Dornish Debates iii: Of Kings and Courts

[Brightstar_]

I'm not sure which essay was "that essay," because being normal, I wrote two tomes on Arianne; one was about her personality in the retrospective, and one was on the perfect parallel between her arc and Doran's (both in my sig). However, as a result of that work, I'm of the mind that she is currently, and always has been, Doran with teats (and sex appeal).

In terms of big picture vs. personally, I feel like we do Arianne a discredit to imply that the QM plot was entirely selfish. First of all, as I said, she's looking at Criston Cole's historical precedent, which is why there isn't equal primogeniture in the rest of Westeros. So there are huge cultural implications to being set aside. Secondly, as Doran asserts to the Snakes:

Which backs up the claim Arianne made:

So this wasn't just about her own inheritance, though that was the largest part of that.

It may not have been ENTIRELY selfish, but a large part of it was .

"It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want.”

“And what is it I want, ser?”

“The Sand Snakes freed. Vengeance for Oberyn and Elia. Do I know the song? You want a little taste of lion blood.”

That, and my birthright. I want Sunspear, and my father’s seat. I want Dorne. “I want justice.

This passage IMO clearly shows that she's acting on primarily selfish reasons. She doesn't care all that much about the cultural implications, or about crowning Myrcella, she just wants Dorne, and "her right".

At this point I'd like to ask you if you've read her TWOW excerpt before spoiling anything?

[Julia Martell]

At this point I'd like to ask you if you've read her TWOW excerpt before spoiling anything?

Dude, please... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118148-trial-by-folly-the-arianne-martell-reread-project-twow-arianne-i-spoilers/?p=6443115

(Spoiler alert on the link, for other people...)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As we're about to lock this thread, suggested topics for the next one:

1. Was Quentyn's quest a metaphor for male masturbation? (?)

2. How convenient a marriage between Arianne and Grif could be. (Very)

3. Summer is coming, what to wear if you're a short and boobilicious girl, by Arianne Martell.

[Brightstar_]

Dude, please... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118148-trial-by-folly-the-arianne-martell-reread-project-twow-arianne-i-spoilers/?p=6443115

(Spoiler alert on the link, for other people...)

I was kind of asking the OP and I always seem to fail at placing text in spoiler tags, which is why I asked, which is of course pointless seeing as everyone can read this thread.

[Chebyshov]

I was kind of asking the OP and I always seem to fail at placing text in spoiler tags, which is why I asked, which is of course pointless seeing as everyone can read this thread.

I think it's safe to say I was slightly involved in that reread...Julia linked there because that's where our TWOW chapter discussion started. If you're interested in my thoughts on Arianne's TWOW chapter, and probably on her being power-grabby (which is where I'm guessing that's the direction you're taking this), I have a few very lengthy responses on page 12 of that thread (bit overloaded today so apologies for no links).

We also should probably push Arianne conversation into there, so feel free to just jump in there.

As we're about to lock this thread, suggested topics for the next one:

1. Was Quentyn's quest a metaphor for male masturbation? (?)

2. How convenient a marriage between Arianne and Grif could be. (Very)

3. Summer is coming, what to wear if you're a short and boobilicious girl, by Arianne Martell.

Well, #1 may step on the toes of the approaching reread, but the others are interesting (I'm guessing your preference is #2?). Wanna fire up V4 for us? :wideeyed:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, #1 may step on the toes of the approaching reread, but the others are interesting (I'm guessing your preference is #2?). Wanna fire up V4 for us? :wideeyed:

Actually, #3 because as a small woman I know we can't use sandals with high laces... and Arianne does it.

[I S**t Gold]

Take that and compare it to Doran's "big picture" vs. "thinking personally,"

I think I've read both of your essays. I got directed to them and I really enjoyed both.

I see what you're saying with Doran. In terms of 'bigger picture' I mean that he always seems to have plotted this particular plan with the safety of Dorne in mind. His desire for vengeance was never outweighed by his duties to the realm.

Arianne has to be primarily motivated by self-interest. If Quentyn had seemed like a really great ruler of Dorne, do you think she'd have stepped aside? I honestly think Doran would. Purely hypothetical, I think there's a distinction between there styles.

It may be the extra emotion Arianne has is exactly what Doran lacks. We don't know how good he really is until we find out what his plan is. Doran is pretty inscrutable, but considering his all-consuming desire for revenge he has exercised a considerable degree of restraint over the years.

The consequences of the QM could complicate things for the Dornish people, and Arianne was aware of this. I understand the 'she had no choice' perspective from her viewpoint, but from a neutral standpoint you can't deny that Myrcella's abduction was sufficient to start a war, and we know Arianne knew this. So a choice between her personal interests, her right, and the safety of Dorne. She made a choice. Her father would look for a different way to accomplish this in my view.

It is a minor quibble though.. I really admire your work. I think Doran with teats is over-complimentary but I could accept she has the potential to be another Doran. Doran puts the preservation of the realm above his own burning desire for revenge that is frankly far more understandable than Arianne's. Not that Arianne's isn't understandable.. Just murdered babies probably trumps it. That's what I mean by big picture v thinking personally.

[Julia Martell]

Yeah, I don’t think just giving up a claim would occur to any of these people. Just look at Stannis and the way he talks about his claim.

Are you really suggesting that if Mama Martell was, like, “Doran you suck, I want Elia to inherit” he would have just took it? I don’t think so.

Arianne and Doran are both like Bismarck, yes that Bismarck. They both want to start a war but only as a means to a very specific end. And Doran’s maxim of “the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win.” is so Bismarckian I would totally believe he said it. Doran wants to destroy the Lannister-Baratheon regime and reinstate one that he sees has both more legitimate, and more favourable to Dornish interests. Arianne wanted both to appease a popular desire to challenge that same regime and also to create a situation where her position as heir would be impossible to challenge.

The difference is that Doran had been in a position of relative strength this whole time. He had had the luxury of doing nothing for a long time. Arianne doesn’t have that. She’s waited for nine years and now she’s running out of time. She feels she has to risk everything, or loose everything anyway, she needs to roll the dice. (Not like a drunkard, like Julius Caesar, and yes, I like my great military men comparisons tonight.)

Doran want to achieve his goals with an absolute minimum of bloodshed, and Arianne show that tendency as well. But we’re talking about starting a war here, we have to have some perspective on what “minimum bloodshed” means. And Doran is not nearly as desperate as Arianne at any point, she’s outside the realm of only fighting wars she can win, she’s in “fuck the peace banner” mode.

[Chebyshov]

<snip>

Arianne and Doran are both like Bismarck, yes that Bismarck. They both want to start a war but only as a means to a very specific end. And Doran’s maxim of “the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win.” is so Bismarckian I would totally believe he said it. Doran wants to destroy the Lannister-Baratheon regime and reinstate one that he sees has both more legitimate, and more favourable to Dornish interests. Arianne wanted both to appease a popular desire to challenge that same regime and also to create a situation where her position as heir would be impossible to challenge.

:agree: Exactly! And the bolded especially.

Now, whether we think vengeance is a good enough reason to start a war is another conversation entirely, but I don't see how you can lay the charge of not caring about the safety of Dorne at Arianne's feet when both she and Doran had the same geopolitical goal, and Arianne acted on the best plan she had at her disposal. As Julia wisely pointed out, Arianne was backed into a corner. And even with that she smartly navigated the political climate, using every tool at her disposal, and waiting for the most opportune time to enact her plan.

[Hrafntýr]

yes that Bismarck.

"His tee-ahrs are pohLITical" OMG, why have I never seen this movie!?! I'm so sorry, Julia M., but I'm so taken with the way that this British view of Prussian emotionalism fits with the view of the Dornish, that I can hardly think about your analytical comparisons! Instead, I'm just thinking about the Sand Snakes sitting around the table rolling their eyes while Doran uses some high-falootin rhetoric about not wasting the precious blood of Dornish youth. Cue up the Martell trembling and tears!

[Julia Martell]

"His tee-ahrs are pohLITical" OMG, why have I never seen this movie!?! I'm so sorry, Julia M., but I'm so taken with the way that this British view of Prussian emotionalism fits with the view of the Dornish, that I can hardly think about your analytical comparisons! Instead, I'm just thinking about the Sand Snakes sitting around the table rolling their eyes while Doran uses some high-falootin rhetoric about not wasting the precious blood of Dornish youth. Cue up the Martell trembling and tears!

It’s called 13 part series called Fall of Eagles, from 1974. It’s a look at the downfall of absolutist monarchy in Europe. I recommend it to everyone. It has Patrick Steward playing Lenin. (I know.) I think the whole thing is still on YouTube.

In the past I used Wilhelm’s reaction to Friedrich and Bismarck agreeing about something to illustrate how the Sand Snakes must have felt about Doran and Arianne being all "lovey-dovey united front" in The Watcher.

[I S**t Gold]

Snip.

:agree: Exactly! And the bolded especially.

Now, whether we think vengeance is a good enough reason to start a war is another conversation entirely, but I don't see how you can lay the charge of not caring about the safety of Dorne at Arianne's feet when both she and Doran had the same geopolitical goal, and Arianne acted on the best plan she had at her disposal.

I'm a little worried I'm not making myself understood here. RE - Julia's post I agree with with all of it. Except I wasn't suggesting Doran wouldn't have done the same thing. I'm saying he would have done it in a significantly different manner. He would have read the books Arianne ignored and been better prepared, but that's just my opinion. Also, Bismarck parallels. Phenomenal.

I'm specifically comparing Doran-now to Arianne-now. I am certainly not claiming that Arianne's actions aren't understandable. I have never laid the change of not caring about Dorne's safety at her door (although I may well have not made that point as clearly as I meant to.) That would be a stupid point to make. Its obvious she cares about the country. It's obvious she was backed into a corner. I was saying she cared more about her birthright. Long term she has every reason to believe that her challenge might be best for Dorne, because her father does seem too cautious. Short term she has good reason to believe it might not be. Or maybe that's unfair. Maybe she doesn't because she doesn't read the right books.

If Doran had been denied his birthright it seems perfectly logical that he would not accept it. I very much doubt he'd have gone with the same plan. That is absolutely based on the Doran we know now. He has almost certainly changed since then though. But if we're saying is Arianne Doran with teats? No. Or at least not yet.

Anyway this is just in the interests of clarity. Not trying to be a nobhead, I came here because of these articles. You guys really know your stuff.

I am rabbitting on a bit so I'll try and distill this into a couple of hypothetical questions myself.

My original point was about Arianne failing to read the books she had access to when incarcerated and we haven't really covered that issue in the subsequent discussion. This is really the point I'm most interested in and probably the only thing stopping me from just saying 'okay then.'

So, first question. Arianne doesn't read the books. Does this not seem significant in the slightest?

If we're playing 'what would Doran do in Arianne's shoes?' can we at least agree he'd probably have read them?

Finally, does that matter? And if not, why not?

But the parallels you draw between Doran and Arianne are definitely important and I would as I said be very happy to accept she's on her way to becoming him. She just needs to start reading the right books though. Doran has spies in Kings Landing, the Sept, and Oldtown, while Arianne doesn't seem to be aware of the significance of these centre's of power. I'm not criticising Arianne for not taking these factors into account, but she needs to be taking these things into account before I can accept 'Doran with teats.' At the moment I can definitely get behind 'almost Doran with teats,' and this is no bad thing.

I just want to make the point there's only slight degrees of difference here, and I think maybe you're defending things I totally agree with.

[Hrafntýr]

About those books, I S**t Gold, two considerations:

1. We don't actually know how much of the books she actually read :) . "During the daylight hours she would try to read, but the books that they had given her were deadly dull..." She longs for distracting books, but she does try to read the books provided. Arianne is not, imo, depicted as ignorant or incurious.

2. It's easy for us to think, "OMG, she's been given these totally relevant resources, and she's casting them aside." But at this point, Arianne has absolutely no inkling of why, e.g., "a huge tome about dragons" has any bearing on anything. She thinks that she's been disinherited, and has long since given up on the idea that her father is grooming her for important political actions. We might suggest that she ought, nevertheless, keep her eye on the prize and be constantly devoting herself to preparing herself for the future rule she desires, but I think this is rather a lot to expect, given the circumstances: she's imprisoned, and for all she knows, it might be for forever. I'm not sure that even Doran would set about reading a bunch of books that seem to have nothing to do with his present dire situation. It's easy to contrast her with Quentyn, who seems to have done his assigned homework, but Quent, unlike Arianne, had an assignment.

[Julia Martell]

Arianne shows that she’s not ignorant of history and politics on a number of occasions.

“Not the Golden Company. Our word is good as gold has been their boast since the days of Bittersteel. Myr is on the point of war with Lys and Tyrosh. Why break a contract that offered them the prospect of good wages and good plunder?”

“Perhaps Lys offered them better wages. Or Tyrosh.”

“No,” she said. “I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It’s home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions.” She took Ser Arys by the hand, and wove her fingers through his own. “Have you ever seen the arms of House Toland of Ghost Hill?”

He had to think a moment. “A dragon eating its own tail?”

“The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn .“He whispers in my brother’s ear that he should rule after my father, that it is not right for men to kneel to women . . . that Arianne especially is unfit to rule, being the willful wanton that she is.”

This passage not only proves that she’s aware of the happening in the Free Cities (the same happenings that Cersei dismissed as irrelevant btw), not only is she well versed in the whos and whats of the Blackfyre Rebellions and the Dance of Dragons and their various legal and cultural implications, but she can also synthesize this information and make it relevant to present circumstance.

This is what we in education call “higher order thinking skills” to HOTS( :-) ).

“Much longer and he will cook in those heavy clothes, she reflected. He would not be the first. In centuries past, many a host had come down from the Prince’s Pass with banners streaming, only to wither and broil on the hot red Dornish sands. “The arms of House Martell display the sun and spear, the Dornishman’s two favored weapons,” the Young Dragon had once written in his boastful Conquest of Dorne, “but of the two, the sun is the more deadly.”

The most powerful of the Dornish lords was Anders Yronwood, the Bloodroyal, Lord of Yronwood and Warden of the Stone Way, but Arianne knew better than to look for help from the man who had fostered her brother Quentyn. No. “Drey’s brother Ser Deziel Dalt had once aspired to marry her, but he was much too dutiful to go against his prince. Besides, whilst the Knight of Lemonwood might intimidate a petty lord, he did not have the strength to sway the Prince of Dorne. No. The same was true of Spotted Sylva’s father. No. Arianne finally decided that she had but two real hopes: Harmen Uller, Lord of Hellholt, and Franklyn Fowler, Lord of Skyreach and Warden of the Prince’s Pass.

Half of the Ullers are half-mad, the saying went, and the other half are worse. Ellaria Sand was Lord Harmen’s natural daughter. She and her little ones had been locked away with the rest of the Sand Snakes. That would have made Lord Harmen wroth, and the Ullers were dangerous when wroth. Too dangerous, perhaps. The princess did not want to put any more lives in danger.

Lord Fowler might be a safer choice. The Old Hawk, he was called. He had never gotten on with Anders Yronwood; there was bad blood between their Houses going back a thousand years, from when the Fowlers had chosen Martell over Yronwood during Nymeria’s War. The Fowler twins were famous friends of Lady Nym as well, but how much weight would that carry with the Old Hawk?

Her knowledge of these people here is not superficial, it’s informed by their own historical/political context and her own experience of them.

So yeah, I think you’re being a little hard on her for not eating up all those books. As Hrafntýr said, she had no reason to think dragons were anymore relevant to her than dodo birds are to us. And I think it’s unfair to blame her for wanting to be a little distracted by People magazine given her circumstances and the kind of stuff that’s going thought her head. Her brain is always on, and it’s always making connections.

And she had desert survival skills, which is awesome.

[I S**t Gold]

Snip.

I didn't say she was ignorant or incurious. I said Doran was considerably more curious. I don't understand why people keep interpreting this as a dig at Arianne. I am comparing her to somebody I consider one of the greats of Westeros and I'm saying she's not there yet. Again I've never called her incurious or ignorant. When I compare her to Doran she falls short.

I would also say we can have a bloody good guess she's not read the books, and that the fact she's found them boring means she doesn't see these things as important. We know they are important. We know Doran thinks they're important. Quite a lot of people aren't thinking about dragons, this isn't a dig at Arianne. If (as Julia demonstrates in the post after yours) she has a good overview of current affairs in Westeros, then I would say she should know this if we're going to call her 'Doran with teats' because he does.

I'm worried by how unreasonable I must sound but just to reiterate I have a high opinion of Arianne. She could very well be the next Doran. I don't think she measures up to the current one, but I think she's pretty close which is no bad thing.

Snip.

I think the sources you're putting forward are interesting but this is a question of degrees. I'm saying Doran has more of an advanced sense of what is going on in Westeros than Arianne does. That is not a negative thing. For me it's like saying Lionel Messi is a better football player than Luis Suarez.

I'm not hard on her for not reading the books. I'm highlighting the fact she didn't as a crucial difference in their characters. Almost every character in the series would fall into the category of being less informed than Doran. I understand why someone like Arianne would overlook them, I don't see why Doran wouldn't. Also by virtue of being part of the Dornish court there is probably a minimum she's expected to learn. If you look at the education of Sansa and Arya, they know a hell of a lot in their early teens about the way Westeros works. I'm not sure whether they deserve exceptional credit for this because it was drummed into them, but I can't reach the same conclusion with Arianne because I don't know how much of this was a compulsory part of her upbringing.

I realise there might be an implication I'm being hard on her but I don't see it that way. Its more that I have the utmost regard for Doran, or at least the way he prizes intelligence. Maybe the difference is the significance I attach to that facet of his personality. I see that quality in Tyrion Lannister for example. I'm not saying Arianne is incapable of it, just that it doesn't come as natural and her overlooking those books is a factor.

[Hrafntýr]

Hey there, I S**t Gold, I didn't read your post as a dig at Arianne, nor did I mean to imply that you had suggested that she was ignorant or incurious! I was simply saying that I'm not sure we even know that she didn't read the books, since she doesn't come across as uninterested in learning more generally; she seems well-educated, knowledgeable and smart. You don't sound unreasonable, I was simply following up on the point you raised. You were pointing to a difference between Doran and Arianne, viz. what they would, respectively, do in the situation in which Arianne finds herself. Besides the matter of the "library" at hand, Doran also says that he would play cyvasse against himself, or rather, he tells Arianne that that's what she ought to have done. I'm not 100% convinced that he would have done so in that situation, though (he plays only games that he can win), nor that he would have devoured books about dragons and geography if he didn't know that dragons had been reborn. He is in the privileged position of receiving reports from spies abroad, and we know that Arianne has been excluded from the real work of ruling Dorne. I don't think she knows about the dragons until after her imprisonment. Maybe she should have thought, "Oh, my father is trying to communicate something to me with this choice of books," but given their history, it's not hard to see why she wouldn't have assumed that this was important state information. She thinks her dad just wants her to entertain the guests before marrying her off to a greybeard.

I'm a huge Doran fan, and as inclined as anybody to swallow, hook, line and sinker, the notion that he's the master thinker (heck, I've been known to think that there may even be some way in which the whole Quentyn thing is not as it seems, so dedicated am I to the idea of Doran's awesomeness). However, the truth is that, unlike with Arianne, we aren't inside of Doran's head, and our only insights into how he spends his time "alone" come from when he's not truly alone. And at the same time, I've been powerfully persuaded by the Arianne reread to see strong similarities between Doran and Arianne. Perhaps now, with more age and experience, he's less likely to make mistakes than is Arianne, it's hard to say. But, to return to an earlier point of discussion, I think they have in common a sense that she or he embodies Dorne, so that her or his visions and plans, however tied up with personal objectives (vengeance, in the case of Doran, inheritance in the case of Arianne), are for Dorne. They may have thought that their styles or plans were divergent (backstage orchestration of a Targaryen alliance, in Doran's case, using popular anger against the Iron Throne in Arianne's), but for my part, I see them as awfully similar.

I wonder if Doran has always been bookish (and I'm not even entirely sure how bookish he is)? Or if it's only as he became older, or as he kept having to restrain his desire for vengeance, that he withdrew into ever more elaborate details?

I would totally love a novella relating the life and times of Doran Martell! I'd love to see what he was like as a younger person, especially in the years of Aerys' reign and the rebellion.

[I S**t Gold]

Snip.

Thanks for clarifying. Again I broadly agree with you. I have caught up with the Arianne reread (and heartily recommend anyone who hasn't to do the same), and I would also say I've been powerfully persuaded by the essays myself to see these parallels. It's just I'm a tiny bit less persuaded. I do think the parallels are significant definitely. I just think some of the differences might be equally important in the long run, but it's kind of impossible to explore that point further than I have without descending into pointless explanation.

I think your point about both embodying Dorne is very insightful. I'd differ only in the sense that maybe they embody different generations of Dorne. She's different from Doran in the same way the Sand Snakes are different to Oberyn. I feel like the values of a people can't help but be diluted slightly from generation to generation. It's not a massive difference, but I think it's significant. It might even be a plus. Might she be the less cautious Doran Dorne needs? Might Doran spend too much time on the theoretical and not enough on the practical? But I do think the differences are significant, but it's hard when you can't read further to back up that point. The not reading the books thing is the best example from the text I can think of to illustrate that point, but I do get the general sense she's bolder than Doran and also less likely to ruminate over the theoretical. .

I take your point about not being able to see in Doran's head. I agree I don't know what Doran would do in Arianne's exact position. But I think she's definitely going to be her own ruler, even though Doran's influence is significant. But then again maybe being 'your own ruler' is also quite a Doran thing to be. This is getting confusing :drunk:

[Julia Martell]

I take your point about not being able to see in Doran's head. I agree I don't know what Doran would do in Arianne's exact position. But I think she's definitely going to be her own ruler, even though Doran's influence is significant. But then again maybe being 'your own ruler' is also quite a Doran thing to be. This is getting confusing :drunk:

I know! It’s so much work when you have realistic, three dimensional characters! I feel like watching Pokemon with my son sometimes, just to give my brain a break.

[Hrafntýr]

<snip>

It's an interesting suggestion that there's a sort of "generation gap" in Dorne, though I also can't help but to wonder about the personal impact upon Doran of the spectacularly tragic end of Dorne's political maneuvers when he was younger. I'm thinking of Oberyn's remarks to Tyrion about how Mama Martell thought she had bested Tywin when she arranged Elia's marriage to Rhaegar, only to have Elia and her children meet their ends at Tywin's hands. Perhaps there was a generation gap back then, too! Surely this would have been a formative period in Doran's political development.

But then I also think that we humans often become more cautious as we age; I know that I at 43 am far more cautious than I was at 23! And then there's the tendency of parents to be frustrated that our children can't just learn from us the wisdom that we've gleaned from our own mistakes, instead of having to make their own mistakes. I guess I find it challenging to compare a quite young person like Arianne to a middle-aged person like Doran...though as these threads demonstrate, it's quite possible! I think that their personalities and behavioral tendencies are very similar, but that they mostly differ in experience and, possibly, a sense of family support (though we don't know a lot about the closeness of Doran with his sibs and parents). But who can say what Arianne would be like at twice her age?

[Brightstar_]

I know! It’s so much work when you have realistic, three dimensional characters! I feel like watching Pokemon with my son sometimes, just to give my brain a break.

Watching pokemon is awesome in it's own right!