J. Stargaryen Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 What should be kept in mind, is that: TV!Oberyn tells us that Elia would not let the wetnurse touch her children, but several lines before, he tells Tyrion that he hadn't been in KL since Elia's wedding. This suggests that Oberyn either only saw Elia at the Tourney at Harrenhal, in 281AC, or they met up during another tourney once as well, since IIRC there is a tourney in the books where Rhaegar unhorses Oberyn at a tourney, but I haven't looked as to when this tourney could have taken place. However, with Rhaenys having been born in 280AC, and with Elia on bedrest for 6 months following the birth.. after which she apparently, for an unknown reason, travelled past the Kingswood where the brotherhood attacked her. Due to the LC of the KG being present there, I'd say that this could not have been a long trip, since Aerys most likely would have wanted his LC as his own protector. After the brotherhood, there were only a few short months (2 or 3) until the tourney at Harrenhal, after which Elia got pregnant, and did not leave KL.There would thus have been little time for Elia to visit home, and Oberyn would have been travelling as well. Information from the RPG suggests that Oberyn left for the Disputed Lands after Elia's wedding, and he spend maximally 2 or 3 years there, depending on when Elia's marriage took place. Why am I stating all of this? I wonder how Oberyn learned how Elia felt about the wetnurse taking care of her children? I can't imagine someone writing in a letter "I won't t that woman, whose job it is to care for my children, to touch my children!", especially when Oberyn is in Essos. And there is a big chance that Rhaenys didn't come along to Harrenhal, so how would it have come up? The point I'm trying to make.. I don't think this can be added to evidence for fAegon (as in Elia would never stay with a substitute child and leave her own child in another room with murderers in the castle) Show cannon =/= book cannon, so this analysis doesn't really tell us anything. That said, it's probably not a coincidence that Oberyn's quote reminded a lot of fandom of Elia holding Aegon right before the Mountain murdered them both. Your discussion is now pretty much all about the books, you don't need to spoiler tag that, it's ok speak freely. Not true because people who have yet to see the episode could be spoiled about some of its topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Show cannon =/= book cannon, so this analysis doesn't really tell us anything. That said, it's probably not a coincidence that Oberyn's quote reminded a lot of fandom of Elia holding Aegon right before the Mountain murdered them both. Not true because people who have yet to see the episode could be spoiled about some of its topics. And it contained information from WoW sample chapter, which, IIRC, should remain in spoiler tags until 3 months after the release of the book :) I know that show =/= book, but I saw that there was a small tendency to view it as "show evidence" hinting towards the fAegon theory. I thought I'd mention the other possibilities as well, before they were forgotten :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Yes, Arianne did mention in the sample chapter to have held Rhaenys once, so Doran and Arianne perhaps visited the capital once? There's also the possibility that Rhaenys was originally in the nursery, but ran out in panick and fear after a while. Elia, who spend half a year in bed after birthing Rhaenys and nearly died giving birth to Aegon, might not have been recovered well enough to speed after Rhaenys, to catch her in time and bring her back. We don't know anything about Rhaenys at all, except that she had a kitten (loving that cat, btw, and the way he every now and then shows up in KL :D ), for all we know, Rhaenys had a habit of hiding (sort of playing hide and seek with unwilling handmaidens of Elia and guards), and having to make the choice, Elia chose to remain in the nursery, to protect the child whose life would be the deciding factor in what kind of life Aegon would live (if the child in the nursery was indeed a substitute).I also think TRV statement lends itself to the theory that the Lannisters and Pycelle were trying to sabatage Elia, so another reason for her to be personally involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 After seeing the episode again, I personally don't believe Oberyn's statement about Elia and her children. For instance, she was bedridden for about half a year. Caring mother or not, she needed help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Show cannon =/= book cannon, so this analysis doesn't really tell us anything. That said, it's probably not a coincidence that Oberyn's quote reminded a lot of fandom of Elia holding Aegon right before the Mountain murdered them both. Not true because people who have yet to see the episode could be spoiled about some of its topics. I just felt they had pretty much entered the relm of all book in the last couple of posts. Hey do what you want I just thought it was funny. Ser Pounce does not need a spoiler tag in general. It's general, don't go in general if you don't want ot be spoiled, the mods tell people that. If you are just a show watcher, or only read one or two books and you don't want to be spoiled, probably not the best place for you. Not you, you but you know them. The name of the thread itself is a massive spoiler for the new folks. Any newbs here? Guess what, Joff dies at his wedding, poisoned. Jon Snow is Lyanna and Rhaegars, yep. I get the spoiler tags for all show talk, like when the focus is the show, I get that and I do that, it just felt like they had gone into all book, that's all, and thought it was funny that Ser Pounce pulled a spoiler tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkSister Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 These forums are going to be pretty funny once show overtakes the books. Whether Aegon is real or not, R+L=J or not, Cersei a regent or not, spoiler tags will be everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 So I've been reading a lot lately that Lyanna is to blame for everything, Rhaegar too. Is this true? Regardless of there reasons, are they not worthy of any forgiveness?Are they the most evil characters in the entire series? I used to think I knew :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 So I've been reading a lot lately that Lyanna is to blame for everything, Rhaegar too. Is this true? Regardless of there reasons, are they not worthy of any forgiveness?Are they the most evil characters in the entire series? I used to think I knew :(They were a catalyst to some of the events of the story, no question. But evil? Well we don't really know them and what little text there is suggests otherwise. Unfortunatly it's wait and see, and with Martin you never really know. Who knows what forces were fully at work, love, Bloodraven, Varys, Bloodraven, a secret plot, Bloodraven. He plays with people like toys, how do you think all those seers ended up dead? "Well back to the Drawing board, maybe if I get a toy that's already broken I won't break it any more than it is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tellus Explorer Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I wonder if Mr. Martin, will let John's parentage stay a mystery and have everyone run a muck, like chickens with their heads cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 I wonder if Mr. Martin, will let John's parentage stay a mystery and have everyone run a muck, like chickens with their heads cut off.Already said Jon would find out about his mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0bR Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 So I've been reading a lot lately that Lyanna is to blame for everything, Rhaegar too. Is this true? Regardless of there reasons, are they not worthy of any forgiveness?Are they the most evil characters in the entire series? I used to think I knew :(They were obviously evil. Contrary to the popular knowledge, TPTWP is supposed to destroy the world and help the Others in doing so. Since Rhaegar was literally Hitler, he sought the ways to fulfil it once he read about it in the Book of Evil Stuff. When Lyanna heard about the possibility to destroy the glorious harmony of patriarchy, she immediately jumped onto the bandwagon as she felt an innate need to make that happen by all means possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisenyaLives Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 So Lyanna died of a "fever" in a bed of blood. Well everyone knows that with a fever your body temperature rises. My guess is that her "fever" was caused by " the blood of a dragon" meaning baby inside her. She may have had some complications during the secret pregnancy which is why Rhaegar came for her to help her. Upset baby in womb "lil dragon" will effect any mom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 They were obviously evil. Contrary to the popular knowledge, TPTWP is supposed to destroy the world and help the Others in doing so. Since Rhaegar was literally Hitler, he sought the ways to fulfil it once he read about it in the Book of Evil Stuff. When Lyanna heard about the possibility to destroy the glorious harmony of patriarchy, she immediately jumped onto the bandwagon as she felt an innate need to make that happen by all means possible.Rhaegar was Hitler? I though he was Mance... I used to think I knew :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 So Lyanna died of a "fever" in a bed of blood. Well everyone knows that with a fever your body temperature rises. My guess is that her "fever" was caused by " the blood of a dragon" meaning baby inside her. She may have had some complications during the secret pregnancy which is why Rhaegar came for her to help her. Upset baby in womb "lil dragon" will effect any mom.I always assumed it was puerperal fever, but I like the more symbolic rather than medical explanation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "bed of blood" is used in other places in the books to mean childbirth, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 They were obviously evil. Contrary to the popular knowledge, TPTWP is supposed to destroy the world and help the Others in doing so. Since Rhaegar was literally Hitler, he sought the ways to fulfil it once he read about it in the Book of Evil Stuff. When Lyanna heard about the possibility to destroy the glorious harmony of patriarchy, she immediately jumped onto the bandwagon as she felt an innate need to make that happen by all means possible.Sorry that is wrong it's not the book of evil stuff, it's called the Necronomicon Ex-Mortis, and then Rhaegar said the words."Klaatu Barada N... Necktie... Neckturn... Nickel... It's an "N" word, it's definitely an "N" word! Klaatu... Barada... N..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Rhaegar was Hitler? I though he was Mance... I used to think I knew :(You know no... I can't say it, I can't be that guy, i'm sorry I... I... I just refuse to be that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar I Targaryen Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 You know no... I can't say it, I can't be that guy, i'm sorry I... I... I just refuse to be that guy. I do know some things..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I like the dragon imagery/fever as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisenyaLives Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Well wasn't Robert B pretty much speeding lots of time at brothels and whores before the war. And Lyanna knew and she was pretty much fed up with him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VisenyaLives Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 I like the dragon imagery/fever as well.It would make sense especially the quote of " you don't want to wake the dragon". Angry baby= blood boiling=fever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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