the watch have seen. I could imagine George using Aemon as a person who is kind of supernatural regarding his wisdom. Any man neglecting an offer to the Iron Throne should be put in very high regard. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." should Jon survive, he would need to be released from his oath, if he is dead and reanimated though. He might in sense that the oath says the watch ends at your death(conveniently), be released from the oath at the moment of his death. (At least) Four stabs should have effectively killed a man. Although, now when I am re-reading GoT put some thought in Jon's comment on Bran's survival of the fall. "You Starks are hard to kill.” I believe Robb legitimized Jon and named him his heir, IIRC? Which would mean Rhaegar and Lyanna need not have been married. He legitimized him as King of the North though. Now, it depends of how the will will be carried, but it no possible scenario does it act as a legitimizing in regards of the Iron Throne. Also, it's not really clear how bad and mortal the stabs were. Of course, after those four, they might have stabbed him a dozen more times, but the four that we have seen don't seem to be 100% lethal at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderBC Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 "Kill the boy and let the man be born" is really a far too describing way of basically saying: "Grow up!" for it not to have a foreshadowing behind it. Now that we know that the boy Jon Snow truly is "killed". Especially being said by Maester Aemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 He legitimized him as King of the North though. Now, it depends of how the will will be carried, but it no possible scenario does it act as a legitimizing in regards of the Iron Throne. Also, it's not really clear how bad and mortal the stabs were. Of course, after those four, they might have stabbed him a dozen more times, but the four that we have seen don't seem to be 100% lethal at all. True, there's room for him to be alive, though "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …" seems pretty serious to me. @horizon that notion does not agree with me. :ack: ;) @chebyshov ya I agree, but I can imagine a ceremonious "and now his watch has ended" spoken by the brothers... and then he isn't dead yet still out of the oath? I don't want this to be how it happens but I can see where people are coming from. That's a good point...if it gets to where the brothers say "and now his watch has ended," I'll have less of an issue with it than if it's just some convenient technicality, though I'd prefer he gets released from his vows for other reasons. In the end, I do trust GRRM, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 True, there's room for him to be alive, though "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …" seems pretty serious to me. It's possible that he didn't feel the fourth knife because he had already warged into Ghost by that time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It's possible that he didn't feel the fourth knife because he had already warged into Ghost by that time... Very plausible. I was just saying I feel like there's little room for Human!Jon to still be living at the end of ADWD. I'd put money on us getting a Ghost!Jon PoV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderBC Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Very plausible. I was just saying I feel like there's little room for Human!Jon to still be living at the end of ADWD. I'd put money on us getting a Ghost!Jon PoV Yes, I am fairly certain we will get a Ghost chapter. Even if Jon IS dead, his last thoughts were of Ghost. Him being such a strong warg, his consciousness would probably flee into Ghost if he would die. Still think Jon's human body will be alive by the end of tWoW. And as Chebyshov said. George is to be trusted. Jon will play a signifigant role in the end. I hope he will surprise us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Perhaps the stabbing was to fullfill "Kill the boy and let the man be born"? Lol, I don't think that Aemon meant it quite so literally :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Lol, I don't think that Aemon meant it quite so literally :DHaha, no, with that I agree, Aemon would not have meant it that literally, but if it should be fullfilled, it would be like GRRM to make Jon think he did it, while it hasn't happened yet, and might happen like this.I wouldn't bet all on this interpretation to be correct :) just stating it's possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I feel you, sis. Lately the level of discussion on these boards has dropped quite a bit. This thread has been consistently prolific with its textual and meta-textual analytical contributions. Now we are stuck between the increasing trolling disruptions and analysis constrictions due to the board policy in regards to the book/show (alleged) dichotomy. The hammer and the anvil lol A real pity considering how central to the saga the mystery of Jon's parentage is (both in the books and in the show version: see the question GRRM tested D&D with before giving the green light). Btw, are we still allowed to use the graphic novel to extend a bit our 'observation field'? Or is it off-limits like the show, the bluray history&lore extras and the cast&crew interviews/contributions? What about D&E and the Dance of the Dragons spin-offs? I feel like we are running out of new source material :unsure: Exactly! And good question about the other materials because now it feels a little like walking on egg shells. :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Oh yes, that does indeed fit in quite nicely! In this thread it may even be safe to presume that Jon recieved that advice from his Great, Great Grandfather's brother. And I think anything said by a blind, super-wise Targaryen over 100 years old shall be taken if not word by word probably as a foreshadowing. I believe I am not the only one starting to feel a sort of undescribable "Gandalfness" about Aemon whenever he says something about important matters, such as giving advise to one of the youngest LCs the watch have seen. I could imagine George using Aemon as a person who is kind of supernatural regarding his wisdom. Any man neglecting an offer to the Iron Throne should be put in very high regard. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." should Jon survive, he would need to be released from his oath, if he is dead and reanimated though. He might in sense that the oath says the watch ends at your death(conveniently), be released from the oath at the moment of his death. (At least) Four stabs should have effectively killed a man. Although, now when I am re-reading GoT put some thought in Jon's comment on Bran's survival of the fall. "You Starks are hard to kill.” I believe Robb legitimized Jon and named him his heir, IIRC? Which would mean Rhaegar and Lyanna need not have been married. Four stabbings do not have to be lethal.. It's all about where the knife hit, and that I can't remember at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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