How different would things have gone if the Vale had declared for Robb?

[James Steller]

If the Lords Declarant alone could muster twenty thousand soldiers, I imagine the whole Vale's support would be welcomed by Robb. Especially if such worthy men as Royce led them and joined his side. But would it have changed anything in Robb's campaign? Would it have averted Robb's doom or would he have dragged the Vale down with him?

[Tyrus Martell]

Who knows truly?

I'd assume Tywin Lannister would have changed his battle plans accordingly and perhaps kept Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch and Vargo Hoat's reavers closer to act as a strong vanguard rather than split as foraging parties. He'd probably have sought a way to keep the Vale out of the game anyway he can, and knowing Tywin he'd use any card he had in his hand - perhaps he would have accelerated Petyr Baelish's ambitions to grasp the Vale from the inside sooner.

[Fat Mac]

Before the Tyrells join the Lannisters- They'd have a pretty good chance

After the Tyrells join the Lannisters- Robb would still lose, eventually, in a long, bloody, drawn out conflict

[Makrell]

If it had happened soon, they wouldve defeated tywin at the green fork, or soon afterwards.

If this happened when catelyn left the eyrie and she called banenrs and crossed the mountains with army tywin and jaime proably would both siege rivverrun, as they needed the men to win againist both north and vale.

If they arrived after green fork robb would proably strike harrenhal and not west, and stafford would make his host and join tywin, robb might lose then, unless he and royce took harrenhal first.

[Kick13]

I believe if the Vale joined the Tyrells would probably stay out of the conflict because they wouldn't want to waste that many men

[Lharys]

It wasn't man power that doomed Robb, it was his marriage to Jeyne Westerling mostly as well as "The King in the North" BS. Maybe they don't need the Freys if the Vale joins them so Edmure never has to marry and there's no Red Wedding. But Walder Frey would still have been slighted so who knows what he does? Robb could've possibly declared for Renly too and maybe the Tyrells fight for him after Renly's death. A lot of moving parts lead to Robb's demise.

[LordQorgyle]

Just because Royce would be most likely join the North, that doesn't mean all the other families in the Vale would do the same, i doubt that the Corbrays and Graftons wouldn't do that

[Makrell]

Good points, and i agree if the vale joined robb he would never have been declared king in the north. Maybe in the north, but the vale and riverlands would not shout his name in unison. Probably the would all wouldve supported renly then stannis.

[shmewdog]

I get why the Starks wanted Lannister blood, but they really shouldn't have declared independence from the Kingdom unless they were ready to fight a war of attrition. The best thing to do would garrison a few thousand men at Moat Cailin, let the southrons throw away thousands of men trying to take it, then sit behind all that and do the King in the North thing. Make the south come to YOU.

[Guard of the Rainking]

I get why the Starks wanted Lannister blood, but they really shouldn't have declared independence from the Kingdom unless they were ready to fight a war of attrition. The best thing to do would garrison a few thousand men at Moat Cailin, let the southrons throw away thousands of men trying to take it, then sit behind all that and do the King in the North thing. Make the south come to YOU.

The only problem is that Robb would have to leave the Riverlands defenseless.

[Lharys]

I get why the Starks wanted Lannister blood, but they really shouldn't have declared independence from the Kingdom unless they were ready to fight a war of attrition. The best thing to do would garrison a few thousand men at Moat Cailin, let the southrons throw away thousands of men trying to take it, then sit behind all that and do the King in the North thing. Make the south come to YOU.

The King in the North thing was folly especially considering he was in the south at the time. He should have just declared for Stannis or Renly (Stannis probably since that was what his father would have done) and gone from there.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

I get why the Starks wanted Lannister blood, but they really shouldn't have declared independence from the Kingdom unless they were ready to fight a war of attrition. The best thing to do would garrison a few thousand men at Moat Cailin, let the southrons throw away thousands of men trying to take it, then sit behind all that and do the King in the North thing. Make the south come to YOU.

Robb gathered his banners and rode south before Ned was executed, hoping to save him and before his men made him King in the North.

[Dimples]

The King in the North thing was folly especially considering he was in the south at the time. He should have just declared for Stannis or Renly (Stannis probably since that was what his father would have done) and gone from there.

It wasn't as if he could have just said, "Guys, let's rethink this," after the Greatjon's schpiel.

[Lharys]

It wasn't as if he could have just said, "Guys, let's rethink this," after the Greatjon's schpiel.

He was the Lord of Winterfell. He could have been like "whoa whoa whoa reel it in there GJ. This is a big decision, let's give it more thought."

[Gibzit]

same thing, except more deaths at the twins, robb would insult the vale lords one way or another just like he did with the north and riverlords and before you know it, house hardyng helps at the red wedding

[Lion Of The Night]

It wasn't as if he could have just said, "Guys, let's rethink this," after the Greatjon's schpiel.

Exactly, he had no control of that. That said even if he did decide to hold up in the north, it would leave his allies alone to fend for themselves. The moment he was declaired KITN (lol just realized that says kitten) he had to fight the south to their knees. To do that the key was keeping the Freys...

The soldiers of the Vale would have been decisive in the war, potentially opening up another front. The Tyrells may still have entered, but the northern forces might have had enough momentum by then to keep going.

The question is what would Stannis do? We know he's the prickly type, but would he join a coalition ending in Robb ruling in he north and Stannis in the south?

[Poppa Chase]

Let's say Lysa slipped and hit her head after she sent that letter to Cat. She wakes up oblivious to everything.

Catelyn shows up with the little Lannister. Lysa instead of acting an irregular bitch, decides to hold on to Tyrion without trial and champions.

Tywin sends his men in the RiverLands. Jaime attacks Ned. Jaime sieges up on riverrun. Robb musters and marches. Makes his deal with Walder. Arrives in time for the whispering wood.

Catelyn and Lysa send the Vale men to fight for Eddard. They rendezvous with Rooses men and bring the hammer down on Tywin. His forces are routed through the RiverLands and back to the rock. Where Tywin and Stafford build up another Army. But now both of his sons are captured. So he waits.

Robb relieves Riverrun and Harrenhall, where he meets up with Roose and Yohn. They leave token forces at RR and HH but their strength head right into KL and puts the siege to it. Using ships from the vale to do so from sea as well. Eddard will have been killed by this point but Sansa is alive. So they try to hold them off by threatening to kill her. Even though Rodrik said he would have to siege WF, even if his daughters life would be lost, but Robb is King.

Meanwhile, Renly and stannis would have had their debates and Renly would meet his same end. Though LF arriving here might not have happened if he would have to travel through occupied wolf territory, so I don't think he would have gotten to them. At this point, the tyrells hate stannis. They don't particularly have a care in the wolf or the lion, so I think they would try and make a marriage pact for Marg with Robb. Everyone of his people who isn't a Frey would tell him to do so, because he would be unstoppable. He doesn't really need the Frey alliance anymore.

So their combined force would have sacked KL meaning Sansas death. And stannis wouldn't have been able to perform his siege, due to overwhelming forces occupying the city.

Balon may have still rebelled but Theon would have never been sent. So WF is never taken, and the redwynes would Bering the naval hammer down upon them.

The end result is the king and his council being killed. The Wolf marries the Flower, and they at this point decide it's necessary to sit the throne and rebuild this war ravaged continent.

Tywin is pardoned, but Jaime is forced to take he black. Cersei is dead. And tyrion is brought to KL to keep the Lannisters from open rebellion.

That's my opinion on the matter. The Vale changes everything.

[Lion Of The Night]

Let's say Lysa slipped and hit her head after she sent that letter to Cat. She wakes up oblivious to everything.

Catelyn shows up with the little Lannister. Lysa instead of acting an irregular bitch, decides to hold on to Tyrion without trial and champions.

Tywin sends his men in the RiverLands. Jaime attacks Ned. Jaime sieges up on riverrun. Robb musters and marches. Makes his deal with Walder. Arrives in time for the whispering wood.

Catelyn and Lysa send the Vale men to fight for Eddard. They rendezvous with Rooses men and bring the hammer down on Tywin. His forces are routed through the RiverLands and back to the rock. Where Tywin and Stafford build up another Army. But now both of his sons are captured. So he waits.

Robb relieves Riverrun and Harrenhall, where he meets up with Roose and Yohn. They leave token forces at RR and HH but their strength head right into KL and puts the siege to it. Using ships from the vale to do so from sea as well. Eddard will have been killed by this point but Sansa is alive. So they try to hold them off by threatening to kill her. Even though Rodrik said he would have to siege WF, even if his daughters life would be lost, but Robb is King.

Meanwhile, Renly and stannis would have had their debates and Renly would meet his same end. Though LF arriving here might not have happened if he would have to travel through occupied wolf territory, so I don't think he would have gotten to them. At this point, the tyrells hate stannis. They don't particularly have a care in the wolf or the lion, so I think they would try and make a marriage pact for Marg with Robb. Everyone of his people who isn't a Frey would tell him to do so, because he would be unstoppable. He doesn't really need the Frey alliance anymore.

So their combined force would have sacked KL meaning Sansas death. And stannis wouldn't have been able to perform his siege, due to overwhelming forces occupying the city.

Balon may have still rebelled but Theon would have never been sent. So WF is never taken, and the redwynes would Bering the naval hammer down upon them.

The end result is the king and his council being killed. The Wolf marries the Flower, and they at this point decide it's necessary to sit the throne and rebuild this war ravaged continent.

Tywin is pardoned, but Jaime is forced to take he black. Cersei is dead. And tyrion is brought to KL to keep the Lannisters from open rebellion.

That's my opinion on the matter. The Vale changes everything.

Good scenario... Though I would think Tyrion would be killed especially if Tommen was captured.

[James Steller]

Let's say Lysa slipped and hit her head after she sent that letter to Cat. She wakes up oblivious to everything.

Catelyn shows up with the little Lannister. Lysa instead of acting an irregular bitch, decides to hold on to Tyrion without trial and champions.

Tywin sends his men in the RiverLands. Jaime attacks Ned. Jaime sieges up on riverrun. Robb musters and marches. Makes his deal with Walder. Arrives in time for the whispering wood.

Catelyn and Lysa send the Vale men to fight for Eddard. They rendezvous with Rooses men and bring the hammer down on Tywin. His forces are routed through the RiverLands and back to the rock. Where Tywin and Stafford build up another Army. But now both of his sons are captured. So he waits.

Robb relieves Riverrun and Harrenhall, where he meets up with Roose and Yohn. They leave token forces at RR and HH but their strength head right into KL and puts the siege to it. Using ships from the vale to do so from sea as well. Eddard will have been killed by this point but Sansa is alive. So they try to hold them off by threatening to kill her. Even though Rodrik said he would have to siege WF, even if his daughters life would be lost, but Robb is King.

Meanwhile, Renly and stannis would have had their debates and Renly would meet his same end. Though LF arriving here might not have happened if he would have to travel through occupied wolf territory, so I don't think he would have gotten to them. At this point, the tyrells hate stannis. They don't particularly have a care in the wolf or the lion, so I think they would try and make a marriage pact for Marg with Robb. Everyone of his people who isn't a Frey would tell him to do so, because he would be unstoppable. He doesn't really need the Frey alliance anymore.

So their combined force would have sacked KL meaning Sansas death. And stannis wouldn't have been able to perform his siege, due to overwhelming forces occupying the city.

Balon may have still rebelled but Theon would have never been sent. So WF is never taken, and the redwynes would Bering the naval hammer down upon them.

The end result is the king and his council being killed. The Wolf marries the Flower, and they at this point decide it's necessary to sit the throne and rebuild this war ravaged continent.

Tywin is pardoned, but Jaime is forced to take he black. Cersei is dead. And tyrion is brought to KL to keep the Lannisters from open rebellion.

That's my opinion on the matter. The Vale changes everything.

That's a great scenario, and very well thought out. The only things that I find unaccounted for are the issues of Margaery and Stannis. In the case of Marge, Robb might not prove as easy to break his oaths when he has a clear head. He thought he'd lost his brothers and was coping with grief when he slept with Jeyne. Since Bran and Rickon would be alive and well, Robb might decline to betray his honour. This is the man who executed a Karstark out of duty. So the Tyrells would either stay neutral or else match Margaery with someone else powerful, like Edmure, Or Robert Arryn. And even if Robb does decide Margaery is more important, that means the Freys have a huge grievance against Robb. So that would prompt them to turn to Tywin and somehow free Jaime and Tyrion from their respective prisons.

The second unaccounted issue is Stannis. He wouldn't just sit back and do nothing now that he has the Stormlands backing him. But knowing Robb he might speak with Stannis and negotiate terms where they give him the Iron Throne as the surviving Baratheon. Stannis would hopefully realize he needs those men so he pardons them for helping him defeat the pretenders, and then Melisandre has him send a huge host to the Wall instead of just 1500 cavalry.

[Poppa Chase]

Good scenario... Though I would think Tyrion would be killed especially if Tommen was captured.

Perhaps, though I'm under the assumption that Cersei had herself and kids killed during the sack, or they were killed by the people who sacked their specific area. Where as they still have Tyrion in custody. Thanks for the input by the way.