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R+L=J v.93


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#1 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:18 PM

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
 For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option. 

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
 Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon careWho cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

 

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

 

Spoiler



#2 Chebyshov

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:21 PM

When we last left off...
 

<snip>
-----It is a lose lose with Lyanna kindnapped/eloped.  
 
 Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna,
--Ned  never thinks ill of Rhaegar.--Thinks he would not frequent brothels.
 
Lyanna's disappearing led to Brandon's and Rickard's deaths.
--Ned never thinks ill of Lyanna.--Buried her next to Brandon and Rickard.


Unless Ned doesn't blame Lyanna because Aerys was insane and his reaction was hardly a proportionate response.



#3 J. Stargaryen

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:26 PM

I already reported v.92 for length, but I'm not sure when that one will be locked and this one pinned. I hope it doesn't cause any confusion, but I posted this one prior to v.92 being locked since I'm going to be gone for a little while.



#4 BearQueen87

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:32 PM

When we last left off...
 


Unless Ned doesn't blame Lyanna because Aerys was insane and his reaction was hardly a proportionate response.

 

I don't think Ned blames Lyanna for much--at least it never appears that way. Though, Lyanna dying in Ned's arms probably had a serious profound affect on the situation. But Alia and I had an interesting conversation 1 or 2 threads ago about how Ned simultaneously loves and resents Brandon. 



#5 Jon_Samwell_Snow

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:53 PM

93 threads.  B) 

It was a love and hate relationship between Brandon and Ned. Brandon was the oldest Stark brother and Ned being the middle brother. Brandon inherits everything. Ned had to wait until something happened to Brandon. Benjen got nothing due being the little brother. Besides the wall. 

 

After Brandon's death, Ned gets the land and Catelyn. She was promised to Brandon for marriage. Catelyn grew to love Ned through out the years. She gave him five trueborn children. 



#6 BearQueen87

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:56 PM

93 threads.  B) 

It was a love and hate relationship between Brandon and Ned. Brandon was the oldest Stark brother and Ned being the middle brother. Brandon inherits everything. Ned had to wait until something happened to Brandon. Benjen got nothing due being the little brother. Besides the wall. 

 

 

 

I don't think Ned ever wanted to be the heir, though. I think he was perfectly content being the second son. Suddenly the life that was given to his brother was forced on him and he stepped up and did his duty, but it's never what he wanted. So he wasn't waiting for Brandon to die or mess up or anything.



#7 BastardlyRock

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:01 PM

 

I don't think Ned ever wanted to be the heir, though. I think he was perfectly content being the second son. Suddenly the life that was given to his brother was forced on him and he stepped up and did his duty, but it's never what he wanted. So he wasn't waiting for Brandon to die or mess up or anything.

Exactly. There's a great quote by Ned pretty much confirming all of this in Cat II, aGoT, if I had my copy on me I'd throw it in here, but alas...



#8 BearQueen87

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:04 PM

Exactly. There's a great quote by Ned pretty much confirming all of this in Cat II, aGoT, if I had my copy on me I'd throw it in here, but alas...

 

 

"..And I was only 12 when I was promised to your brother Brandon."

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."


Edited by BearQueen87, 31 July 2014 - 01:05 PM.


#9 Jon_Samwell_Snow

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:06 PM

 

I don't think Ned ever wanted to be the heir, though. I think he was perfectly content being the second son. Suddenly the life that was given to his brother was forced on him and he stepped up and did his duty, but it's never what he wanted. So he wasn't waiting for Brandon to die or mess up or anything.

He was probably there eating his Coco Puffs and was happy he was second born. I wonder if Brandon would have lived. It would have been different story. 



#10 BastardlyRock

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:10 PM

It does make me wonder about ol' Benjen, if he ever longed for another life. He seemed happy enough at the Wall, and there was no question he was a fine ranger, but I still wonder. I love his line to Jon about how his (Jon's) father will always have a place in his heart, but that the NW were his brothers now. Makes me so emotional every time I read it :crying:



#11 BearQueen87

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:14 PM

It does make me wonder about ol' Benjen, if he ever longed for another life. He seemed happy enough at the Wall, and there was no question he was a fine ranger, but I still wonder. I love his line to Jon about how his (Jon's) father will always have a place in his heart, but that the NW were his brothers now. Makes me so emotional every time I read it :crying:

 

I think Ben took the black for a few reasons. He is the youngest son so finding glory and honor was a bit harder. He probably would have become a knight and had a small holdfast and married to a northern lady, but he would never be Lord of WF (unless Ned died without sons). But I also think that Ben took to the Wall to hide his involvement with Lyanna/Rhaegar. Secret messenger, maybe?



#12 BastardlyRock

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:25 PM

 I also think that Ben took to the Wall to hide his involvement with Lyanna/Rhaegar. Secret messenger, maybe?

Yep, I subscribe to this idea as well.... as long as his "involvement" doesn't involve paternity as in another popular topic here :lmao:



#13 UnmaskedLurker

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:08 PM

 

HA! No way!

Other than joining NW, what other evidence do we have that Ben was a go-between or otherwise part of the plans between Rhaegar and Lyanna?



#14 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:21 PM

 

I think Ben took the black for a few reasons. He is the youngest son so finding glory and honor was a bit harder. He probably would have become a knight and had a small holdfast and married to a northern lady, but he would never be Lord of WF (unless Ned died without sons). But I also think that Ben took to the Wall to hide his involvement with Lyanna/Rhaegar. Secret messenger, maybe?

I'd never thought of this, but it could make sense.  Do we know where Brandon was during the rebellion?  Do we know his age in relation to Ned or Lyanna? 



#15 BearQueen87

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:35 PM

Other than joining NW, what other evidence do we have that Ben was a go-between or otherwise part of the plans between Rhaegar and Lyanna?

 

 

I'd never thought of this, but it could make sense.  Do we know where Brandon was during the rebellion?  Do we know his age in relation to Ned or Lyanna? 

 

I don't think we have a ton of evidence outside of joining the NW and the fact that there's silence where Ben is concerned...his thoughts on Lya and he seems very friendly toward Jon. In Bran's vision in the tree, he does see Lyanna and Ben playing, Ben obviously teased her about Rhaegar, all of which might be nothing except to say that they were close. Brandon and Lyanna were close as well, but Lya also knew Brandon's rash nature. Ned is too honorable for Lyanna to talk to about what was going on with Rhaegar.

 

I believe Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion. And his age....according to the wiki (so take with salt)

Ben was born 267

Lyanna was born 266

Ned was born 262/263


Edited by BearQueen87, 31 July 2014 - 06:26 PM.


#16 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:42 PM

And somewhere in thread v.92, someone was trying to point out that there was nothing suggesting that Aerys did not trust Rhaegar (i.e., that he could have trusted him).  It's stated pretty clearly in the books that he did not, isn't it?  I know it's in there somewhere, about the tourney ay Harrenhal, and Aerys not trusting Rhaegar and leaving the Red Keep because of that.  It seemed to me that he was thinking of the tourney an Harrenhal as something akin to the tourney/wedding at Whitewalls. . .A guise to allow supporters of Rhaegar to gather in one place.

 

200 witless opinions, yea!

 

:cheers:



#17 BearQueen87

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:47 PM

And somewhere in thread v.92, someone was trying to point out that there was nothing suggesting that Aerys did not trust Rhaegar (i.e., that he could have trusted him).  It's stated pretty clearly in the books that he did not, isn't it?  I know it's in there somewhere, about the tourney ay Harrenhal, and Aerys not trusting Rhaegar and leaving the Red Keep because of that.  It seemed to me that he was thinking of the tourney an Harrenhal as something akin to the tourney/wedding at Whitewalls. . .A guise to allow supporters of Rhaegar to gather in one place.

 

200 witless opinions, yea!

 

:cheers:

 

I think Aerys was suspicious of his son but he also recalls Rhaegar and asks him to lead the army to the Trident to put down the rebellion. So even if Varys was whispering (which the Spider was), Aerys must have still trusted his son enough to put down Robert.



#18 UnmaskedLurker

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 02:56 PM

 

I think Aerys was suspicious of his son but he also recalls Rhaegar and asks him to lead the army to the Trident to put down the rebellion. So even if Varys was whispering (which the Spider was), Aerys must have still trusted his son enough to put down Robert.

Even if Aerys did not trust Rhaegar entirely--it does not appear as though there are any other people who Aerys trusts more. Aerys trusted no one.



#19 PrettyPig

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 03:15 PM

"Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens."

 

 

 

Random aside:   I love this quote as it is a giveaway to Southron ambitions.   How was Brandon supposed to be a Hand and have his Stark/Tully daughters become queens without either 1) a solid alliance with a non-Targaryen monarchy, or 2) a solid future alliance plan with a non-Aerys  monarchy?



#20 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 06:22 PM

 

I think Aerys was suspicious of his son but he also recalls Rhaegar and asks him to lead the army to the Trident to put down the rebellion. So even if Varys was whispering (which the Spider was), Aerys must have still trusted his son enough to put down Robert.

I agree to an extent, as in he trusted he would not fail to fight for house Targaryen, but he defiantly had suspicions about Rhaegar's ambitions.  He was probably wrong, but. . .

And I screwed up on my previous post, I meant Benjen, not Brandon. :dunce:   So to clarify I'll re-post the question.

 

Do we know where Benjen (not Brandon) was during the rebellion?  Do we know his age in relation to Ned or Lyanna?  Could he have been w/Lyanna when she was taken-fled w/Rhaegar??

 

Also, (assuming R+L=J is true) does anyone think that there might have been others that know or knew Lyanna's secret (minus those that were actually at the ToJ)?  For instance Qhorin Halfhand.  When Jon went over to the wildlings, was it simply that Qhorin thought Jon would be accepted by them because he's a green boy with no reputation preceding him, or was there some other purpose for him to want to spare Jon's life?  Could Benjen have shared some 'knowledge' with the Halfhand? 

 

Barbrey Dustin is another character that seems to know something we don't, and, I think, an indicator that somebody talked down the line somewhere. 


Edited by Arlan of Pennytree, 31 July 2014 - 06:44 PM.