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R+L=J v.76


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#1 Angalin

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:20 AM

Posting first, then quoting Stubby... hang on, people.



#2 Angalin

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:21 AM

PLEASE REPORT THE THREAD ONCE IT REACHES 400 POSTS.  THANK YOU.

 

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

 

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

 

Spoiler

 


Edited by Angalin, 21 March 2014 - 12:51 PM.
added link to #75


#3 Ser Creighton

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:24 AM

There are like 6 duplicates of these on the board, just an fyi

#4 King Joffrey's Revenge

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:26 AM

There are like 6 duplicates of these on the board, just an fyi

 

heyheyhey..... 7th time the charm, right?



#5 FrozenFire3

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:30 AM

So, this argument is extremely intimidating, what with the 75 threads and as a relative new comer I find it very difficult to put everything together.

 

Can one of you guys give us a summery of all the major points, and what you consider to be the best textual evidence.  Or provide a link to something like that. I really want to get in on the game but I feel unprepared.

 

Welcome to the thread, Julia Martell!

 

This is a good start :)



#6 MtnLion

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:47 AM

 

 

 Let's see if the spoiler tag works for me:

 

Previous thread links in the following spoiler:

Spoiler
 

 

There, I have added the last one, and cleaned up the formatting. 


Edited by MtnLion, 21 March 2014 - 11:54 AM.


#7 Jon Weirgaryen

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:14 PM

Posting first, then quoting Stubby... hang on, people.

 

Uh, why...

 

 

Quoting Stubby

 

...not edit the first post to contain all the relevant cargo? The Link to v 75 is still missing, not that I miss v 75 ;-)

 

eta: @MtnLion noted that...


Edited by Jon Weirgaryen, 21 March 2014 - 12:15 PM.


#8 Ser Creighton

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:41 PM

heyheyhey..... 7th time the charm, right?

You think this is funny do you? How long do you think those clones will be happy looking up at the master pinned at the top of General? And what will you do when the cold winds blow and the 6 that are one come for us? Huddle near your quotes? Pray to the Mods? Winters coming.

Let's see if the spoiler tag works for me:
 
Previous thread links in the following spoiler:

Spoiler
 
 
There, I have added the last one, and cleaned up the formatting.

The crypts of R+L=J ripe full of the departed, the ghosts of the past may soon walk again.

On a side note, Lion do you think you can add a link to an online dictionary? Nothing like dictionary quotes, can't get enough of those. Perhaps it will lead to another spirited debate over what the side of a boat is called.

Edited by Ser Creighton, 21 March 2014 - 12:45 PM.


#9 Angalin

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:53 PM

There are like 6 duplicates of these on the board, just an fyi

Thanks, I've cleaned them up now. The board did NOT appreciate having to handle the quoted post and hiccuped a lot at the effort.

 

 

Uh, why...

 

 

 

...not edit the first post to contain all the relevant cargo? The Link to v 75 is still missing, not that I miss v 75 ;-)

 

eta: @MtnLion noted that...

Life intervened. A link to #75 has now been added to the master list. 



#10 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:57 PM

Thanks again. ;)



#11 Julia Martell

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:17 PM

Alright. I'm, like, 85% convinced.

 

But I can't sake the feeling that GRRM is fucking with us.



#12 FrozenFire3

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:23 PM

Alright. I'm, like, 85% convinced.

 

But I can't sake the feeling that GRRM is fucking with us.

 

Let's have a look at what GRRM has to say about this feeling of yours ;)

 

The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

 

Source



#13 Julia Martell

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:36 PM

I can't find the source but apparently, he asked the guys making the show "Who are Jon Snow's parents?" and based on their answer decided he could work with them. 

 

That story really made me nervous about the whole thing.

 

Like a said, I'm a R+L=J n00b. You guys are ultra-sophisticaled and will probably just chuckle and provide a link for everything I say.  :dunce:

 

I'm here to learn!  :bowdown:



#14 MtnLion

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:38 PM

We need it on this thread (and it is new):

 

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewynn and Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident.  He knew about Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his on maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds.  He knew that Jaime had been in the Red Keep during the battle.  He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.  

 

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three.  Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.  

 

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell.  He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle.  They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper.  This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.  

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand.  Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king.  He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.  

 

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Ser Gerold condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present.  Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys.  He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.  

 

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned.  He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not.  This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.  

 

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.  Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Oswell Whent is on his knee.  That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.  

 

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected.  This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic.  He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later.  He called them a shining example to the rest of the world.  In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection.  This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal.  It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage.  It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.  

 

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.  

 

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection.  Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold would not flee from King’s Landing with the queen and prince, that he would instead stay at the side of the King. 

 

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly.  Jaime was the only Kingsguard so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with the king, Elia, and her children. 

 

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone.  The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult.  The White Bull is stating that they would have chosen to stay with the king, rather than flee with the queen and prince.  

 

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys.   The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then).  It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation to stay at the tower (now).  

 

 “We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay.  He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king.  Several things contribute to this conclusion:

  • The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.  
  • Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.  
  • Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.  
  • Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.  
  • Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow, no additional vow that Ned would never know about can be attributed to the conversation.  

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.  

Only seven against Ser Arthur by himself should lead us to the conclusion that they were seven dead men.  Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.  

 

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targaryen dynasty.  The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety.  Arthur is confident in the outcome, given that Barristan slew twelve battle tested men.  Separately GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Barristan and Arthur are a close match, with Dawn in hand Arthur is superior.  

 

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later.  If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men.  These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect.  As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.  


Edited by MtnLion, 28 March 2014 - 08:46 AM.


#15 Ygrain

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:41 PM

I can't find the source but apparently, he asked the guys making the show "Who are Jon Snow's parents?" and based on their answer decided he could work with them. 

 

That story really made me nervous about the whole thing.

 

Like a said, I'm a R+L=J n00b. You guys are ultra-sophisticaled and will probably just chuckle and provide a link for everything I say.  :dunce:

 

I'm here to learn!  :bowdown:

The ultrasophistication goes just above, but other than that, welcome on the boards! Don't be shy and ask away :-)

 

And indeed, the showmakers were asked, gave a "shocking" answer and got it right.



#16 Julia Martell

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:52 PM

I do have a question: What's the consensus about the roles of Ashara Dayne and Wylla?



#17 FrozenFire3

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:57 PM

I can't find the source but apparently, he asked the guys making the show "Who are Jon Snow's parents?" and based on their answer decided he could work with them. 

 

That story really made me nervous about the whole thing.

 

Like a said, I'm a R+L=J n00b. You guys are ultra-sophisticaled and will probably just chuckle and provide a link for everything I say.  :dunce:

 

I'm here to learn!  :bowdown:

 

As Ygrain said, we are here to help you with any doubt and/or curiosity you have about the theory. No need to feel :dunce: , promise us LOL

 

On a a side note, theguyfromtheVale mentioned at the end of v.75 some interesting bit about episode 1, blue roses and flowers meanings. Here is the full report:

Spoiler

 

Source



#18 Ygrain

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 02:03 PM

I do have a question: What's the consensus about the roles of Ashara Dayne and Wylla?

Wylla was most probably that other person except Howland Reed who found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body, and was Jon's wetnurse. Ashara is the hottest candidate for revealing the location of ToJ to Ned, though this is by no means certain. 



#19 Red.Queen

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 02:06 PM

I do have a question: What's the consensus about the roles of Ashara Dayne and Wylla?

As for Wylla, the general belief seems to be that she was at the tower helping Lyanna give birth and then she accompanied Ned to Starfall, where they came up with the cover story. Remember, Ned says that "they" found him holding Lyanna's body, "they" being Howland Reed and someone else. Given what we know about Wylla being Jon's wetnurse and her connection to Starfall, it's very reasonable to assume that she might have been that someone else. If she's alive, she's one of the few people who know the whole truth.

As for Ashara, the opinions aren't as consensual. Some say that Ashara was in on it and that, in fact, the KG knew about what happened at the Trident and King's Landing from her. It makes sense: Starfall is nearby and her brother is one of the KG. Some people also say that she told Ned where to find Lyanna and that was how he found out where she was. Whether she's dead or alive, that's another matter. There is this theory, which sounds crazy at first, but actually makes sense when you read it.


Edited by Red.Queen, 21 March 2014 - 02:07 PM.


#20 Julia Martell

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 02:14 PM

Okay.

 

Putting aside H+A=M&J for now, why would she kill herself?