Sansa and Sandor's story arc parallel.

[Robb_Warged]

If Sandor is alive I really want him and Sansa to be reunited in TWOW!!!!

[Le Cygne]

If Sandor is alive I really want him and Sansa to be reunited in TWOW!!!!

I don't think you have anything to worry about there. GRRM has really gone all out on this one. There will be more than a reuinion. The sexual and marriage foreshadowing is all over the place, there's more and more clearly evident upon a reread. That three times thing his editor mentioned, "the first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else."

Here's that link:

http://universe.suvudu.com/q-and-a/anne-groell

[Robb_Warged]

I don't think you have anything to worry about there. GRRM has really gone all out on this one. There will be more than a reuinion. The sexual and marriage foreshadowing is all over the place, there's more and more clearly evident upon a reread. That three times thing his editor mentioned, "the first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else."

I can't ask for much else if this can at least happen in the story :)

Sandor would never let any harm come to Sansa. Sansa has helped us see some of the good in Sandor. Sandor has been a source of protection as she has come to know that life isn't always the fairytale she may have wanted it to be when the series began

[Le Cygne]

I can't ask for much else if this can at least happen in the story :)

I think he must really like this story, because he's got to have spent a ton of time writing it, there's just so much depth to the writing.

[Seabright]

Great Post.

I have been carrying the theory that several characters in the book are tropes for the seven aspects fo the fath, and Sansa is definetly the Maiden. Echoing what SylvanLore posted.

She is a virgin and she has never killed anyone. She is pure and unspoiled, in every sense of the words, and that is combined with her sweet innocence and gentle kindness. She is the Maiden in mortal form, and the best of a highborn lady - proper, adoring and seemingly faint. This brings out the true nature of the people around her. They see a maiden from the ballads and either hates her or loves her for that - they either want to break her or protect her. Tyrion always stood up for her, and Sandor - despite his coarseness and harsh words - starts to act more of a true knight than he ever had before.The ballads do not sing about people like them, but Sansa gives them a breeze of it.

With regards to Sansa & the Hound story line, if Sansa is the Maiden then the Hound could becomes a Galladon of Morne Character.

"Legend says that Galladon of Morne's valor was so great the Maiden fell in love with him. She gave him an enchanted sword, the Just Maid, to demonstrate her love for him."

I can see Sansa & the Hound reuniting. Sansa giving the Hound a sword (maybe she gets Oathkeeper off of Brienne, or Lady Folorn from Corbray)

According to the legend, Galladon only unsheathed the sword three times, not once against a mortal man, for the fight would have been unfair.

This could foreshadow the Hound fighting three times against Non-Mortal opponents. (Uncat, Ungregor & Un-other prehaps(sorry for the pun))

I do, like many others feel the Hound still has a final reconing with his brother (Robert Strong) to come.

[Robb_Warged]

What I'm wondering is, we are told there will be no new POVs. What POV could Sandor be with that could show us how he gets to be with Sansa again? Maybe we'll miss that part of his story

[Le Cygne]

If she goes to him (a la Beauty going to the Beast) then her POV would be all that was needed. Of course, she has to know where to find him. :)

[Robb_Warged]

If she goes to him (a la Beauty going to the Beast) then her POV would be all that was needed. Of course, she has to know where to find him. :)

I would like this

[EatCrow]

Hello all this little post will be a little speculation about the story arcs of sansa stark and sandor clegane.

Note: this is assuming you have read all the books up to the time of this post and assuming that you are familiar with the "Gravedigger" theory.

I looked at the arcs and noticed some similarities between the two, and suspect that the two arcs may be driving towards a similar conclusion.

First, I would like to discuss Sansa. When we first meet Sansa in book one, she is a starry eyed romantic. She is infatuated with the songs she heard growing up. The songs that tell of handsome princes, gallent knights, and brave fools. And as we all know, she becomes more and more disillusioned as the books progress. Her prince turns out to be a jerk, his knights of the kings guard beat her, and her daring fool sold her off for gold. I think that this idealism and disillusionment is something we can all agree on.

Now let us discuss Sandor's story. Sandor, in my opinion, seems to have been much like Sansa at some point. Not at the onset of the books but sometime before. This is largely from the story he tells Sansa about how his face became so disfigured.

There are two things I would like to point out in this scene. First, we see that the toy Sandor was playing with was a knight. This may be a coincidence, but I think that, as a boy, he likely looked up to and aspired to be a knight.

Then Sansa's form of comfort. She claims that Gregor was not a "true knight." Sandor laughs at first, but then he repeats the statement in agreement. He does later argue that there are no true knights, but here he simply says that Gregor was not one. Maybe this is in part because some small fragment believes in "true knights." It would be reasonable. He spits on knights and calls them out for their hypocrisy time and again. But why is he so angry about it? While it certainly is possible that he just lumps all knights in with his brother, and it is fair to assume that he has seem some corruption in the past. I think that his rage more likely comes from a place of betrayal. I speculate that he once believed in the ideals of the knight and disdains the men around him who call themselves knights because they tarnish that ideal.

He certainly still clings to a knightly tenant or two. He defends Sir Loras Tyrell from his brother at the tourney of the hand of the king. Note that while he hates his brother, he fights only defensively against him. He isn't fighting to try and kill his brother here, even though his brother is looking at attempted murder. He seems to be fighting purely to protect Loras. He also regularly defends Sansa and even Arya Stark to a degree even when there doesn't seem to be any real profit in it.

With all of this in mind I think that part of him still may cling to the ideals that he once held. I think that much like Sansa he was an idealist who became disillusion after various events in his life. Thus he is the angry man that we meet at the start of the books.

Notice how he is constantly giving Sansa some pretty harsh advice, and he is often the main entety trying to destroy her romantic hopes. However, is he really trying to convince Sansa fairytales aren't real or is he simply fighting to keep himself convinced of that fact while staring down at a fair and kind damsel in distress.

So what do I think this holds for the future? Well, I am of the opinion that the story will take a circular pattern. I think that Sansa will find her way into a song somehow. Maybe it will be a sad one, but I think that Sansa's completed arc will go like this:

Loves the songs and wants to be in something like she hears about -> disillusionment and rejection of the songs and stories as hogwash -> becomes part of a song without realizing perhaps discovering that the songs only seem nice because you know how it ends or because it is simply a retelling of an event in an overly cheerful light

Some suggest that the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" is actually about her and the hound. I doubt this and suspect that Daenerys and Jorah are far more likely candidates. All the same I suspect that Sansa will get her wish and be immortalized in song. Whether this song will be a comedy or a tragedy...

Similarly, I think Sandor's story will come full circle as well. Maybe you might argue it already has. I for one believe in the "Gravedigger" theory and that Sandor will come back some how. Perhaps, he will come face to face with his fear of fire. I would love to see him kill or be killed by a dragon, but that's just a fantasy of mine. However, I am of the opinion that Sandor will somehow achieve becoming an embodiment of the "true knight." This, I suspect, will be the thing that actually kills him, but maybe not.

Overall, I am not arguing that Sandor and Sansa's stories are going to have conclusions dependent on each other, although the "unkiss" is a weird thing that is kind of oddly hanging in the air. I am simply trying to predict the story pattern that may unfold.

But who knows, maybe I am wrong and Sandor is just a big ole dead jerk, or maybe George R.R. Martin is putting the final touches on a bard's performance of "The Hound and the Little Bird."

What do you think? Will Sansa get her song? Will Sandor become a "true knight?"

[EatCrow]

If Sandor is the grave digger and finds out Sansa is in trouble he will definitely try to save her. I don't think he's forgiven himself for taking the song, the knife at her throat. " No one will ever hurt you again. Or I'll kill them." There's definitely unfinished business there. And the un kiss has a significance.

[EatCrow]

Sorry should not have added the long intro to my reply, new here.

[Julia H.]

Hello all this little post will be a little speculation about the story arcs of sansa stark and sandor clegane.

Note: this is assuming you have read all the books up to the time of this post and assuming that you are familiar with the "Gravedigger" theory.

I looked at the arcs and noticed some similarities between the two, and suspect that the two arcs may be driving towards a similar conclusion.

First, I would like to discuss Sansa. When we first meet Sansa in book one, she is a starry eyed romantic. She is infatuated with the songs she heard growing up. The songs that tell of handsome princes, gallent knights, and brave fools. And as we all know, she becomes more and more disillusioned as the books progress. Her prince turns out to be a jerk, his knights of the kings guard beat her, and her daring fool sold her off for gold. I think that this idealism and disillusionment is something we can all agree on.

Now let us discuss Sandor's story. Sandor, in my opinion, seems to have been much like Sansa at some point. Not at the onset of the books but sometime before. This is largely from the story he tells Sansa about how his face became so disfigured.

There are two things I would like to point out in this scene. First, we see that the toy Sandor was playing with was a knight. This may be a coincidence, but I think that, as a boy, he likely looked up to and aspired to be a knight.

Then Sansa's form of comfort. She claims that Gregor was not a "true knight." Sandor laughs at first, but then he repeats the statement in agreement. He does later argue that there are no true knights, but here he simply says that Gregor was not one. Maybe this is in part because some small fragment believes in "true knights." It would be reasonable. He spits on knights and calls them out for their hypocrisy time and again. But why is he so angry about it? While it certainly is possible that he just lumps all knights in with his brother, and it is fair to assume that he has seem some corruption in the past. I think that his rage more likely comes from a place of betrayal. I speculate that he once believed in the ideals of the knight and disdains the men around him who call themselves knights because they tarnish that ideal.

He certainly still clings to a knightly tenant or two. He defends Sir Loras Tyrell from his brother at the tourney of the hand of the king. Note that while he hates his brother, he fights only defensively against him. He isn't fighting to try and kill his brother here, even though his brother is looking at attempted murder. He seems to be fighting purely to protect Loras. He also regularly defends Sansa and even Arya Stark to a degree even when there doesn't seem to be any real profit in it.

With all of this in mind I think that part of him still may cling to the ideals that he once held. I think that much like Sansa he was an idealist who became disillusion after various events in his life. Thus he is the angry man that we meet at the start of the books.

Notice how he is constantly giving Sansa some pretty harsh advice, and he is often the main entety trying to destroy her romantic hopes. However, is he really trying to convince Sansa fairytales aren't real or is he simply fighting to keep himself convinced of that fact while staring down at a fair and kind damsel in distress.

So what do I think this holds for the future? Well, I am of the opinion that the story will take a circular pattern. I think that Sansa will find her way into a song somehow. Maybe it will be a sad one, but I think that Sansa's completed arc will go like this:

Loves the songs and wants to be in something like she hears about -> disillusionment and rejection of the songs and stories as hogwash -> becomes part of a song without realizing perhaps discovering that the songs only seem nice because you know how it ends or because it is simply a retelling of an event in an overly cheerful light

Some suggest that the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" is actually about her and the hound. I doubt this and suspect that Daenerys and Jorah are far more likely candidates. All the same I suspect that Sansa will get her wish and be immortalized in song. Whether this song will be a comedy or a tragedy...

Similarly, I think Sandor's story will come full circle as well. Maybe you might argue it already has. I for one believe in the "Gravedigger" theory and that Sandor will come back some how. Perhaps, he will come face to face with his fear of fire. I would love to see him kill or be killed by a dragon, but that's just a fantasy of mine. However, I am of the opinion that Sandor will somehow achieve becoming an embodiment of the "true knight." This, I suspect, will be the thing that actually kills him, but maybe not.

Overall, I am not arguing that Sandor and Sansa's stories are going to have conclusions dependent on each other, although the "unkiss" is a weird thing that is kind of oddly hanging in the air. I am simply trying to predict the story pattern that may unfold.

But who knows, maybe I am wrong and Sandor is just a big ole dead jerk, or maybe George R.R. Martin is putting the final touches on a bard's performance of "The Hound and the Little Bird."

What do you think? Will Sansa get her song? Will Sandor become a "true knight?"

Wonderful analysis and a very good discussion.

I hope you will be right regarding their story arcs and that they will both get their songs. I love the idea of Sandor facing his fear of fire in the shape of a dragon. What could be more knight-like and more fit for a legend?

Thanks for the hospitality.

To be honest I don't perceive the asoiaf series to be as bleak as most. I am of the opinion that we are only at a point before the story's conclusion. I am of the opinion that while george rr martin has numerous more characters to kill he will likely finish the story in a more cheerful fashion than many may suspect. I have heard it said that he is a fan of "bittersweet," and I also am aware that he is a massive tolkien fan. So i leave you with this quote from sam of lord of the rings fame:

I'm not saying that everyone will get their happily ever after, but I also don't think the series is an exercise in nihilism either.

There are so many opinions about this that I don't always know what to think, but what you are saying is what I'm hoping for, too.

[Robb_Warged]

If Sandor is the grave digger and finds out Sansa is in trouble he will definitely try to save her. I don't think he's forgiven himself for taking the song, the knife at her throat. " No one will ever hurt you again. Or I'll kill them." There's definitely unfinished business there. And the un kiss has a significance.

Remind what part of the story that is from

[Le Cygne]

Dude, you must know that scene! It's the awesome one. The night of Blackwater. :)

GRRM said that was one of his favorite scenes to write.

That was his I love you moment, and when the unkiss happened:

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her.

Then there was this:

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed.

Also there was a dagger and cheek cupping scene for Jon and Ygritte, too:

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted.

"Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

"I never meant to steal you," he said. "I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat."

"We'll go back to the cave," he said. "You're not going to die, Ygritte. You're not."

"Oh." Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she sighed, dying.

And a yanking kiss and dagger in Dunk and Egg, Dunk wanted Rohanne's braid to remember her by, Sandor wanted Sansa's song:

With one hard yank he pulled her down on top of him and kissed her.

But when they finally broke apart, he drew his dagger. "I know what I want to remember you by, m'lady."

[para]

If Sandor is the grave digger and finds out Sansa is in trouble he will definitely try to save her.

Just like he came to save her when the KG beat her up, when Cersei threatened to kill her if Stannis won, just like he came when she had to marry Tyrion, just like he came when her brother and mother were murdered, just like he came when she became Westeros' Most Wanted for Kingslaying. And now when she is under the questionable but effective protection of LF and safer since she has been since Ned got arrested, now he will come? Seriously?

On another note: all the love songs and love stories in-ASIOAF-Universe are tragic. From Florian and Jonquil to Aemon the Dragonkight and Queen Naerys. If Sansa wanted her life to be like a song.... I think that's a meta-joke of GRRM's. Because it already is and it is already tragic.

[Eat My Steel]

I certainly see the similarities between the two character arcs, both losing their innocence vis a vis knights, gallantry, etc. Sansa is playing at games that Sandor has never needed to, however, his council to her was always "do what they tell you to do" and she has slowly learned to accept this. However, I feel that the two characters are also on opposite tracks in some ways, with Sansa becoming more and more jaded, while Sandor is slowly redeeming himself. If the man who used to be the Hound (afterall the Hound is dead) does reappear, it will not be for vengence, anger, or hatred, but to be the gallant hero in shining armour that the knights in Westeros have proven themselves time and time again not to be. I highly doubt the "Clegane Bowl" thing will happen, and if Sandor does come back out of his self imposed exile/hiding it will be near the end of the story at an unexpected time. There will be no storybook beauty and the beast ending for either in such a gritty tale, but I think both will end up in the middle ground: discovering that the world is not all songs and fairy tales (as Sansa sees things at the beginning of the stories), but that it is also not all bleak and atavistic (as Sandor had been conditioned to see things untill winding up on the quiet isle.

[CaptainTheo]

SylvanLore, on 10 Oct 2014 - 8:20 PM, said:

She is a virgin and she has never killed anyone. She is pure and unspoiled, in every sense of the words, and that is combined with her sweet innocence and gentle kindness. She is the Maiden in mortal form, and the best of a highborn lady - proper, adoring and seemingly faint. This brings out the true nature of the people around her. They see a maiden from the ballads and either hates her or loves her for that - they either want to break her or protect her. Tyrion always stood up for her, and Sandor - despite his coarseness and harsh words - starts to act more of a true knight than he ever had before.The ballads do not sing about people like them, but Sansa gives them a breeze of it.

I really like this post and hope that's how it turns out.

[LongRider]

Thanks for welcoming me.

I actually do not think that George rr Martin is actively subverting tropes. Well ok, I think he is but not to such an extreme as some might suggest. Yes, I think he enjoys his little switches where, for example, the kings guard are some pretty bad guys and they wear all white where as the night's watch are pretty good guys and they are clad in black. However, I suspect that this is because, at his core, Martin is a bit of a contrarian.

I like this train of thought, GRRM is a bit contrary, isn't he.

Welcome to the forum. Excellent first thread/first posts.

I agree with pretty much all you've said. I don't think GRRM is a nihilist, either, and he himself was apparently upset when it was suggested he was. The themes of idealism, dreams and romanticism, or chivalry and the true knights ideal, of disappointment, disillusionment and crushed dreams, but of persevering and hoping and finding beauty, goodness and love where you don't expect, are prominent in the series....snip...

We are still to see how exactly Sandor's and Sansa's storyline will unfold. The first act of their story is over; I suspect that the next time they meet, they will be very different people, to each other's surprise, and their dynamic will be different from before. GRRM has said that "the Hound" is dead and that "Sansa" may be dead, too, she's Alayne now. The new Sandor may be gentler and not angry and violent. The new Sansa aka Alayne will be more confident, stronger, but probably more cynical as well, and maybe this time Sandor will remind her of who she really is and give her hope that the world is not all about cynical opportunism and heartless manipulation, which Littlefinger is trying to "teach" her. His "Life is not a song" stands in contrast to Sandor's "Sing me a song".....snip...

I really like the bolded part, that would be a great twist.

to quote tolkien

GRRM may greatly admire Tolkien, but he's his own man.