Three Little Pigs and Big Bad Wolf

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The thing is, we know little to nothing about Hightower's character. And with Aerys as the King and the rebels about to win, either Aerys ordered them to remain behind at the ToJ or they have to leave to watch over the King, be it Aerys or Viserys. And let's not start with "Ah, but it's proof that Lyanna and Rhaegar were secretly married" because Rhaegar was likely expecting a girl, who would be behind Viserys in the Targaryen laws of succession.

<snips

Actually none of the ToJ happenings make any sense if Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married.

Aerys was dead. Rhaegar was dead. Rhaegar's kids were dead (as far as anybody knew). If Lyanna's child was illegitimate, and Robert had already claimed the throne, there was zero reason for the KG to stay put. In that case they absolutely should have taken the opening Ned gave them to go to Dragonstone where the only remaining trueborn Targ claimant was.

I'm starting to disagree with the assessment that Rhaegar was expecting a girl. As others have pointed out, if he was trying to recreate Aegon and his sisters, then his daughter Rhaenys should have been named Visenya.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I wasn't the one who said Rhaegar had "full authority" to give orders to the Kingsguard. That was the author. Where is the text that indicates that any member of the royal family can give an order to the KG that will keep them from their primary reason for existence (which if Aerys is king would be guarding Aerys)?

He had full authority in the absence of any other authority or conflicting orders.

The Great Council in 101 had a lot of people in attendance, but we do not know the minimum attendance required for a Great Council. It's not like the Great Council in 101 was dealing with an obviously insane and dangerous king. It may be possible to have a Great Council with a few key people. Jon Arryn would not have to know about it. I'd imagine at this point the Hand of the King, the LC of the Kingsguard, the heir of course, the Grand Maester, and maybe the High Septon would be sufficient for an emergency situation. Aerys was burning his Hands, for crying out loud! Desperate times call for desperate measures.

I mean, it's called a Great Council, the idea that it could be done with fewer people than the actual Small Council stretches credibility to the extreme.

Rhaegar's remark to Jaime is that he is going "make changes." He does not mention calling a Great Council when he gets back from kicking Robert's butt.

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." - Jaime I, AFFC

[juanml82]

Actually none of the ToJ happenings make any sense if Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married.

Aerys was dead. Rhaegar was dead. Rhaegar's kids were dead (as far as anybody knew). If Lyanna's child was illegitimate, and Robert had already claimed the throne, there was zero reason for the KG to stay put. In that case they absolutely should have taken the opening Ned gave them to go to Dragonstone where the only remaining trueborn Targ claimant was.

I'm starting to disagree with the assessment that Rhaegar was expecting a girl. As others have pointed out, if he was trying to recreate Aegon and his sisters, then his daughter Rhaenys should have been named Visenya.

What we assume about the ToJ happenings makes no sense, no matter a secret marriage the Realm wouldn't shallow. Aerys II has one undisputed heir who is in danger. If those three KG are "True Knights" at least one of them had to go to look after him.

The more reasonable explanation is that they were Rhaegar's men and they were looking after Rhaegar's child, no matter their oaths. It would be as if they were only human, after all.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

What we assume about the ToJ happenings makes no sense, no matter a secret marriage the Realm wouldn't shallow. Aerys II has one undisputed heir who is in danger. If those three KG are "True Knights" at least one of them had to go to look after him.

The more reasonable explanation is that they were Rhaegar's men and they were looking after Rhaegar's child, no matter their oaths. It would be as if they were only human, after all.

That doesn't explain why they specifically state they were following their vows, and Ned Stark, who's known for being a bit of a stickler about things like vows, still thinks of them they way that he did. Ned Stark, of course, also being someone who has access to a lot of information the reader doesn't have. Ned's views here cannot be ignored.

[psyqo78]

People want R+L=J to be wrong so bad that they will look for any reason for it not to be true. I hate bringing this up but this was the defining question and answer that led to the eventual show runners being "fit" for the job and I highly doubt that they gave a "well he's just Ned's bastard" response. My only problem with the memory;however, is that Ned states that there were two survivors who left the TOJ; him and Howland Reed. I can see reasons why a 3rd would not be noted because of the mortality of infants, his recollection being based off feelings at the moment and/or to just leave the mystery debatable/argumentative. I can't wait for this to be laid to rest.

[corbon]

Again, the idea of a secret Great Council makes absolutely no sense. We don't know all the details about how the Great Councils worked, but based on what we do know about the Great Council in 101 (the one that made Viserys I the heir) it included many lords in attendance. It simply would not be possible to do such a thing without a lot of people knowing, including all of the great lords (that is, such a thing would not be a secret to Jon Arryn. If Jon Arryn knew that Aerys was being deposed, why would he call his banners in response to Aerys's demands?). There seems no plausible way to do anything of the sort in secret.

No one said a 'secret' Great Council.

But if you are going to call a great council to legally depose the King, you damn well better make sure its going to go the way you plan it to. Because if it fails, the king might very well have you executed for treason, heir or not. He does have a spare.

So you quietly sound out selected critical Lords before calling anything. You build your backing quietly and carefully before you go public. Its not the Great Council itself that will be secret, its that one will be called, and why, is a secret until enough backing is secured to make it less of a risk.

However, if Aerys' spymaster gets wind of this and starts poking his nose in to things, even quietly sounding out Lords becomes very dangerous. Plans may be put on hold, other pathways looked for, this road not taken. Aerys, after all, has not yet gotten as bad as murdering Lords, burning Hands, beating Rhaella and the like.

In fact, Rhaegar's remark to Jaime says that he intends to call a council after the battle. There is nothing to indicate that such an action has already been taken and that Rhaegar is secretly the king, which literally no one else knows about.

Well, the remark that he intended to do it but didn't take that road yet, and intends to do it after the battle now, is an indication that it wasn't taken itself.

If Rhaegar had already been made king, Aerys wouldn't be in charge any more.

Really, this is an unnecesary and unworkable theory created entirely out of the false need to 'explain' why a crown prince can give orders to a KG. The simple fact is quite a few people can give orders to KG so long as those orders don't break their main purpose and vows. This is basic common sense. The crown prince, other royal family members, a regent, the Hand, the Lord Commander, anyone else put specifically in charge of them (eg a Commander of an Army in which they are generals will all have the authority to give orders to the KG within certain limits. You think if Rhaelle went out to the market or similar and commanded a KG to attend her they would have said no ma'am if the King was already being attended by another? Not likely!

The thing is, we know little to nothing about Hightower's character.

We know he was a stickler for duty above all.

We know that when Jaime was unhappy about Aerys treatment of Brandon and Rickard Stark it was Hightower who took him aside and reminded him they were sworn to defend the king, not judge him.

We know that Hightower told Ned that if they were there Aerys would still sit the throne (not Rhaegar)

We know that it is Hightower who pins their being at ToJ on their Vow.

And with Aerys as the King and the rebels about to win, either Aerys ordered them to remain behind at the ToJ or they have to leave to watch over the King, be it Aerys or Viserys.

No. Their vow is to protect the king but they can also be assigned other duties, including guarding royal family members, suppressing bandits, leading or gathering armies and the like. They also have to follow orders. If they are assigned to Rhaegar, and he gives them an order, then they have to follow it. If Aerys tells Hightower to get Rhaeger to come back, and Rhaegar tells Hightower 'stay here or I won't go' Hightower has to stay in order to follow his orders from Aerys.

Only if the King is unprotected by the KG do they need to go to him. Aerys is never in that situation. Viserys is King only if Jon is a bastard. They do not go to Viserys, so either they are in dereliction, or Jon is not a bastard. Since they proudly proclaim their status and vows, and Ned honours them, clearly neither they nor Ned believe they are in dereliction.

And let's not start with "Ah, but it's proof that Lyanna and Rhaegar were secretly married" because Rhaegar was likely expecting a girl, who would be behind Viserys in the Targaryen laws of succession.

What Rhaegar expects is irrelevant. Either Vserys is their king and they are in dereliction but proudly proclaim their vows and status anyway, or Viserys is not their king. The only way Viserys is not their king is if R+L were married. Its no good whining about that just because you don't like it, its simply an escapable conclusion.

Either all three of those famously honourable and dutiful men were in complete dereliction of their duty, and they knew, it, and yet they still proudly proclaimed their status and their adherence to their vows, or Rhaegar married Lyanna. Only one of those options is realistically feasible, and people hating it doesn't change anything.

So, whatever the reasons they stayed at the ToJ, they were forsaking their vows.

If Viserys is not the king, they are not forsaking any vows. And that is any easy, sensible, logical, fitting and likely option that works with all the data and all the characterisations.

Arys wouldn't have been in dereliction of duty because he was commanded by the Queen Regent to protect Princess Myrcella. Had Arys been chilling at the Vale because Prince Tommen ordered him to guard Robert Arryn, then Arys would have been in dereliction of his duty. Someone, who is not the King, told him to protect someone who isn't the Royal Family and he chose to do that instead of returning to KL to receive orders from the King regarding the protection of either the King or the Royal Family.

Thats a bad example because Tommen is a minor not fit to command anyone.

Here's what GRRM said:

The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

If Rhaegar told them to stay, they stay and are not in dereliction at that time. Unless the king is unprotected, then their first duty (protect the king) comes into play. However, once the king is unprotected, their first duty is to protect the king so one of them must go to him at least. Thats what should have happened when the learned Viserys was unprotected - if he was king.

But you'd think the Kingsguard would have been frantically trying to get Lyanna and Jon, or maybe just Jon, out of Westeros, not waiting around for Robert's army to find them. And I dunno how Ned won the fight - maybe Bloodraven or Howland did something cool.

Lyanna was dying, Jon newborn, and their main defence was secrecy. They did not know that their secret location was compromised. So their choices are flee now, probably killing or abandoning King Jon's mother and greatly risking the King's life, as well as risking the vagaries of travel and being found out, or stay in their hidey-hole for now and hope it hasn't been compromised.

They made the wrong choice, but its the best choice to make based on what they knew and the situation they were in.

As to winning the fight, 7 veteran swordsmen, most of whom have trained for war their entire lives and are probably classed as elite warriors, vs 3 super-elites, is probably advantage to the 7, despite what Hollywood would do.

What we assume about the ToJ happenings makes no sense, no matter a secret marriage the Realm wouldn't shallow. Aerys II has one undisputed heir who is in danger. If those three KG are "True Knights" at least one of them had to go to look after him.

The more reasonable explanation is that they were Rhaegar's men and they were looking after Rhaegar's child, no matter their oaths. It would be as if they were only human, after all.

The heir is irrelevant. At this stage we are down to Viserys and if-legit, Jon. Viserys is either King or not. If he's king, they absolutely should go to him. If he's not, there is no need at all and in fact the only ay he can be not is if Jon is legit and then he three KG are in fact right with their king , guarding him!

So the choice is:

1. The 3 KG have abandoned their vows, lie about supporting Aerys, ignore their King Viserys and are Rhaegars' men, looking after Rhaegar's bastard child, all the while proudly procaliming their staus as Kg and their adherence to their vows.

or

2. Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. Therefore Jon is legit, ahead of Viserys in the succession and the 3 KG are guarding their king, faithful to their vows. There is not a single piece of evidence against any marriage. Targaryen polygamy is a fact in the books and although its harder for the Targs to go against custom without dragons, its not impossible and incest, which is notably worse, is still tolerated without dragons.

1 verges on the ridiculous, 2 is incredible simple and easy and fits all characterisations and data. Its a no contest really.

My only problem with the memory;however, is that Ned states that there were two survivors who left the TOJ; him and Howland Reed. I can see reasons why a 3rd would not be noted because of the mortality of infants, his recollection being based off feelings at the moment and/or to just leave the mystery debatable/argumentative. I can't wait for this to be laid to rest.

Ned says that of the 10 fighters, only two walked away. That doesn't cover any others, such as baby Jon, Wylla-the wetnurse, or any other non-combatants who may have been there.

Ned remembers "they" found him with Lyanna dead in his arms, so at least one more person was there besides Howland Reed. Probably there was a skeleton staff to cook/clean/midwife/wetnurse etc. 3KG and a hugely pregnant noblewoman don't camp out in the middle of nowhere alone for months and months, surely.

[juanml82]

That doesn't explain why they specifically state they were following their vows, and Ned Stark, who's known for being a bit of a stickler about things like vows, still thinks of them they way that he did. Ned Stark, of course, also being someone who has access to a lot of information the reader doesn't have. Ned's views here cannot be ignored.

They didn't specifically state they were following their vows. Ned feverish dream put those words in their mouths. Ned is s stickler about things like vows, but put family ahead of vows. If he was given to be believe the KG feared for Jon's life if they handed over to him (which was a reasonable fear by the KG), he just won't give a damn about Viserys being unprotected.

No one said a 'secret' Great Council.

But if you are going to call a great council to legally depose the King, you damn well better make sure its going to go the way you plan it to. Because if it fails, the king might very well have you executed for treason, heir or not. He does have a spare.

So you quietly sound out selected critical Lords before calling anything. You build your backing quietly and carefully before you go public. Its not the Great Council itself that will be secret, its that one will be called, and why, is a secret until enough backing is secured to make it less of a risk.

However, if Aerys' spymaster gets wind of this and starts poking his nose in to things, even quietly sounding out Lords becomes very dangerous. Plans may be put on hold, other pathways looked for, this road not taken. Aerys, after all, has not yet gotten as bad as murdering Lords, burning Hands, beating Rhaella and the like.

We know he was a stickler for duty above all.

1)We know that when Jaime was unhappy about Aerys treatment of Brandon and Rickard Stark it was Hightower who took him aside and reminded him they were sworn to defend the king, not judge him.

2)We know that Hightower told Ned that if they were there Aerys would still sit the throne (not Rhaegar)

2)We know that it is Hightower who pins their being at ToJ on their Vow.

1) Do we?

2) Which, as young Jaime quickly realizes, conflicts with plenty of other vows they also have a duty to uphold. This also applies to Aerys treatment of his wife. Whatever those three are, True Knights they are not

3) No, we don't. We know Ned's fever dream put those words on Hightower's mouth

No. Their vow is to protect the king but they can also be assigned other duties, including guarding royal family members, suppressing bandits, leading or gathering armies and the like. They also have to follow orders. If they are assigned to Rhaegar, and he gives them an order, then they have to follow it. If Aerys tells Hightower to get Rhaeger to come back, and Rhaegar tells Hightower 'stay here or I won't go' Hightower has to stay in order to follow his orders from Aerys.

Only if the King is unprotected by the KG do they need to go to him. Aerys is never in that situation. Viserys is King only if Jon is a bastard. They do not go to Viserys, so either they are in dereliction, or Jon is not a bastard. Since they proudly proclaim their status and vows, and Ned honours them, clearly neither they nor Ned believe they are in dereliction.

What Rhaegar expects is irrelevant. Either Vserys is their king and they are in dereliction but proudly proclaim their vows and status anyway, or Viserys is not their king. The only way Viserys is not their king is if R+L were married. Its no good whining about that just because you don't like it, its simply an escapable conclusion.

Either all three of those famously honourable and dutiful men were in complete dereliction of their duty, and they knew, it, and yet they still proudly proclaimed their status and their adherence to their vows, or Rhaegar married Lyanna. Only one of those options is realistically feasible, and people hating it doesn't change anything.

If Viserys is not the king, they are not forsaking any vows. And that is any easy, sensible, logical, fitting and likely option that works with all the data and all the characterisations.

Rhaegar was never King. Even if Jon wasn't a bastard, the mere secret of this purported marriage and the fact that Viserys is a well know entity gives Viserys a far better claim to the IT than Jon can possibly have at that point. And they don't make a single move to protect him. And, with hindsight, we do know it were Viserys and Daenerys who ended up needing protection, not Jon.

You assume they were robots, unable to disobey their vows, when they've already done so - at the very least, by letting Aerys savage his wife.

Thats a bad example because Tommen is a minor not fit to command anyone.

Change it to Lancel and you have the same situation.

So the choice is:

1. The 3 KG have abandoned their vows, lie about supporting Aerys, ignore their King Viserys and are Rhaegars' men, looking after Rhaegar's bastard child, all the while proudly procaliming their staus as Kg and their adherence to their vows.

or

2. Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. Therefore Jon is legit, ahead of Viserys in the succession and the 3 KG are guarding their king, faithful to their vows. There is not a single piece of evidence against any marriage. Targaryen polygamy is a fact in the books and although its harder for the Targs to go against custom without dragons, its not impossible and incest, which is notably worse, is still tolerated without dragons.

1 verges on the ridiculous, 2 is incredible simple and easy and fits all characterisations and data. Its a no contest really.

The 3 KG had long abandoned some of their vows, they might have been involved in whatever conspiracy (aka "Secret Grand Council") Rhaegar might have planned, they might have heard about that prophecy, they abandoned Viserys and we do not know if they were indeed proclaiming their status as KG. Are you really going to be surprised if, by the time ADOS is finally published, we get a non feverish description of the events at the ToJ and they don't match Ned's dream?

[Ygrain]

What we assume about the ToJ happenings makes no sense, no matter a secret marriage the Realm wouldn't shallow. Aerys II has one undisputed heir who is in danger. If those three KG are "True Knights" at least one of them had to go to look after him.

The more reasonable explanation is that they were Rhaegar's men and they were looking after Rhaegar's child, no matter their oaths. It would be as if they were only human, after all.

Aegon wasn't in danger until after the Trident, and given the short time between the Trident and the Sack, the KG hardly learned in time to do anything about it. Most likely, they learned only after the Sack took place.

They didn't specifically state they were following their vows. Ned feverish dream put those words in their mouths. Ned is s stickler about things like vows, but put family ahead of vows. If he was given to be believe the KG feared for Jon's life if they handed over to him (which was a reasonable fear by the KG), he just won't give a damn about Viserys being unprotected.

BS. When Ned tells his assessment of KG to Bran, he is not feverish (not to mention that disregarding an old dream as a feverish one-time event is BS, as well). Hence, if they were a shining lesson of what a KG should be, then in his awake and non-feverish state of mind he knows that they were true to their vows.

The 3 KG had long abandoned some of their vows, they might have been involved in whatever conspiracy (aka "Secret Grand Council") Rhaegar might have planned, they might have heard about that prophecy, they abandoned Viserys and we do not know if they were indeed proclaiming their status as KG. Are you really going to be surprised if, by the time ADOS is finally published, we get a non feverish description of the events at the ToJ and they don't match Ned's dream?

They abandoned their vows but go around chest-beating that they are KG and true to their vows? Yeah, makes sense. I'm sure GRRM wrote this very conscise piece of writing just for shits and giggles.

[juanml82]

Aegon wasn't in danger until after the Trident, and given the short time between the Trident and the Sack, the KG hardly learned in time to do anything about it. Most likely, they learned only after the Sack took place.

Aegon wasn't. Viserys was.

BS. When Ned tells his assessment of KG to Bran, he is not feverish (not to mention that disregarding an old dream as a feverish one-time event is BS, as well). Hence, if they were a shining lesson of what a KG should be, then in his awake and non-feverish state of mind he knows that they were true to their vows.

Ned didn't know about Rhaella and probably valued more their vow breaking in defending Jon than following their vows and protecting Viserys. Do you think Ned would tell Bran that if he had known Arthur Dayne watched over while Aerys violently raped Rhaella?

They abandoned their vows but go around chest-beating that they are KG and true to their vows? Yeah, makes sense. I'm sure GRRM wrote this very conscise piece of writing just for shits and giggles.

No, he wrote it so we can compare to Jaime's later, and more accurate, assessment of "too many vows"

[Ulthosian Stark]

I think his parentage will have more to do with prince-that-was-promised territory then taking any thrones, maybe a nice one in Winterfell after its all said and done (never gonna happen, that's best case scenario shit).

It'll have to do with more save the world type stuff then govern the world while it dies type stuff.. I hope at least

[Ygrain]

Aegon wasn't. Viserys was.

Ned didn't know about Rhaella and probably valued more their vow breaking in defending Jon than following their vows and protecting Viserys. Do you think Ned would tell Bran that if he had known Arthur Dayne watched over while Aerys violently raped Rhaella?

No, he wrote it so we can compare to Jaime's later, and more accurate, assessment of "too many vows"

Aegon wasn't what, in danger? The Rebel army was marching on KL, that's why Viserys was transported to safety. After the Sack, yes, Viserys needed KG protection - if he was king.

Completely your fabrication, and supported neither by text nor logic. What makes a true KG? Defending the king. There is no other way to go about it. Defending a non-king Jon while king Viserys has no KG is not exemplary KG behaviour.

As it happens, Dayne was not present to Rhaella's rape, hence your point is moot.

And what does Ned think of Jaime? That he irredeemably broke his KG vow, and when he thinks of Dayne etc., he thinks in the context of their KG vow, which, to his best knowledge, was not broken.

ETA: If Dayne broke his vows in order to protect an innocent, Ned would almost certainly respect him as a human being, but NOT as Kingsguard.

[King of the West]

No one ever explains why the servants at the TOJ didn't come into play. Were they ordered to stay at Starfall and if so Duck, Haldon, Septa allhave? ? marks on them. Never bought some of their stories. Also would Ashara fake her death to make sure they stayed loyal, and help to bring to fruition what her brother AD souht to protect???? Thoghts.........

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Why people want it to be true so bad { marriage of Rhaegar Lyanna} ? Even if he married, he is no less a culprit in the events that followed his vanishing with Lyanna.

[George48]

Why people want it to be true so bad { marriage of Rhaegar Lyanna} ? Even if he married, he is no less a culprit in the events that followed his vanishing with Lyanna.

It's been so long, people have been waiting and had way too much free time. Now, some just feel too invested...

... or they are on the Rhaegar hype-train complete with rose-coloured glasses... or just love Jon or the concept of chosen-one so much that they want Lord Snow to become King notSnow... althought this would be completely out of character... and so on.

In the end the reasons are way too many to count.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

It's been so long, people have been waiting and had way too much free time. Now, some just feel too invested...

... or they are on the Rhaegar hype-train complete with rose-coloured glasses... or just love Jon or the concept of chosen-one so much that they want Lord Snow to become King notSnow... althought this would be completely out of character... so on.

In the end the reasons are way too many to count.

Well they are preparing themselves for another sucker punch by Martin.

[Ygrain]

It's been so long, people have been waiting and had way too much free time. Now, some just feel too invested...

... or they are on the Rhaegar hype-train complete with rose-coloured glasses... or just love Jon or the concept of chosen-one so much that they want Lord Snow to become King notSnow... althought this would be completely out of character... and so on.

In the end the reasons are way too many to count.

Oh, the entitlement...

Hate to break it on you but the not-Snow part was at the end of the reasoning process, not its beginning. As you would know if you actually bothered to do some reading.