Could the Dothraki take all of Westeros with 300000 men?

[kimim]

The chinese were advanced but their armies were pathetic. And like I mentioned earlier they did not have the system of castles and fortifications the Europeans had.

I do like the mongolians battle tactics and admire their style of warfare, but taking europe would not be the walk in the park some would have you believe. It would be a hard wrought fight, and I don't know if they would have succeeded.

I'm just curious, as I really and truly know nothing about arms, armament. Where is Westeros in history? Are they the 13th century? The 15th? How about archery? Fortifications? I really do not know.

EDIT: Thank you for the china info.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Ok a horse needs between 10 to 25 lbs of high quality fodder per day (not just grass but legumes, seed, etc...) grass takes about 10 to 30 days to grow back depending on the grass. So if we take in to account proper management (unlikely) and only one horse per dothraki (also unlikely) they will need an area of about 1800 km2!

Now how far can horses go to forage now?

Take only a third of that away, and horses start to weaken, and can't go that far to pasture. The logistics just don't work out. Not without outside supply chains.

hmm lets see mongols could cover 40-60 miles per day sometimes more , 640 acres per square mile

modern farms can get 3-8 tons per acre per cutting of grass so gods knows what medieval farms and grassland produced

[Universal Sword Donor]

hmm lets see mongols could cover 40-60 miles per day sometimes more , 640 acres per square mile

modern farms can get 3-8 tons per acre per cutting of grass so gods knows what medieval farms and grassland produced

Data for crop yields for wheat in England from 1250-1650 suggest that in the late Middle Ages on average an acre of arable would produce 11-13 bushels of wheat or about 30 bushels of barley (a less desirable grain to eat, but used in the making of ale). The 63,200 quarters collected by order of Edward I in 1296 represents the total yield of approximately 42,000 acres of land. Similarly, 5,800 acres of land were needed to supply the wheat and barley for the 4,000 men in Edward III’s fleet during a four month period in the 1330s.

http://usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh381/Medieval%20Logistics.htm

Also bear in mind that only about 2/3 of the arable land is going to be farmed at a time.

[Lord Reaver]

That they ruled China for a century is not a myth. That they took a good portion of Anatolia, is not a myth. Their attacks upon Central-Eastern Europe are not myths. They were not endlessly successful; they could be defeated. They were, however, fucking scary.

I'm not saying they're some weird ubermensh. I'm saying that if, by some miracle, they land in those numbers in Westeros, there'd be a lot of dead people.

The extent of success of their attacks upon Central-Europe is largely myth. They had a raid, which was successful, and withdrew. Then they came back some time later and were effectively repulsed.

They did not even penetrate beyond the young, disorganized countries of eastern-europe. To say they would have stood any chance against the much more robust, both in terms of military and politics, central and western European powers is frankly, ludicrous.

Lastly, what is supposedly landing in Westeros isn't Mongols. It's some weird mix of Huns/Apache/Mongols, with none of the tactical sophistication or armaments of the Mongols.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Ravens!

An army of that size will be easy to track, and ravens would be sent to the castles in the areas they are heading, so they can prepare.

The ravens are useful but require scouts to keep track of where they are headed exactly , bear in mind momgol forces covered about 40-60 miles a day if they are close then warning me is gonna do nothing much , if im far enough away I can prepare yes but that assumes between castles they keep to the same direction from last sighting.

[Lord Reaver]

I'm just curious, as I really and truly know nothing about arms, armament. Where is Westeros in history? Are they the 13th century? The 15th? How about archery? Fortifications? I really do not know.

Westeros is a bit of a hodge-podge, really, as is most Fantasy.

A simplistic way to put it is that they are somewhere around the end of the 14th century/beginning of the 15th, given that they have articulated plate and pike militias. Of course, they still use shields with that, which is completely bonkers, and there are no independent mercenary companies, such as the Landsknechts.

Then again, other areas are way behind, such as gunpowder, which was well known although not yet developed into reliable personal firearms in 14-15th century Europe.

[Lion Of The Night]

hmm lets see mongols could cover 40-60 miles per day sometimes more , 640 acres per square mile

modern farms can get 3-8 tons per acre per cutting of grass so gods knows what medieval farms and grassland produced

Modern farms produce far far more, so you have to scale back.

[Universal Sword Donor]

The ravens are useful but require scouts to keep track of where they are headed exactly , bear in mind momgol forces covered about 40-60 miles a day if they are close then warning me is gonna do nothing much , if im far enough away I can prepare yes but that assumes between castles they keep to the same direction from last sighting.

The Mongolians averaged 14 miles a day, grazing their horses, while they fought the Jin.

http://books.google.com/books?id=N2MMD0yfxyAC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=mongol+military+supply+logistics&source=bl&ots=puDUIw5r-b&sig=hMtc86Xj3m5eLuwd7lWL9AzxocM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8xEiVOu4J8SSyASQkoCgDA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Lion Of The Night]

Westeros is a bit of a hodge-podge, really, as is most Fantasy.

A simplistic way to put it is that they are somewhere around the end of the 14th century/beginning of the 15th, given that they have articulated plate and pike militias. Of course, they still use shields with that, which is completely bonkers, and there are no independent mercenary companies, such as the Landsknechts.

Then again, other areas are way behind, such as gunpowder, which was well known although not yet developed into reliable personal firearms in 14-15th century Europe.

To be fair there is professional mercenaries, but they are mostly in Essos. But yeah the level of tech is hard to pin in comparison to our world.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Data for crop yields for wheat in England from 1250-1650 suggest that in the late Middle Ages on average an acre of arable would produce 11-13 bushels of wheat or about 30 bushels of barley (a less desirable grain to eat, but used in the making of ale). The 63,200 quarters collected by order of Edward I in 1296 represents the total yield of approximately 42,000 acres of land. Similarly, 5,800 acres of land were needed to supply the wheat and barley for the 4,000 men in Edward III’s fleet during a four month period in the 1330s.

http://usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh381/Medieval%20Logistics.htm

Also bear in mind that only about 2/3 of the arable land is going to be farmed at a time.

cool

but it was the grass we were considering , how much grass

so assuming they land in an area and can travel like the mongols......thats roughly 40-60 miles in all directions to forage food and graze horses

[Universal Sword Donor]

cool

but it was the grass we were considering , how much grass

so assuming they land in an area and can travel like the mongols......thats roughly 40-60 miles in all directions to forage food and graze horses

Grass is much worse for horses than hay and straw, nutritionally. They need to eat a lot more of it, and no the Mongols didn't move 40-60 miles a day while grazing.

[Lord Reaver]

To be fair there is professional mercenaries, but they are mostly in Essos. But yeah the level of tech is hard to pin in comparison to our world.

Don't get me started on Essos. The tech level there spans about a milennia.

[Lion Of The Night]

The ravens are useful but require scouts to keep track of where they are headed exactly , bear in mind momgol forces covered about 40-60 miles a day if they are close then warning me is gonna do nothing much , if im far enough away I can prepare yes but that assumes between castles they keep to the same direction from last sighting.

A Roman legion of 6000 to 10000 soldiers was almost 15 km long! The Dothraki would be way longer, even if they spread out on the march.

The cloud of dust they would raise would be enough to gather their position...

You can't hide an army that size.... Period. The people would know they are coming.

[Lion Of The Night]

cool

but it was the grass we were considering , how much grass

so assuming they land in an area and can travel like the mongols......thats roughly 40-60 miles in all directions to forage food and graze horses

They would be grazing for at least 12 hours per day, to get enough Nutrition from grass and still they would weaken. HORSES NEED MORE THAN GRASS!

Food them soley on grass and they will not be fit for fighting.

[hodorisfaclessman]

The Mongolians averaged 14 miles a day, grazing their horses, while they fought the Jin.

http://books.google.com/books?id=N2MMD0yfxyAC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=mongol+military+supply+logistics&source=bl&ots=puDUIw5r-b&sig=hMtc86Xj3m5eLuwd7lWL9AzxocM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8xEiVOu4J8SSyASQkoCgDA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

and 100 per day agaisnt the hungarians

http://historum.com/war-military-history/50719-how-many-miles-could-medieval-army-move-day.html

40-60 considered the adverage

[hodorisfaclessman]

A Roman legion of 6000 to 10000 soldiers was almost 15 km long! The Dothraki would be way longer, even if they spread out on the march.

The cloud of dust they would raise would be enough to gather their position...

You can't hide an army that size.... Period. The people would know they are coming.

assuming again they keep to this massive 300k number and stay in one unwieldy big clump of men

Dust is raised marching over dirt and theres a big difference in the speed of the legions and a horsed force

In one large group agreed

[Universal Sword Donor]

and 100 per day agaisnt the hungarians

http://historum.com/war-military-history/50719-how-many-miles-could-medieval-army-move-day.html

40-60 considered the adverage

the 100 miles a day isn't cited.

40-60 doesn't take into account the grazing.

And apparently for long distance deployments, they averaged about 16 miles a day

Link

The calculations for the amount of food needed just kind of explains how fruitless it would be for the Dothraki. 10K combatants, 40K non combatants, 600K horses killed 8 square miles of grassland. Too lazy to do the math, but the 300K Dothraki and their horses would eat through a kingdom very quickly.

Link

[ChillyPolly]

No. Because Sweetrobin will kick their butts. Go Sweetrobin!

[Lopsang]

I personally believe they could but they would first obviously require ships, which they receive from Bravos in return the Dothraki promise them all the gold in the Westerlands and Dragonstone.

Now with 300000 men Lets say 125000 horse which are provided by Rich men in Essos all who are promised land in return. They cross the narrow sea and begin raiding all of southern Westeros the Lords hide in there castles while the Dothraki raid and pillage all the small folk and take all the crops.

The Dothraki dont have siège weapons ..... But as Ghengis Khan has proved starvation is an easy way to destroy your ennemies patience is all that is required, all the Dothraki have to do is deploy there 300000 men all across southern Westeros as fast as possible and prevent any lord from raising a big enough army to stop the Dothrakis invasion. 10 years later all is conquered besides the Vale and the North but they would use ships to attack both at a later date.

Ghengis Khan used wily tactics to besiege people, and there's no reason the Dothraki couldn't use them either. Ghengis didn't always starve out castles; he used psychological warfare as well. He would raid and pillage the hinterlands of the unfortunate besieged castle/town and round up the survivors. he'd then present them to the city en masse, pushing them through the town gates, wher they would then spread their despair and tales of Mongol discord, lowering the morale of the garrison and sharply increasing the strain experienced on the castle's food and water supply. Very interesting stuff. He also never had siege weapons per se, but he had army engineers come with him on his campaigns and they could use local resources to quickly build rudimentary siege weapons, capture the town, and then dismantle them. No reason the Dothraki couldn't do that either.

[Lion Of The Night]

Ghengis Khan used wily tactics to besiege people, and there's no reason the Dothraki couldn't use them either. Ghengis didn't always starve out castles; he used psychological warfare as well. He would raid and pillage the hinterlands of the unfortunate besieged castle/town and round up the survivors. he'd then present them to the city en masse, pushing them through the town gates, wher they would then spread their despair and tales of Mongol discord, lowering the morale of the garrison and sharply increasing the strain experienced on the castle's food and water supply. Very interesting stuff. He also never had siege weapons per se, but he had army engineers come with him on his campaigns and they could use local resources to quickly build rudimentary siege weapons, capture the town, and then dismantle them. No reason the Dothraki couldn't do that either.

But the Dothraki are not he mongols, they do not have the siege capabilities the mongols had. Their strength is in attacks on the open field. They would be very hard pressed to take a westerosi castle.