R+L=J v.78

[lareine]

that's my suggestion ;____; (I think).

There is almost endless possibilities for the allegedly "abduction" not being some kind of selfish act, that the fact that many people easily think they were two wild animals full of lust who cared about nothing but themselves kinda amaze me.

For instance,

Lyanna saw in Robert something she didn't like (something besides the rumours and information she had) and decided to run away.

Rhaegar was close to the North (or Lyanna managed to get to the south) and, if he indeed discovered her as the KotLT, she asked for his help. Rhaegar, being the Prince, could help them to dissolve the betrothal. Even if he didn't at first (politically, it was dangerous) he tried to put him in a safe place until he could manage to talk with her family or Robert.

Then Brandon goes all OASIJDIOAJSDIASYDASHAS DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!, and the one dying is him and Rickard. Rhaegar and Lyanna find out. Considering how little information both sides had of the other, it was safer to keep her hidden for a while until Rhaegar could talk with a sane Stark, after all, its not improbable that men are sent to look for her and get hurt in the process. By that time, it was too late: pretty wild chic and emo harpist prince = baby.

ETA: not to justify Rhaegar's actions but, the guy was human after all. His wife not only couldn't have any more more children but he couldn't even bed her again because they couldn't risk another pregnancy. Considering that both her births almost kill her, maybe Rhaegar realise their sexual life was done for good. That's not some simple matter, even for a political marriage

I really like your take on this. Lately I've begun to think more along these lines myself; that it didn't start out as love and neither had any intention to dishonor their families, but some set of circumstances (that we don't know about yet) brought them into prolonged close contact and it eventually evolved into genuine love. It just makes more sense to me character wise, given how honorable we're told they both were.

I've been doing a Jon/Ygritte re-read recently and I think that's what started me thinking along those lines (I know many people on this thread have pointed out the parallels before). Jon didn't want to break his vows of celibacy, he fought against it with every fiber in his being until circumstances put him in a position where he had no choice but to do so in service to his greater mission. Once he had, he struggles with feelings of guilt not only at his broken vows and the fact that he's deceiving Ygritte about his true loyalties, but also over the fact that he's developed real feelings for her. Call it just a hunch, but I have a feeling this closely mirrors how his father's relationship with Lyanna evolved too.

[horizon]

In the L + R = J thing:

1. From Bran we know that him (and from that we can assume the other Stark kids as well) has been told that Rhaegar had kindnapped & raped Lyanna. Point.

2, Eddard told Winterfel to sh*t the f*ck up about Ashara.

3. If Eddard knew that Lyanna & Rhaegar loved each other and Jon was made as a result of love, would Eddard like to hear stories in Winterfell being told about how bad Rhaegar was? If he made a promiss to Lyanna, would he like to have Jon hear such bad things about his father.

Or ofcourse Eddard let it (the bad talking about Rhaegar) happen as that was the safest for Jon? Sounds reasonable.

From his musings we know Eddard did not think that bad about Rhaeger (visiting whores).

[Ygrain]

(I have often wondered if in the begetting of Aegon, if Rhaegar was trying to forget Lyanna)?

Quite possibly - what else was a dutiful man supposed to do?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Quite possibly - what else was a dutiful man supposed to do?

Nah, I know he has this "ethereal" aura about him but he was a man, can he simply have some "urges"?

And, wasn't Aegon conceived during the sight of a comet? "Look! Elia! It's a sign! Quickly, to the batcave bed!". (this but with a Dragon)

[Ygrain]

Nah, I know he has this "ethereal" aura about him but he was a man, can he simply have some "urges"?

And, wasn't Aegon conceived during the sight of a comet? "Look! Elia! It's a sign! Quickly, to the batcave bed!". (this but with a Dragon)

Well, I'm sure he had, but we never hear of any affair prior Lyanna, so he apparently stuck to the bed of the woman he was only fond of. So, even the urges were subject to duty.

[lareine]

Nah, I know he has this "ethereal" aura about him but he was a man, can he simply have some "urges"?

And, wasn't Aegon conceived during the sight of a comet? "Look! Elia! It's a sign! Quickly, to the batcave bed!". (this but with a Dragon)

:rofl:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, I'm sure he had, but we never hear of any affair prior Lyanna, so he apparently stuck to the bed of the woman he was only fond of. So, even the urges were subject to duty.

That speaks volumes of him. Another spoiled prince would have simply said "bring me the girl".

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Nah, I know he has this "ethereal" aura about him but he was a man, can he simply have some "urges"?

And, wasn't Aegon conceived during the sight of a comet? "Look! Elia! It's a sign! Quickly, to the batcave bed!". (

but with a Dragon)

I believe "surreal" was the term everybody used :lol:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

surreal, ethereal, panty-dropper. You get my point.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Nah, I know he has this "ethereal" aura about him but he was a man, can he simply have some "urges"?

And, wasn't Aegon conceived during the sight of a comet? "Look! Elia! It's a sign! Quickly, to the batcave bed!". (this but with a Dragon)

One second? That's nothing to impress the ladies with, there.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

I really like your take on this. Lately I've begun to think more along these lines myself; that it didn't start out as love and neither had any intention to dishonor their families, but some set of circumstances (that we don't know about yet) brought them into prolonged close contact and it eventually evolved into genuine love. It just makes more sense to me character wise, given how honorable we're told they both were.

I've been doing a Jon/Ygritte re-read recently and I think that's what started me thinking along those lines (I know many people on this thread have pointed out the parallels before). Jon didn't want to break his vows of celibacy, he fought against it with every fiber in his being until circumstances put him in a position where he had no choice but to do so in service to his greater mission. Once he had, he struggles with feelings of guilt not only at his broken vows and the fact that he's deceiving Ygritte about his true loyalties, but also over the fact that he's developed real feelings for her. Call it just a hunch, but I have a feeling this closely mirrors how his father's relationship with Lyanna evolved too.

I agree with this. Also it has been mentioned a few times that when a girl is married she leaves her father's protection for the husband's protection. Marrying Rhaegar gets Lyanna out of marrying Robert, and Rhaegar would probably give her greater freedom than Rickard had. Since Rhaegar liked TKOTLT stunt, he probably allowed (or would've allowed) Lyanna to carry a sword.

[Disputatious]

Show cannon =/= book cannon, so this analysis doesn't really tell us anythng

I read this and had a brief vision of the show blasting away at the books :)

A vision which watchers of the show who are "book purists" may have more frequently than me. (I have only seen a few clips on You Tube.) The books will blast back when GRRM writes more about Jeyne Westerling revealing why it was a real mistake for the show runners to deviate that much from the text. :)

[Disputatious]

With regards to a least a provisional reveal of R + L = J that would not come via Lord Howland, consider what might happen if Ser Jorah or Dany asked the meaning of the blue rose in the HOTU vision with both Tyrion and Ser Barristan present. Between them, they know enough to figure out that it points to Jon being Lyanna's son. I have posted the details before, so I won't repeat myself for the umpteenth time. Besides, you should be able to work it out for yourselves.

[Alia of the knife]

Okay, so Bran looks to be as tall as Hodor, and looks like John Lennon while

Tommen looks to be seventeen. :shocked:

[lareine]

Okay, so Bran looks to be as tall as Hodor, and looks like John Lennon while

Tommen looks to be seventeen. :shocked:

Weird!

Though I can see a certain John Lennon resemblance ;)

My plans to watch the show this evening were botched at the last minute by an unfortunate event that I'll have to tell you about in a raven email. Looking forward to discussing it with you when I finally get to see it!

[Alia of the knife]

Weird!

Though I can see a certain John Lennon resemblance ;)

My plans to watch the show this evening were botched at the last minute by an unfortunate event that I'll have to tell you about in a raven email. Looking forward to discussing it with you when I finally get to see it!

Ohh nooo! :o

Looking forward to an update.

Take Care :)

[Jon Icefyre]

Lmao, but on a somewhat more serious note, did you notice Bran had that same Iron Throne being covered in snow vision that Dany had? Does that mean Dany will land in Westeros during winter, or that the true throne will lie in the North?

[Disputatious]

Lmao, but on a somewhat more serious note, did you notice Bran had that same Iron Throne being covered in snow vision that Dany had? Does that mean Dany will land in Westeros during winter, or that the true throne will lie in the North?

Ahem.... There is another possibility: apparently not one you wish to consider :( Now why might that be?

Also, do the show runners think they are being clever? The two scenes together are a pretty broad hint...... No scalpel here, more like a bastard sword.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

More suggestions to the "they simply didn't run away because they're selfish" party.

What if Lyanna was meant to go South intentionally by her father's orders? Ned and Brandon weren't there, and Benjen was young. If he meant to send a message concerning a plot to take over Aerys or anything related to his "southern ambitions" what's more innocent than sending your own daughter? Maybe Lyanna herself didn't know either. And worst, what if he sent her with Rhaegar (for whatever reasons he was in the North), thinking that she would be safe with the Prince (cousin of her betrothed) and two KG? Maybe Brandon never knew and he simply heard "they're running away together!" and by the time war started, he decided it was better to hide Lyanna?

Discuss.

[Lyse Stark]

Ahem.... There is another possibility: apparently not one you wish to consider :( Now why might that be?

Also, do the show runners think they are being clever? The two scenes together are a pretty broad hint...... No scalpel here, more like a bastard sword.

I am not surprised; the fact that the IT is

covered in snow, and they bother to show it twice; this foreshadows Jon becoming King. The other four claimants, Euron, Stannis, FAegon and Dany might be dead by this time because they squabbled like children over the throne while Jon accomplishes the grown up task of fighting the true threat to the North.