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R + L = J v 69


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#1 Stubby

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 12:16 AM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)


"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)


"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty) 

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one) 

 

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

 

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

 

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

 

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

 

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

 

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

 

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)



#2 Ygrain

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:20 AM

Wow, a new one already? :-)

 

Over here, the OP made an interesting catch, concerning the theory that there is Rhaegar's harp hidden in Lyanna's tomb:

 

"A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." - Littlefinger 

 

Furthermore, he collected all the references to Rhaegar's harp, and there are quite a few. One would almost say, too many for it not to be significant in some way.



#3 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:44 AM

Wow, a new one already? :-)

 

Over here, the OP made an interesting catch, concerning the theory that there is Rhaegar's harp hidden in Lyanna's tomb:

 

"A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." - Littlefinger 

 

Furthermore, he collected all the references to Rhaegar's harp, and there are quite a few. One would almost say, too many for it not to be significant in some way.

 

Sounds very interesting. And I agree, too many references to Rhaegar's harp have been made to have absolutely no meaning :)

 

But the harp on the tomb (as the OP suggested) I don't think likely. However, the harp inside the tomb... together with a Targaryen cloak (to symbolize the wedding) it could prove the wedding. But in that case, what would the harp symbolize?



#4 KingofSothoryos

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:48 AM

Sounds very interesting. And I agree, too many references to Rhaegar's harp have been made to have absolutely no meaning :)
 
But the harp on the tomb (as the OP suggested) I don't think likely. However, the harp inside the tomb... together with a Targaryen cloak (to symbolize the wedding) it could prove the wedding. But in that case, what would the harp symbolize?


The SONG of ice and fire?

#5 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:16 AM

The SONG of ice and fire?

 

But it's in Lyanna's tomb. So that would make Lyanna the song?



#6 FrozenFire3

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:20 AM

Wow, a new one already? :-)

 

Over here, the OP made an interesting catch, concerning the theory that there is Rhaegar's harp hidden in Lyanna's tomb:

 

"A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." - Littlefinger 

 

Furthermore, he collected all the references to Rhaegar's harp, and there are quite a few. One would almost say, too many for it not to be significant in some way.

 

Interesting catch indeed. I stumbled upon and pondered over the same passage some time ago but I didn't draw the parallel harp/sword as in proof of some Rhaegar's souvenir hidden in Lyanna's tomb LOL Interesting enough that quote is preceded by another LF's pearl of wisdom:

 

It is rude to pry into the origins of a man's natural children

 

If we accept the harp/sword/hidden legacy parallel, LF's lines hint at Rhaegar, Lyanna, Jon and Ned within the same passage. Coincidence?

 

 

But it's in Lyanna's tomb. So that would make Lyanna the song?

 

No, that would make Lyanna the keeper and vessel of the Song.


Edited by FrozenFire3, 16 January 2014 - 04:22 AM.


#7 HosteenOsteen

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 07:59 AM

I am not sure it is quite that, but I do think something is in the crypt, and the crypt--so prominent early on in AGOT and also in the bran sections of ACOK--may well be where all this is discovered. 



#8 Moondancer

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 08:07 AM

If something is indeed hidden in Lyanna's tomb, I think the harp has small chances to fill the spot. Harp in the tomb - to what purpose?

 

We know Lyanna was very weak the moments before dying. All her strength went to expressing her concern and obtaining a promise from Ned, so she is not likely to elaborate on her imminent demise and further arrangements, except for asking to be buried in Winterfell, according to Ned.

 

Ned was devastated, numb from pain. Yet he found strength to move on, bury the Knights and fallen vassals, went to Dorne. So he would have the presence of mind to take something from the tower with him, as to honour his sister, to take something that was important to her.

 

But why harp? Harp would be a token of Lyanna's (and vice versa) fondness for Rhaegar, at best. (I firmly believe Ned at least suspected his sisters true feelings given that he remembers she clutched at the withered blue roses, that once formed the tourney crown) But would the harp really carry any meaning, to both Ned and Lyanna? You have to take Ned into consideration, because he buried her.

 

I think it is something that binds the siblings. Something that would ease Ned's pain and give justice to the deceased sister; the burying speaks mainly of Ned - the last actions for his sister, the ritualistic relief that serves to sooth his suffering. Just because Ned didn't storm off to King's Landing doesn't mean he didn't comprehend Lyanna's position - a high born lady, reduced to being forced to serve as a mistress.

 

It would have to be something that hints or directly shows Lyanna's true status in her relationship to Rhaegar, that speaks both to the truth and to the realm. She is not a used, raped girl.

 

A wedding cloak. An egg. Something that would be loud/incriminating enough as well, so to necessitate a hiding place, for a tomb is as much as vault as a resting place.

 

The harp is... meaningless.

 



#9 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 09:32 AM

If something is indeed hidden in Lyanna's tomb, I think the harp has small chances to fill the spot. Harp in the tomb - to what purpose?

 

We know Lyanna was very weak the moments before dying. All her strength went to expressing her concern and obtaining a promise from Ned, so she is not likely to elaborate on her imminent demise and further arrangements, except for asking to be buried in Winterfell, according to Ned.

 

Ned was devastated, numb from pain. Yet he found strength to move on, bury the Knights and fallen vassals, went to Dorne. So he would have the presence of mind to take something from the tower with him, as to honour his sister, to take something that was important to her.

 

But why harp? Harp would be a token of Lyanna's (and vice versa) fondness for Rhaegar, at best. (I firmly believe Ned at least suspected his sisters true feelings given that he remembers she clutched at the withered blue roses, that once formed the tourney crown) But would the harp really carry any meaning, to both Ned and Lyanna? You have to take Ned into consideration, because he buried her.

 

I think it is something that binds the siblings. Something that would ease Ned's pain and give justice to the deceased sister; the burying speaks mainly of Ned - the last actions for his sister, the ritualistic relief that serves to sooth his suffering. Just because Ned didn't storm off to King's Landing doesn't mean he didn't comprehend Lyanna's position - a high born lady, reduced to being forced to serve as a mistress.

 

It would have to be something that hints or directly shows Lyanna's true status in her relationship to Rhaegar, that speaks both to the truth and to the realm. She is not a used, raped girl.

 

A wedding cloak. An egg. Something that would be loud/incriminating enough as well, so to necessitate a hiding place, for a tomb is as much as vault as a resting place.

 

The harp is... meaningless.

 

 

O_o An egg! But that would only make sense if Rhaenys and Aegon had one too, and I don't believe they did.



#10 Greymoon

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 09:52 AM


The harp is... meaningless.

 

 

Perhaps for westerosis, but as a symbol the harp is far from meaningless. It is associated to kingship, wisdom, communication with the divine, deities, the gift of prophecy, prophets (David) etc. it is also said to manipulate emotions, especially in Irish mythology:

 

The harp has a significant place in Irish Mythology. It is depicted as a powerful manipulator of emotions and bodily states, endowed with the ability to make those who hear it laugh or cry uncontrollably, and it also has the power to induce sleep.[...] Another notable mythological harper is Aengus Og, a handsome youth and son of the Dagda, whose golden stringed harp of silver has the power to attract birds and wild animals, and also the power to attract and bespell maidens.

 

from: http://www.geocities..._harps/myth.htm

 

other information may be found here:

 

http://www.karynhenl...ps_in_Myth.html
http://dorveille.com...d-and-folklore/

 

I'm not sure if there is a harp in Lyanna's tomb, but I think we can deduce something from the fact that Rhaegar is presented with a harp. I see the harp as a clue put there by GRRM for us to question the story of Lyanna's abduction and Rhaegar's character: the harp with its positive and godly attributes implies that Rhaegar was not an evil prince, that there was a prophecy involved - and that Lyanna was "bespelled" by the beauty of his song - so she went willingly.



#11 ZachPruckowski

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:21 AM

But why harp? Harp would be a token of Lyanna's (and vice versa) fondness for Rhaegar, at best. (I firmly believe Ned at least suspected his sisters true feelings given that he remembers she clutched at the withered blue roses, that once formed the tourney crown) But would the harp really carry any meaning, to both Ned and Lyanna? You have to take Ned into consideration, because he buried her.

 

I think it is something that binds the siblings. Something that would ease Ned's pain and give justice to the deceased sister; the burying speaks mainly of Ned - the last actions for his sister, the ritualistic relief that serves to sooth his suffering. Just because Ned didn't storm off to King's Landing doesn't mean he didn't comprehend Lyanna's position - a high born lady, reduced to being forced to serve as a mistress.

 

Relief.  Ned and Robert went to King's Landing thinking that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna - that he straight up nabbed her from Winterfell and intended to imprison/rape her.  Ned spent basically a year running all around Westeros fighting a war thinking that his sister was Rhaegar's prisoner.  But then he gets to the Tower of the Hand and fights through the Kingsguard and reaches Lyanna and in fact all those horrors he was imagining were wrong - yeah, she's still dying in childbirth, but the whole "Rhaegar is a psycho doing unspeakable things to your sister for a year" part was false.  That's got to be a heck of a burden lifted from one's heart.  The harp reminds him that whatever else happened, Lyanna loved Rhaegar and was happy.

But it's also a new burden added - now Ned knows the whole Robert's Rebellion thing and Rhaegar's death (and Rhaegar's childrens' deaths) was based on a lie.  Tens of thousands of dead because Ned made a mistake (or wasn't close enough to Lyanna, or whatever), and he's got to keep the secret.



#12 Lady Gwynhyfvar

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:22 AM

Here we are at the long awaited v.69 :P

 

I expect much discussion of the early days at the ToJ, and perhaps a few tangents into Jon and Ygritte's time together ;)

 

In the meantime... Interesting that the harp idea is coming up again. As someone in the new thread mentioned, this was discussed not long ago here, right down to the Littlefinger quote-- which I agree is a great catch and ties nicely to some of the themes that were touched on regarding swords in the last thread. I had my own take on it here which I'll copy because I think it addresses some of the points raised above:

 

 

 

Posted 18 November 2013 - 10:21 AM

Welcome to the board cantuse! I'm so happy to read your theory here. yolkboy mentioned the harp to me a little while ago and I must admit it caused a great deal of excitement because it meshed so well with thoughts I've had about what's in Lyanna's tomb.

 

As Arya kiddin' mentioned, I have posited a trio of items as in royal regalia (like this ) Crown, scepter and sword are traditional, but as someone noted a sword doesn't fit well with Rhaegar, nor does he seem to have an ancestral sword to give. The harp though, as you note, is pure Rhaegar and works very well as a substitute. As far as portability, they come in all sizes. Ned returned Lyanna's bones, not her body. Frankly I don't see an issue with the harp, and whatever else was being placed in there with her, all going into one box for the journey.

 

Back to the regalia-- the crown would be Torrhen Stark's crown which was surrendered to Aegon the Conqueror. I believe this theory originated with butterbumps! and I must say once I heard it I was sold. We know that Rhaegar was a "researcher" and can speculate that he spent a lot of time going through old manuscripts and troves in his youth. The theory is that he discovered the crown and returned it to Lyanna-- a symbol that he was returning sovereignty to the Starks perhaps, but most definitely an object that screams Stark, yet could only have come from a Targ.

 

That leaves object three and here again, I'm in agreement with those who posit a dragon's egg, especially given the evidence of cradle eggs from D&E. (I also happen to believe the egg will "green and swirly", as in the egg of... well, Egg) An egg standing in for the scepter is especially tantalizing when you consider that the scepter (or wand) was at one time associated with magic. Which particular magic are the Targs connected with? Yep, dragons. The egg, unlike the other objects which would prove love between R+L (harp) and legitimacy of intent between R+L (crown) would be specifically for Jon. If he were able to bond with an egg that would be one thing that would prove his heritage beyond a shadow of a doubt. But just having it there, imo, points to a Targ baby being involved.

 

Now the final piece of this that had me so jazzed. Being a fan of all things Arthurian I was most excited about the addition of the harp to my speculative group of objects because of its association with Wales and King Arthur. The dragon and crown both appear on arms generally attributed to Arthur, both dragon and harp are closely associated with Wales (and the bardic tradition) and early Britons named the constellation Lyra "Arthur's Harp"  Since I see Jon as an Arthur figure (not the only one in ASoIaF mind you) these connections sealed the deal on how symbolically fantastic this particular trio would be.

 

and

 

 

 

Posted 19 November 2013 - 09:40 AM

I think you're right cantuse. The significance of the harp would be to show the depth of R+L, proving that rather than rape and abduction, there was real feeling involved. Since the nature of his parents' relationship is also something Jon worries about, it would serve as a real solace to him in the bittersweet moment of the reveal.

 

One of the reason I favor the regalia idea is the triple purpose the items serve-

the harp proves love

the crown proves legitimacy (Stark via Targ)

the egg proves identity

 

Of course, the egg theory is based on information from D&E and spoilers from the upcoming Princess and the Queen, so it's much more subtle. At the end of the day, I agree with those who have noted that Jon is hardly likely to start pillaging his (believed) aunt's tomb on his own, and I doubt even with the assistance of his dreams. The information will have to come from someone. I think we can all agree HR seems the most likely candidate.

 

eta- Rhaenys, I think we need to keep an open mind about the distribution of cradle eggs. It's a practice we know continued at least up until the generation of Aegon V and so far we have no indicators that it was discontinued at any time prior to Daenerys, who was born in exile. Sure, Viserys doesn't mention having one but that could be because he understands it was lost in the flight from KL (and be part of what fuels his rage) There's also the possibility the practice was discontinued after Summerhall, and Rhaegar discovered something which led him to revive the tradition. It's all speculation at this point beyond the fact that we know it was once an important marker of Targ identity.


Edited by Lady Gwynhyfvar, 16 January 2014 - 12:24 PM.


#13 MtnLion

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:48 AM

I was reading D&E and kept noticing how not only did Aegon shve his head, but he removed his ring and hid that as well.  Signet rings can identify people not only in person, but stamped in a seal on correspondence.  I like the harp and wedding cloak, as well as an egg, but I really believe there will be something very key, like a signet ring. 



#14 Ygrain

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:57 AM

Rhaenys_Targaryen, on 16 Jan 2014 - 3:32 PM, said:

 

O_o An egg! But that would only make sense if Rhaenys and Aegon had one too, and I don't believe they did.

I've theorized that Rhaegar's emo trips to Summerhall were just a cover-up for another activity and that he was looking for Egg's eggs which he had tried to hatch.

 

 

Moondancer, on 16 Jan 2014 - 2:07 PM, said:

If something is indeed hidden in Lyanna's tomb, I think the harp has small chances to fill the spot. Harp in the tomb - to what purpose?

 

We know Lyanna was very weak the moments before dying. All her strength went to expressing her concern and obtaining a promise from Ned, so she is not likely to elaborate on her imminent demise and further arrangements, except for asking to be buried in Winterfell, according to Ned.

 

Ned was devastated, numb from pain. Yet he found strength to move on, bury the Knights and fallen vassals, went to Dorne. So he would have the presence of mind to take something from the tower with him, as to honour his sister, to take something that was important to her.

 

But why harp? Harp would be a token of Lyanna's (and vice versa) fondness for Rhaegar, at best. (I firmly believe Ned at least suspected his sisters true feelings given that he remembers she clutched at the withered blue roses, that once formed the tourney crown) But would the harp really carry any meaning, to both Ned and Lyanna? You have to take Ned into consideration, because he buried her.

 

I think it is something that binds the siblings. Something that would ease Ned's pain and give justice to the deceased sister; the burying speaks mainly of Ned - the last actions for his sister, the ritualistic relief that serves to sooth his suffering. Just because Ned didn't storm off to King's Landing doesn't mean he didn't comprehend Lyanna's position - a high born lady, reduced to being forced to serve as a mistress.

 

It would have to be something that hints or directly shows Lyanna's true status in her relationship to Rhaegar, that speaks both to the truth and to the realm. She is not a used, raped girl.

 

A wedding cloak. An egg. Something that would be loud/incriminating enough as well, so to necessitate a hiding place, for a tomb is as much as vault as a resting place.

 

The harp is... meaningless.

 

 

 

We do not know how much time passed between the fight and Lyanna's death, Ned could have been by her bed for hours.

 

And the harp is not meaningless - it would be the only way for her to be reunited with the man she loved, and for the rest of Westeros, it's a huge neon sign because no way would Ned Stark bury his sister with a reminder of the man who raped/dishonoured her.



#15 Budj

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 12:35 PM

I was reading D&E and kept noticing how not only did Aegon shve his head, but he removed his ring and hid that as well.  Signet rings can identify people not only in person, but stamped in a seal on correspondence.  I like the harp and wedding cloak, as well as an egg, but I really believe there will be something very key, like a signet ring. 

 

I agree with this.

 

I like the symbolism of the egg being in the tomb, but part of me wonders if the 3 eggs Dany received were the stash that Rhaegar had for his children.



#16 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:51 PM

eta- Rhaenys, I think we need to keep an open mind about the distribution of cradle eggs. It's a practice we know continued at least up until the generation of Aegon V and so far we have no indicators that it was discontinued at any time prior to Daenerys, who was born in exile. Sure, Viserys doesn't mention having one but that could be because he understands it was lost in the flight from KL (and be part of what fuels his rage) There's also the possibility the practice was discontinued after Summerhall, and Rhaegar discovered something which led him to revive the tradition. It's all speculation at this point beyond the fact that we know it was once an important marker of Targ identity.

 

Yeah, I know the distribution of eggs isn't set in stone. But my point was this one: Rhaegar was, in my opinion, trying to create his own trio: Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya. Perhaps he named his eldest child Rhaenys because the original Aegon loved the original Rhaenys more than Visenya, and any child that Rhaegars Rhaenys and Aegon would have, would be born from the two eldest children, and their claim to the throne would be better (I guess the World book will be able to tell me how right I am about this within a year:) ).

 

But Rhaegar was trying to create his own Rhaenys, Aegon and Visenya, and the only one he still lacked, was a Visenya. It would be strange for him to leave a dragon's egg at ToJ for his Visenya, when Rhaenys and especially Aegon wouldn't have one. That's why I said that it would only make sense for a dragons egg to have been at ToJ for Lyanna's child if Rhaenys and Aegon had an egg as well.

 

Rhaenys_Targaryen, on 16 Jan 2014 - 3:32 PM, said:

 

O_o An egg! But that would only make sense if Rhaenys and Aegon had one too, and I don't believe they did.

I've theorized that Rhaegar's emo trips to Summerhall were just a cover-up for another activity and that he was looking for Egg's eggs which he had tried to hatch.

 

 

 

Could be that he found some, indeed. But with all the rumours about dragon's eggs at Dragonstone, you'd think he'd go looking for them there..



#17 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 02:15 PM

I just said in the other thread that to me, Jon having a dragon in an egg in the tomb seems like a good reason for those old Kings of Winter to treat him like they supposedly were. They weren't trying to say to Jon that he didn't belong there, but the dragon didn't.

 

Those old Kings probably had bastards of their own, so Jon running around in Winterfell isn't that big of a deal, even Brandon Snow seemed to have been raised there? (Friend of Torrhen Stark?) At best Jon is a legitimate heir of the female Stark line. Not a big deal either, since that tends to happen more often, too.

 

But what would happen if Ned were to have put a dragon egg in Lyanna's crypt, a place meant for the rest of the Wolves and direwolves? I don't think it's that smart (they wouldn't be happy).

 

Didn't the Old Kings turn their heads toward Ned, too?

 

 

I'd love to go reread those scenes now, but I don't have the time now. Later, hopefully.



#18 Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 03:30 PM

Didn't Jon have several dreams about visiting the tombs of Winterfell, and while he screamed that he didn't belong there, he was constantly drawn further and further down? Perhaps, unknowingly, to Lyanna's tomb?



#19 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:45 PM

This was said in the other thread:

 

So is Jon's dream really only showing him there is something linked to his parentage in the crypts? Or is it aso foreshadowing his death at the hands of the NW and the fact that he will return from the dead as he doesn't belong in the crypts yet?

 

Of course I think there has to be something in the crypts waiting for Jon from Lyanna (and/or Rhaegar). But it's possible the dream is not pointing towards that in particular at the moment.

 

However, if we consider that Jon's dream is telling him there is something he needs to discover in the crypts, my best guess would be a dragon egg. Because we have seen it with Daenerys, the dragons were calling her in her sleep and showing her the way. At least the presence of a dragon egg would be, imo, a more compelling evidence for Jon's identity as a Targaryen, even more so if he manages to hatch it.

 

So perhaps it's a bit of experiencing alike things.



#20 Lyse Stark

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 06:02 PM

I just said in the other thread that to me, Jon having a dragon in an egg in the tomb seems like a good reason for those old Kings of Winter to treat him like they supposedly were. They weren't trying to say to Jon that he didn't belong there, but the dragon didn't.
 
Those old Kings probably had bastards of their own, so Jon running around in Winterfell isn't that big of a deal, even Brandon Snow seemed to have been raised there? (Friend of Torrhen Stark?) At best Jon is a legitimate heir of the female Stark line. Not a big deal either, since that tends to happen more often, too.
 
But what would happen if Ned were to have put a dragon egg in Lyanna's crypt, a place meant for the rest of the Wolves and direwolves? I don't think it's that smart (they wouldn't be happy).
 
Didn't the Old Kings turn their heads toward Ned, too?
 
 
I'd love to go reread those scenes now, but I don't have the time now. Later, hopefully.

True, true, especially if they know that Jon is not a Stark but a Targaryen. But we all know about Jon's direwolf, Ghost.

And a dragon egg calling from the crypt would have interesting implications on the storyline, especially if Jon is resisting the call because he is too frightened to face the truth of who he really is. And our poor shy little bastard does want to be a Stark, but the real truth of his parentage will shatter the identity that Jon has as Ned's bastard.

Edited by Lyse Stark, 16 January 2014 - 06:03 PM.