R+L=J v.78

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Well wasn't Robert B pretty much speeding lots of time at brothels and whores before the war. And Lyanna knew and she was pretty much fed up with him?

She was disturbed by his whore-mongering and that he already had a bastard.

Personally, I think Robert would have actually made a good match for Lyanna if he hadn't been trying to :smileysex: everything that moved. I think the loss of his parents was hard on him.

[Zman1863]

I've been wondering about Jon's place in the line of succession.

I know it is said that Jon was born "around" the time of the sack of KL. But if Jon was born after the sack, that would mean that Jon was not an heir at the time Aerys died since he was still unborn.

This would mean that the throne would technically pass to Viserys on Aerys death, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son and he was born legitimate. It also makes Jon's status in the line of succession uncertain. Does he come in front of Dany or behind?

I know it's highly technical and probably irrelevant but it's pretty interesting. How would they have dealt with it a year ago if Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles and Prince William all died leaving Prince Harry and unborn Prince George?

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Does he come in front of Dany or behind?

:spank: :spank:

:lol:

[Victor The Bookreader]

:spank: :spank:

:lol:

hahahahahahahahah

[J. Stargaryen]

I've been wondering about Jon's place in the line of succession.

I know it is said that Jon was born "around" the time of the sack of KL. But if Jon was born after the sack, that would mean that Jon was not an heir at the time Aerys died since he was still unborn.

This would mean that the throne would technically pass to Viserys on Aerys death, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son and he was born legitimate. It also makes Jon's status in the line of succession uncertain. Does he come in front of Dany or behind?

I know it's highly technical and probably irrelevant but it's pretty interesting. How would they have dealt with it a year ago if Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles and Prince William all died leaving Prince Harry and unborn Prince George?

This isn't true. There are real life precedents for this situation. Basically, the matter of succession is put on hold until the baby is born and its sex determined.

[Zman1863]

This isn't true. There are real life precedents for this situation. Basically, the matter of succession is put on hold until the baby is born and its sex determined.

Out of curiosity could you list a couple of those? I must confess myself almost wholly ignorant of the history of monarchies outside of England.

[corbon]

These forums are going to be pretty funny once show overtakes the books. Whether Aegon is real or not, R+L=J or not, Cersei a regent or not, spoiler tags will be everywhere.

It is my vain hope that people will remember that the show has its own forum and that this is the one for the books. Spoiler tags or no, its unpleasant to scroll through a page in the book forum that is 75%+ spoilered posts that belong in another forum.

At least they are spoilered though, thanks.

I've been wondering about Jon's place in the line of succession.

I know it is said that Jon was born "around" the time of the sack of KL. But if Jon was born after the sack, that would mean that Jon was not an heir at the time Aerys died since he was still unborn.

This would mean that the throne would technically pass to Viserys on Aerys death, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son and he was born legitimate. It also makes Jon's status in the line of succession uncertain. Does he come in front of Dany or behind?

I know it's highly technical and probably irrelevant but it's pretty interesting. How would they have dealt with it a year ago if Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles and Prince William all died leaving Prince Harry and unborn Prince George?

No, it would not. The succession pauses with no king while waiting for the new child to be born. This happened several times in history, most notable examples being spain (Alfonso XII-Alfonso XIII, nearly 6 months) and france (Louis X to John I, 5 months).

[Zman1863]

No, it would not. The succession pauses with no king while waiting for the new child to be born. This happened several times in history, most notable examples being spain (Alfonso XII-Alfonso XIII, nearly 6 months) and france (Louis X to John I, 5 months).

Thanks, that's interesting.

[J. Stargaryen]

It is my vain hope that people will remember that the show has its own forum and that this is the one for the books. Spoiler tags or no, its unpleasant to scroll through a page in the book forum that is 75%+ spoilered posts that belong in another forum.

At least they are spoilered though, thanks.

No, it would not. The succession pauses with no king while waiting for the new child to be born. This happened several times in history, most notable examples being spain (Alfonso XII-Alfonso XIII, nearly 6 months) and france (Louis X to John I, 5 months).

Thanks for listing those. I can never recall, even though it's been discussed a few times.

[Alia of the knife]

I've been wondering about Jon's place in the line of succession.

I know it is said that Jon was born "around" the time of the sack of KL. But if Jon was born after the sack, that would mean that Jon was not an heir at the time Aerys died since he was still unborn.

This would mean that the throne would technically pass to Viserys on Aerys death, even if Jon is Rhaegar's son and he was born legitimate. It also makes Jon's status in the line of succession uncertain. Does he come in front of Dany or behind?

I know it's highly technical and probably irrelevant but it's pretty interesting. How would they have dealt with it a year ago if Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles and Prince William all died leaving Prince Harry and unborn Prince George?

Historically, there is also the case of Edward III, who was succeeded by his ten year old grandson, Richard II, son of the "Black Prince" who unexpectedly died.

[KKUnnie]

Hi everyone! This is my first post, but I've been lurking for a while.

I've read several versions of this thread, and other Rhaegar/Lyanna related threads. I was scared to start a new thread about them because of all the (surprisingly intense lol) hate these two get, so I thought I'd post here.

I am pretty convinced R+L=J is almost fact at this point by reading so many great posts. I also believe Lyanna was TKotLT and Rhaegar was motivated to win the tourney so that by crowning her, he could publicly honor her for her actions. I'm not quite sure I believe it was a romance at this point, I'm more inclined to believe it was simply mutual attraction + admiration on both ends.

That being said, I'm also not sure I believe it was a full-blown romance before the "abduction." Is there any evidence we have that they were in love by this point, or were in contact after Harranhal?

For a while I have wondered if they turned to each other at a crucial time with what they both thought was necessity. Rhaegar seemed to have needed another child, and polygamy was a viable option for a Targaryen. Lyanna obviously didn't want Robert as a prospective husband (for good reason), but could she just break the betrothal? Perhaps Rhaegar whisked her away and married her, and their relationship evolved into a loving one after time? I do believe whatever they did, a message of some sort was left behind. I also believe the same message was distorted and given intentionally to Brandon.

I do believe they were married as the KG at the ToJ practically confirms that, but I would like to see how others speculate a romance blossomed between them. I mean, why else would Rhaegar die with her name on his lips and Lyanna die clutching the roses?

[Alia of the knife]

Hi everyone! This is my first post, but I've been lurking for a while.

I've read several versions of this thread, and other Rhaegar/Lyanna related threads. I was scared to start a new thread about them because of all the (surprisingly intense lol) hate these two get, so I thought I'd post here.

I am pretty convinced R+L=J is almost fact at this point by reading so many great posts. I also believe Lyanna was TKotLT and Rhaegar was motivated to win the tourney so that by crowning her, he could publicly honor her for her actions. I'm not quite sure I believe it was a romance at this point, I'm more inclined to believe it was simply mutual attraction + admiration on both ends.

That being said, I'm also not sure I believe it was a full-blown romance before the "abduction." Is there any evidence we have that they were in love by this point, or were in contact after Harranhal?

For a while I have wondered if they turned to each other at a crucial time with what they both thought was necessity. Rhaegar seemed to have needed another child, and polygamy was a viable option for a Targaryen. Lyanna obviously didn't want Robert as a prospective husband (for good reason), but could she just break the betrothal? Perhaps Rhaegar whisked her away and married her, and their relationship evolved into a loving one after time? I do believe whatever they did, a message of some sort was left behind. I also believe the same message was distorted and given intentionally to Brandon.

I do believe they were married as the KG at the ToJ practically confirms that, but I would like to see how others speculate a romance blossomed between them. I mean, why else would Rhaegar die with her name on his lips and Lyanna die clutching the roses?

From Selmy:

"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it."

He is objective enough to both be critical of Rhaegar, (comparing it to the same slow poison as the loves of his ancestors), but also admire him as well.

Selmy doesn't view him as good or evil, but what might have been, for "love is the death of duty."

[CommanderBC]

I hate reading about this theory, because the more you think about it the more sense it makes.

I mean, just the fact that the KG was present where Lyanna was HIDDEN almost speaks for itself. Not to mentioned the mysterious Promise.

Ned's brusk answer to Catelyn: "“He is my blood, and that is all you need to know".

I recall Arya being compared to Lyanna in appearance. Jon and Arya are the only two of the six to have "Stark appearance rather than Tully" and are more than once mentioned to look very much alike.

I have come to believe this so much I fear I will be dissappointed if the story takes a completely different path. And I kind of hate that.

The only other theory I have is Ashara Dayne. I would kind of like this, since it would make Jon Snow a possible Sword of The Morning.

But it still doesn't explain why three of Westeros finest Knights sworn to protect the kings blood was kneeling at the foot of the tower where Lyanna Stark lay in a bed of blood. With the kind of same flower that Rhaegar gave to her instead of his own wife...

And Ned Stark, known to not be the one to lie. Why would he not have confessed when his Wife asked him plain and simple if Dayne was Jon's mother?

[Ygrain]

So Lyanna died of a "fever" in a bed of blood. Well everyone knows that with a fever your body temperature rises. My guess is that her "fever" was caused by " the blood of a dragon" meaning baby inside her. She may have had some complications during the secret pregnancy which is why Rhaegar came for her to help her. Upset baby in womb "lil dragon" will effect any mom.

The rise of body temperature is a defensive mechanism against infection. We could argue supernatural causes if there was no reason for infection, but as Lyanna's room smelled of blood, the birthing apparently didn't go well and onstart of infection was almost a given.

Hi everyone! This is my first post, but I've been lurking for a while.

I've read several versions of this thread, and other Rhaegar/Lyanna related threads. I was scared to start a new thread about them because of all the (surprisingly intense lol) hate these two get, so I thought I'd post here.

I am pretty convinced R+L=J is almost fact at this point by reading so many great posts. I also believe Lyanna was TKotLT and Rhaegar was motivated to win the tourney so that by crowning her, he could publicly honor her for her actions. I'm not quite sure I believe it was a romance at this point, I'm more inclined to believe it was simply mutual attraction + admiration on both ends.

That being said, I'm also not sure I believe it was a full-blown romance before the "abduction." Is there any evidence we have that they were in love by this point, or were in contact after Harranhal?

For a while I have wondered if they turned to each other at a crucial time with what they both thought was necessity. Rhaegar seemed to have needed another child, and polygamy was a viable option for a Targaryen. Lyanna obviously didn't want Robert as a prospective husband (for good reason), but could she just break the betrothal? Perhaps Rhaegar whisked her away and married her, and their relationship evolved into a loving one after time? I do believe whatever they did, a message of some sort was left behind. I also believe the same message was distorted and given intentionally to Brandon.

I do believe they were married as the KG at the ToJ practically confirms that, but I would like to see how others speculate a romance blossomed between them. I mean, why else would Rhaegar die with her name on his lips and Lyanna die clutching the roses?

Hello and welcome to the forums!

There is no available information about any contact between Rhaegar and Lyanna before the abduction. It has been speculated that Lyanna stayed, or returned, to the South to be groomed for her role as a Lady of Storms' End, which would make contacts easier. It is also widely believed that the marriage took place on the Isle of Faces, so conveniently located.

Someone suggested in the last Lyanna hatefest thread that perhaps initially, the "abduction" took place to save Lyanna from marriage to Robert and love came only after Rhaegar comforted Lyanna after Brandon and Rickard's deaths - a sort of Robb-Jeyne parallel.

[Ygrain]

I hate reading about this theory, because the more you think about it the more sense it makes.

I mean, just the fact that the KG was present where Lyanna was HIDDEN almost speaks for itself. Not to mentioned the mysterious Promise.

Ned's brusk answer to Robert: "“He is my blood, and that is all you need to know".

I recall Arya being compared to Lyanna in appearance. Jon and Arya are the only two of the six to have "Stark appearance rather than Tully" and are more than once mentioned to look very much alike.

I have come to believe this so much I fear I will be dissappointed if the story takes a completely different path. And I kind of hate that.

The only other theory I have is Ashara Dayne. I would kind of like this, since it would make Jon Snow a possible Sword of The Morning.

But it still doesn't explain why three of Westeros finest Knights sworn to protect the kings blood was kneeling at the foot of the tower where Lyanna Stark lay in a bed of blood. With the kind of same flower that Rhaegar gave to her instead of his own wife...

Hello and welcome to the forums :-)

As you have noted yourself, there are quite a couple of clues pointing towards R+L. GRRM has said that he would never change the outcome so that the clues wouldn't fit, so unless he can pull some miracle that would reconcile the clues with another outcome, there is nothing to fear.

Just BTW, that "my blood" part was to Catelyn, not Robert. To Robert, Ned says "Wylla", because Robert as his king is the only one whom Ned cannot hush.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Someone suggested in the last Lyanna hatefest thread that perhaps initially, the "abduction" took place to save Lyanna from marriage to Robert and love came only after Rhaegar comforted Lyanna after Brandon and Rickard's deaths - a sort of Robb-Jeyne parallel.

that's my suggestion ;____; (I think).

There is almost endless possibilities for the allegedly "abduction" not being some kind of selfish act, that the fact that many people easily think they were two wild animals full of lust who cared about nothing but themselves kinda amaze me.

For instance,

Lyanna saw in Robert something she didn't like (something besides the rumours and information she had) and decided to run away.

Rhaegar was close to the North (or Lyanna managed to get to the south) and, if he indeed discovered her as the KotLT, she asked for his help. Rhaegar, being the Prince, could help them to dissolve the betrothal. Even if he didn't at first (politically, it was dangerous) he tried to put him in a safe place until he could manage to talk with her family or Robert.

Then Brandon goes all OASIJDIOAJSDIASYDASHAS DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!, and the one dying is him and Rickard. Rhaegar and Lyanna find out. Considering how little information both sides had of the other, it was safer to keep her hidden for a while until Rhaegar could talk with a sane Stark, after all, its not improbable that men are sent to look for her and get hurt in the process. By that time, it was too late: pretty wild chic and emo harpist prince = baby.

ETA: not to justify Rhaegar's actions but, the guy was human after all. His wife not only couldn't have any more more children but he couldn't even bed her again because they couldn't risk another pregnancy. Considering that both her births almost kill her, maybe Rhaegar realise their sexual life was done for good. That's not some simple matter, even for a political marriage

[Ygrain]

Oh, so it was you!

I like this fresh take on the things, especially because it really drives home the argument that has been repeated ad nauseam yet rarely gets across: there is so little we know about the whole thing that passing any harsh judgements is irrational.

ETA: Ah, I see that you have discovered the new incarnation:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107363-lyanna-the-dishonorable-stark-v2/#entry5636012

[CommanderBC]

Hello and welcome to the forums :-)

Just BTW, that "my blood" part was to Catelyn, not Robert. To Robert, Ned says "Wylla", because Robert as his king is the only one whom Ned cannot hush.

Thank you! I have been peering though threads for months now, and could not help myself any longer. I had to chip in, although I guess this thread has seen all possible comments on the subjects ten times each already.

Yes, I proudly noticed my mistake :) I had his conversation with Cat mixed up with the one with Robert's where he just say's that he will never tell him what she looked like. Kind of a harsh way to speak to your king.

If the theory shows to be true, I am curious (lol, that's an understatement) about what Jon and Daenarys fate is and in what way they will be entwined.

It would make great sense if Howland Reed turns out to have been the KotLT. He is a small man, as the story states the KotLT was. And it would indicate that Reed cared about Lyanna so much as to accompany Ned on a crazy quest to "free" her from Rhaegar and the KG.

I am looking forward to see what all the fuss is about when it comes to the Crypts beneath Winterfell Jon has dreamt it so many times it most likely is a big plotpoint.

BTW. Is this the most active thread on the entire forum?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

ETA: not to justify Rhaegar's actions but, the guy was human after all. His wife not only couldn't have any more more children but he couldn't even bed her again because they couldn't risk another pregnancy. Considering that both her births almost kill her, maybe Rhaegar realise their sexual life was done for good. That's not some simple matter, even for a political marriage

Elia could have regularly taken moon tea, or some other potion to prevent pregnancy :) so their sexual life did not need to have been done for good..

[The guy from the Vale]

that's my suggestion ;____; (I think).

There is almost endless possibilities for the allegedly "abduction" not being some kind of selfish act, that the fact that many people easily think they were two wild animals full of lust who cared about nothing but themselves kinda amaze me.

For instance,

Lyanna saw in Robert something she didn't like (something besides the rumours and information she had) and decided to run away.

Rhaegar was close to the North (or Lyanna managed to get to the south) and, if he indeed discovered her as the KotLT, she asked for his help. Rhaegar, being the Prince, could help them to dissolve the betrothal. Even if he didn't at first (politically, it was dangerous) he tried to put him in a safe place until he could manage to talk with her family or Robert.

Then Brandon goes all OASIJDIOAJSDIASYDASHAS DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!, and the one dying is him and Rickard. Rhaegar and Lyanna find out. Considering how little information both sides had of the other, it was safer to keep her hidden for a while until Rhaegar could talk with a sane Stark, after all, its not improbable that men are sent to look for her and get hurt in the process. By that time, it was too late: pretty wild chic and emo harpist prince = baby.

ETA: not to justify Rhaegar's actions but, the guy was human after all. His wife not only couldn't have any more more children but he couldn't even bed her again because they couldn't risk another pregnancy. Considering that both her births almost kill her, maybe Rhaegar realise their sexual life was done for good. That's not some simple matter, even for a political marriage

I am personally partial to the idea that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna not because he loved her or wanted his prophecy child from her (although they may have been part of it), but because Aerys had figured out who the KotLT had been, and wanted her tried for treason. That makes them hiding and staying out of communication more reasonable - if Aerys knows where they are, Lyanna's life is forfeit too.

Thank you! I have been peering though threads for months now, and could not help myself any longer. I had to chip in, although I guess this thread has seen all possible comments on the subjects ten times each already.

Yes, I proudly noticed my mistake :) I had his conversation with Cat mixed up with the one with Robert's where he just say's that he will never tell him what she looked like. Kind of a harsh way to speak to your king.

If the theory shows to be true, I am curious (lol, that's an understatement) about what Jon and Daenarys fate is and in what way they will be entwined.

It would make great sense if Howland Reed turns out to have been the KotLT. He is a small man, as the story states the KotLT was. And it would indicate that Reed cared about Lyanna so much as to accompany Ned on a crazy quest to "free" her from Rhaegar and the KG.

I am looking forward to see what all the fuss is about when it comes to the Crypts beneath Winterfell Jon has dreamt it so many times it most likely is a big plotpoint.

BTW. Is this the most active thread on the entire forum?

The KotLT was good enough a jouster to unseat three trained knights. While none of those were the cream of the crop, someody who had no experience riding a horse (like Howland) would e out of their depth. Lyanna, on the other hand, was said to be "half a horse" by Roose Bolton, so she had a reputation apparently. And it would mean that Reed would feel even more indebted to Lyanna, as she would have defended not just his life, but also his honor.

As for being the most active thread, that honor probably goes to the Heresy threads, which do however cover a much broader set of issues. This is probably the most active single-topic thread on the forum.