R+L=J v.78

[Ygrain]

Thank you! I have been peering though threads for months now, and could not help myself any longer. I had to chip in, although I guess this thread has seen all possible comments on the subjects ten times each already.

Yes, I proudly noticed my mistake :) I had his conversation with Cat mixed up with the one with Robert's where he just say's that he will never tell him what she looked like. Kind of a harsh way to speak to your king.

If the theory shows to be true, I am curious (lol, that's an understatement) about what Jon and Daenarys fate is and in what way they will be entwined.

It would make great sense if Howland Reed turns out to have been the KotLT. He is a small man, as the story states the KotLT was. And it would indicate that Reed cared about Lyanna so much as to accompany Ned on a crazy quest to "free" her from Rhaegar and the KG.

I am looking forward to see what all the fuss is about when it comes to the Crypts beneath Winterfell Jon has dreamt it so many times it most likely is a big plotpoint.

BTW. Is this the most active thread on the entire forum?

What theguyfromthevale said :-) I would only add that the Arianne sample chapter

introduces her young Sandsnake cousin Elia, whose hobby is jousting

The Crypts are really intriguing. The popular theory has it that there is some kind of proof, or at least a clue, to Jon's parentage - a document, a dragon egg, Rhaegar's harp, Targaryen wedding cloak.... Plus, there is the supernatural aspect with Ned's ghost speaking to Bran and Rickon, Jon's dream of the dead rising, and some secret on the lower levels.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I've been wondering about Jon's place in the line of succession.

I know it is said that Jon was born "around" the time of the sack of KL. But if Jon was born after the sack, that would mean that Jon was not an heir at the time Aerys died since he was still unborn.

This would mean that the throne would technically pass to Viserys on Aerys death, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son and he was born legitimate. It also makes Jon's status in the line of succession uncertain. Does he come in front of Dany or behind?

I know it's highly technical and probably irrelevant but it's pretty interesting. How would they have dealt with it a year ago if Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles and Prince William all died leaving Prince Harry and unborn Prince George?

Jon comes before Dany in everything but death. Ladies first... ;)

[CommanderBC]

What theguyfromthevale said :-)

The Crypts are really intriguing. The popular theory has it that there is some kind of proof, or at least a clue, to Jon's parentage - a document, a dragon egg, Rhaegar's harp, Targaryen wedding cloak.... Plus, there is the supernatural aspect with Ned's ghost speaking to Bran and Rickon, Jon's dream of the dead rising, and some secret on the lower levels.

Ah yes, of course Lyanna would certainly fit the role as the Mystery Knight as well, and very convincingly so. I am certain she would look fairly small compared to the other contestants. as was the only reference to the appearance I believe?

And it would certainly be convenient to inform the reader via a conversation with Bolton that Lyanna was a very, (very) strong rider to fit this in.

As for the crypts. Do we know if the Harp was left at the ToJ? I feel like that would be the most fitting evidence. It is the best connection to Rhaegar, and would there be a wedding cloak therein as well, it would be a true jackpot.

I wonder though, since Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell, CAN Jon Snow be legitimate and thereby have a claim to the throne?, or is the Bastard part of his known identity the truth that holds the whole web of lies together?

I feel like many an hour can be spent on these forums... I just want tWoW.. The sad part is I will read it in mayhaps a week, and then I will be craving for another 1000 pages which will take another couple of years..

OFF TOPIC (if such a thing is permitted)

Seems like a lot of veterans hang here in this thread. Do you think we will see the next book anytime soon? The optimist in me wants to believe in a release this year. Probably it will linger to at least next year though right?

[Jory Cassel]

Ah yes, of course Lyanna would certainly fit the role as the Mystery Knight as well, and very convincingly so. I am certain she would look fairly small compared to the other contestants. as was the only reference to the appearance I believe?

And it would certainly be convenient to inform the reader via a conversation with Bolton that Lyanna was a very, (very) strong rider to fit this in.

As it happens, the connection is even more blatant than this; Bolton refers to Lyanna as "half a horse" while Elia Sand is incidentally referred to as "half horse" as well.

[Ygrain]

Ah yes, of course Lyanna would certainly fit the role as the Mystery Knight as well, and very convincingly so. I am certain she would look fairly small compared to the other contestants. as was the only reference to the appearance I believe?

And it would certainly be convenient to inform the reader via a conversation with Bolton that Lyanna was a very, (very) strong rider to fit this in.

As for the crypts. Do we know if the Harp was left at the ToJ? I feel like that would be the most fitting evidence. It is the best connection to Rhaegar, and would there be a wedding cloak therein as well, it would be a true jackpot.

I wonder though, since Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell, CAN Jon Snow be legitimate and thereby have a claim to the throne?, or is the Bastard part of his known identity the truth that holds the whole web of lies together?

I feel like many an hour can be spent on these forums... I just want tWoW.. The sad part is I will read it in mayhaps a week, and then I will be craving for another 1000 pages which will take another couple of years..

OFF TOPIC (if such a thing is permitted)

Seems like a lot of veterans hang here in this thread. Do you think we will see the next book anytime soon? The optimist in me wants to believe in a release this year. Probably it will linger to at least next year though right?

No, the harp is never mentioned in connection with ToJ (though I think that Rhaegar singing to the love of his life is a safe bet).

Jon can be legitimate due to the Targ history of polygamy, which, despite the claims of certain forumers, has never been made illegal or impossible, certainly no more than the Targ incest which we see happily practiced years and years after the dragons were gone. However, Jon being born legitimate doesn't necessarily mean that he will, or should, sit the Iron Throne.

As for off-topicking, it's not exactly permitted - but in all my time here since thread 17 or so, I've never seen it discouraged :D And yes, there is usually a bunch of regulars hanging onto this thread - as someone put it, as a safe hideout. Out little Tower of Joy :D

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I feel like many an hour can be spent on these forums... I just want tWoW.. The sad part is I will read it in mayhaps a week, and then I will be craving for another 1000 pages which will take another couple of years..

OFF TOPIC (if such a thing is permitted)

Seems like a lot of veterans hang here in this thread. Do you think we will see the next book anytime soon? The optimist in me wants to believe in a release this year. Probably it will linger to at least next year though right?

Might be I'm not "veteran" enough to answer this, but there is this:

George R.R. Martin's UK publishers, HarperCollins Voyager, have offered (via a redacted Twitter exchange) a rare comment on the progress of The Winds of Winter, the sixth and planned-to-be penultimate volume of A Song of Ice and Fire. They have confirmed that the novel will definitely not be published in 2014, but that a 2015 release is possible.

I'd say this year is a no go (and unsurprising, with 2 sample chapters, a short story and a coffee table book all being released this year), but I hold optimism for next year.

[987654321]

my problem with R+L=J is that Rhaegar is portrayed continuously as one of the greatest men of his time, an extremely clever man and an honourable man, wanting to do the right thing. This image doesn't fit with his taking of Lyanna, even if they were in love. He would surely have anticipated the reactions from the Starks and Robert. I do not believe that he would sacrifice the realm and let a war happen just for his own selfish reasons. For me, if this is true it was for prophecy reasons, as Elia might have been infertile by then and a third dragon was needed. Yet again there was no need for him to use Lyanna to birth this child, even if he loved her. He would understand the cost. And he could have chosen any woman for his third child.

The only possible reason might have been he needed a stark or northerner for some prophetic reason, but this would seem like clutching at straws.

Any thoughts on this? I'm not disproving the theory, just showing it has flaws and i won't believe until it is fully proven.

[CommanderBC]

Right, I read about that somewhere, but it was written in the same post as Dotrice and Robin Hobb's comments which where obviously not accurate at all. So I didn't reflect much on the tweet.

"planned-to-be penultimate"

Which basically means that George isn't 100% sure he will be able to finish the series in two more books.

It feel's good that Rogues will include a piece of the Targaryen storyline. Prince Daemon was one of my favourites in The Princess and the Queen, so that will definitely be a real pleasure to read, and only about two months away!

Elio and Lindas wiki-book will also be a real treat!

Right, the topic ^^

Most talk of Jon is IF he is a Targaryen, or how we will come to know about it.

I havn't seen much speculation about what it will mean when he learns the truth about his royal parentage.

Will Daenarys come to the north? I believe that's where she will end up. In what other way could the tens maybe even hundreds of thousands of wights be realistically defeated? I bet dragonfire is super effective against The Others as well.

Will Jon due to his blood be a destined dragonrider? I can absolutely see him on Rhaegal, basically his fathers namesake.

And if Bran on top of that would slip into the dragon.. Did someone say christmas,

987654321

my problem with R+L=J is that Rhaegar is portrayed continuously as one of the greatest men of his time, an extremely clever man and an honourable man, wanting to do the right thing. This image doesn't fit with his taking of Lyanna, even if they were in love.

Yes, the theory has some weak points, otherwise it would not be a theory. I feel that the small bits of clues we have is enough to make an estimation that it could very well be true.

We know for certain that Rhaegar hid Lyanna away, we know that he loved her dearly. His last words dying on the trident was "A womans name", and three of the best KG were guarding Lyannas hiding place, even though no member of the royal family were present. (why didn't they accompany Dany and Viserys to Dragonstone?)

And what I feel the strongest evidence. "The Promise" a promise so hard for Ned, it still haunts him. 16 years later.. and the bed of blood she was lying in. "bed of blood" in other places of the books being a reference to childbirth.

[Ygrain]

my problem with R+L=J is that Rhaegar is portrayed continuously as one of the greatest men of his time, an extremely clever man and an honourable man, wanting to do the right thing. This image doesn't fit with his taking of Lyanna, even if they were in love. He would surely have anticipated the reactions from the Starks and Robert. I do not believe that he would sacrifice the realm and let a war happen just for his own selfish reasons. For me, if this is true it was for prophecy reasons, as Elia might have been infertile by then and a third dragon was needed. Yet again there was no need for him to use Lyanna to birth this child, even if he loved her. He would understand the cost. And he could have chosen any woman for his third child.

The only possible reason might have been he needed a stark or northerner for some prophetic reason, but this would seem like clutching at straws.

Any thoughts on this? I'm not disproving the theory, just showing it has flaws and i won't believe until it is fully proven.

I'm quite sure that they both did anticipate some outrage - what couldn't be anticipated, though, was the outbreak of a civil war, caused by Aerys' mad reaction to Brandon's action, which, again, was not something that could have been reasonably anticipated.

[987654321]

I'm quite sure that they both did anticipate some outrage - what couldn't be anticipated, though, was the outbreak of a civil war, caused by Aerys' mad reaction to Brandon's action, which, again, was not something that could have been reasonably anticipated.

Lyanna had been betrothed, this is not something that is easily ignored in those times. Also even if Lyanna went voluntarily they both led the world to believe she had not, and if youre sister/daughter/wife to be is kidnapped there will be a major reaction as was shown. There was to be a duel anyway, and if brandon or rickard had died, Lyanna would have been the cause, something she should have known would happen. and if the Starks had won, Lyanna would either have been returned potentially impregnated by rhaegar already which would cause further outrage and maybe a call for rhaegars death, or rhaegar and Lyanna would have run away somewhere which I doubt rhaegar would do. Whatever the outcome there is no happy ending for the couple and they surely knew this. If this was truly for love, I don't buy it.

[CommanderBC]

Lyanna had been betrothed, this is not something that is easily ignored in those times.

I seem to recall another Stark "betrothed" that married someone else for love (stupid in both cases). The consequences. Well, I guess I don't have to give anyone here a recap. :(

[MtnLion]

Lyanna had been betrothed, this is not something that is easily ignored in those times. Also even if Lyanna went voluntarily they both led the world to believe she had not, and if youre sister/daughter/wife to be is kidnapped there will be a major reaction as was shown. There was to be a duel anyway, and if brandon or rickard had died, Lyanna would have been the cause, something she should have known would happen. and if the Starks had won, Lyanna would either have been returned potentially impregnated by rhaegar already which would cause further outrage and maybe a call for rhaegars death, or rhaegar and Lyanna would have run away somewhere which I doubt rhaegar would do. Whatever the outcome there is no happy ending for the couple and they surely knew this. If this was truly for love, I don't buy it.

We don't have very much to go on, other than we know that Robert's line about Lyanna being raped was false. Daenerys says that she was taken at sword point, but that could also be a false lead. It seems much more likely to me that failing to get her brother's or father's support for her to refuse Robert, Lyanna turned to Rhaegar for help. Rhaegar and she may have devised a way for her to avoid the betrothal which was passed on to Brandon in a distorted manner and he reacted badly. During some months together they may have realized their deep love for one another, and after Brandon's and Rickard's deaths decided to marry. It is pretty clear that Jon was not conceived before the rebellion started, but after the Battle of the Bells, and even after Ned, Catelyn, Jon Arryn, and Lysa wedding.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I seem to recall another Stark "betrothed" that married someone else for love (stupid in both cases). The consequences. Well, I guess I don't have to give anyone here a recap. :(

So what you're saying is that we have the Red Wedding... and the UnRead Wedding? ;)

[CommanderBC]

So what you're saying is that we have the Red Wedding... and the UnRead Wedding? ;)

You may well be on to something!

There are some interesting theories about Jon being the love-child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

I feel like Dawn have a role to play. Jon Snow is obviously a pretty major character to the whole "Song of Ice and Fire".

There is no "Sword of the Morning" as of yet, who will that be?

If R+L=J is not true, I would bet my money that Jon is the next Sword of the Morning and probably Azor Ahai Reborn. That would mean The Prince(ess) That Was Promised is a different person and that being Dany.

I believe "The Song of Ice and Fire" is a quite clever title, which could be turned over and mean different things. Maybe one of them could be Snow and Dany, fighting off Winter together.

[Mladen]

You may well be on to something!

There are some interesting theories about Jon being the love-child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.

The problem is that Brandon was long dead before Jon was conceived.

[The guy from the Vale]

... and a secondary problem is that Ned would have little reason not to tell the truth - at least to Jon himself.

[CommanderBC]

Yeah, the whole plotpoint where Ned is so unbelievably secretive about Jon, The only reasonable explanation for that would need to be something huge.

I can not realistically see another scenario than R+L=J..

Aerys is another candidate though. And there I believe we are talking abduction and rape.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Jon comes before Dany in everything but death. Ladies first... ;)

:drool:

Mind in gutter, has been for days :(

[Alia of the knife]

my problem with R+L=J is that Rhaegar is portrayed continuously as one of the greatest men of his time, an extremely clever man and an honourable man, wanting to do the right thing. This image doesn't fit with his taking of Lyanna, even if they were in love. He would surely have anticipated the reactions from the Starks and Robert. I do not believe that he would sacrifice the realm and let a war happen just for his own selfish reasons. For me, if this is true it was for prophecy reasons, as Elia might have been infertile by then and a third dragon was needed. Yet again there was no need for him to use Lyanna to birth this child, even if he loved her. He would understand the cost. And he could have chosen any woman for his third child.

The only possible reason might have been he needed a stark or northerner for some prophetic reason, but this would seem like clutching at straws.

Any thoughts on this? I'm not disproving the theory, just showing it has flaws and i won't believe until it is fully proven.

One of Martins themes in the book "is a heart in conflict with itself," (Faulkner is one on his favorite writers), and the book is filled with characters who all struggle with what they want and doing the right thing. I am one who staunchly believes that Martin is a romantic,(just a brutally realistic one), and such phrases as "the things we do for love," and "love is the death of duty," permeate the work.

For me there is no conflict in the idea that Rhaegar was a good and honorable man, but who also struggled, perhaps for the first time in his life, with what was "right," and the right thing to do, and in the latter, perhaps he fell short. :dunno:

The clues are strewn throughout the POV of the people associated with Rhaegar. They all have different threads of truth running through them, but there is a common denominator.

While I think that he was fond of Elia, I don't think Rhaegar was happy in his marriage, (and we know from Danys POV what "fondness" means which writing that in that manner was deliberate on the part of the Author I believe). It was a political choice, not a romantic one, and I suspect the pressure to secure the succession was intense, and in all this, they would have been closely watched by the court.

We have from Dany, Viserys Cersei, and Kevan Lannister the "if onlys."

If only Rhaegar had married Dany, if only Viserys had been born a girl, if only Aerys had married Cersei to Rhaegar, "she could have given him all the sons he wanted."

He wouldn't have needed the "Stark girl." (I've always found that disrespectful referring to her in that manner than by her title).

We hear the POV's from Jon Connington, and despite what his personal feelings were, there was likely some truth in what he said, fair or not. Its not so much that Elia was unworthy as person, but she may have not been the best candidate for the expectations of her position given her frail health, or something else he was referring to that we are unaware of as yet.

(Of course, he also wears wolf skin cloak, so he is not likely happy about Lyanna either).

Here is an exerpt from "Elizabeth of York," by Allison Weir about the expectations of royal women:

"The bodies of Queens were effectively public property, for their fertility was of prime importance to the nation and a legitimate object of speculation of courts, diplomatic circles, noble households, taverns, and humble hovels." - Allison Weir.

So underlying pressures would have been intense.

We also here from Selmy, who was not an insider, that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Selmy wasn't an insider, so that would indicate certain behaviors that must have become obvious, and I don't think he makes that statement lightly as he still admires Rhaegar, but also, makes the comparison between "love," to a "slow poison."

Ned had the recollection of the thorns that lay beneath the beauty of the roses, (so poignant ), which suggests the sorrow and pain that lay hidden beneath the surface.

Also, the Maesters didn't say Elia shouldn't have anymore children, (her health had been just as delicate in begetting Rhaenys), but that "she would bear no more children," which makes Rhaegars conversation with her about a song for Aegon even more significant, because he tells her, after they both know her condition, that there must be one more.

However, having said all that, I don't think Rhaegar took this lightly either. I think he struggled mightily, (there is a passage in the books, and I'm paraphrasing, where Jon wonders if his "father," (thinking of Ned of course), felt the same agony and ectasy that he did with Ygritte, (breaking his vows), while in his mothers bed.

I would say emphatically, yes, because he knew he would hurt Elia, though certainly not in the way things tragically transpired.

And while I do think he fell in love with Lyanna when he met her as tKotLT, I think he fully intended to be a faithful husband, despite not being in love with Elia, until love did come along.

(I have often wondered if in the begetting of Aegon, if Rhaegar was trying to forget Lyanna)?

I agree that given his determined nature, he would have wanted to do things correctly. That started with telling Elia the truth, then perhaps persuading his father that "marrying" the North, (much like Dorne), would take care of any poltical issues that Aerys was suspicious of, and then dealing properly with Robert in terms of compensation?

(I don't think Rhaegar would have just helped Lyanna get out of a betrothal she didn't want because that sets a dangerous precedent for the society they lived in as most of the maidens in that world had little choice in their husbands).

I do also think the urgency in which he went after Lyanna suggests something sudden, something that might have upended his plans. Either Aerys did find out who tKotLT was and sent soldiers to arrest her,(I wonder who would have told him)?, or Aerys refused him and then threatened her life.

The only thing that gives me pause is that the TOJ feels like it was planned already.

But as for clues, I would say keep "watching." :)

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I hope we get some more Rhaegar references in this episode... It's been a such a dark time to be a Rhae-Rhae fan... I think it's what is causing my use of excessive punctuation... And sad emoticons... :(