Three Little Pigs and Big Bad Wolf

[Stannis's birthright]

The Kingsguard were hoping they would have time to move Lyanna and the heir but because of her being unwell they couldn't . They hoped to remain unnoticed . Someone told , someone always tells .. Ned and his posse find out where Lyanna is and come to the Tower . Because KG are Knights he very much doesn't want to fight or kill he give them every chance to leave. Go so far as to tell them where Viserys and the Queen are .. They won't leave . Every word of the conversation may not of been in the dream but the majority is .

[Lady Blizzardborn]

George48, I have this idea that while Tywin is one hell of a battle commander and strategist, he's not so hot in one-on-one swordplay. I don't think he could have taken even one of the three, let alone all of them.

There are places in Dorne where an army can't go. I'm guessing the ToJ location is one of those, so they wouldn't need to worry about an army showing up. I'm not sure the Martells even knew they were there, and after Elia and her children were murdered they had bigger fish to fry than some Northern girl and her (supposed) bastard child.

The dialogue could be off because Ned has exaggerated the badassness of the Three Amigos in his mind, and the fever is adding to that. I've never had any trouble with the dialogue. We know very little about Hightower, Whent and Artie Dayne. Maybe they really talked like that.

[Ygrain]

I still don't get it: how does that analysis prove that we can trust a dream? The dialogue IS just... off, it does not seem real.

Also, I still am curious: why were there only three people guarding Lyanna or whatever was in that tower? No matter how skilled they were they could not have defeat an army and that was the most likely case, that Ned or Robert would should up with either an army or a vanguard (more than 50 horsemen, probably mostly knights). If they were truly sent to defend, "the prince/king" (Jon) and "the queen" (Lyanna) why were they alone? Also why didn't they go to Dorne or Dragonstone? If Rhaegar was dead and Jon was the king then it was their duty to protect his life and for all they knew the first man to come could have been Tywin ready for round two or the Dornishmen under Doran or Oberynwho want to follow Tywin's example.

Also... the whole episode does not seem real... it is shaky. I bet that there is more to it and we should probably wait for WOW before saying that Jon was in the tower with Lyanna.

Because the dream is there for a reason, and it is a piece of a very careful writing ladden with meaning. The meaning still applies even if it's not an exact description of how the showdown went, and it most likely isn't - the dialogue is very condensed, almost ritualized. It is more like a gist of what was said, or even Ned's thoughts ex post, of the KG's reasons.

Ned travelled with only six trustworthy companions, to a location that was previously secret - meaning, he had some extra information and at least suspected that what he would find there had better not become public knowledge. The secrecy would also be the reason why the location was guarded solely by the KG - highly skilled and ultimately faithful. The more people on the secret, the higher the risk of a leak and the information reaching the wrong ears, be it Aerys or the rebels.

[George48]

George48, I have this idea that while Tywin is one hell of a battle commander and strategist, he's not so hot in one-on-one swordplay. I don't think he could have taken even one of the three, let alone all of them.

There are places in Dorne where an army can't go. I'm guessing the ToJ location is one of those, so they wouldn't need to worry about an army showing up. I'm not sure the Martells even knew they were there, and after Elia and her children were murdered they had bigger fish to fry than some Northern girl and her (supposed) bastard child.

The dialogue could be off because Ned has exaggerated the badassness of the Three Amigos in his mind, and the fever is adding to that. I've never had any trouble with the dialogue. We know very little about Hightower, Whent and Artie Dayne. Maybe they really talked like that.

By Tywin, I meant him and a sizeble force.

And just for the laughts I would imagine Tywin's sollution to dealing with the three guards: raise his hands and tell the archers and crossbowmen to shoot them... then send Clegane.

For the geography, we all need World of Ice and Fire.

Also, why were three of the best Kingsguards taking orders from a prince? Why weren't they protecting the king of Westeros at that time: Aerys? All their talk of vows and duty then seem kind of full of BS.

Also to Red Widdow: now we're talking! Well done!

Also one last thing: didn't Aerys have Varys as his spymaster... you know, Varys the one who knows almost everything that moves in Westeros.

[Ygrain]

Also, why were three of the best Kingsguards taking orders from a prince?

GRRM confirmed that KG take orders from the royal family, as well. So, if the king doesn't countermand a prince's order (or cannot reach the KG to do so), the prince's orders are perfectly valid.

Why weren't they protecting the king of Westeros at that time: Aerys?

That's why there are 7 KG - so that some may be assigned to other tasks while the rest are protecting the king. At no point, Aerys was without a KG.

All their talk of vows and duty then seem kind of full of BS.

Ned, however, says that the former KG were a shining example of what the KG were supposed to be and names Dayne as the best of the best. If their actions went against their vows, he wouldn't have held them in such high esteem.

Also one last thing: didn't Aerys have Varys as his spymaster... you know, Varys the one who knows almost everything that moves in Westeros.

He knows what his spies can tell him. A secluded, remote location known to only a faithful few means, no spies, no information.

[George48]

Ygrain, I must congratulate you for the good arguments you present about the role and functions of the Kingsguards.

I do however have one more question:

They had to reach the Tower of Joy. Let's suppose that it's a super secret location that is almost impossible to reach... you still have to reach it.

People would have noticed three members of the Kingsguard or the prince travelling with Lyanna. Varys would have known.

I think that he would have then went to Aerys and say "Guess what Rhaegar and three of your Kingsguards are doing?"

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Why people assume that three KG at ToJ are some Robots who have no mind/thinking/emotions of their own? Just because they were there doesnt mean { like some people say} there was a kung in the tower?

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

If ToJ was such secret location how the hell did Old Bull find it? Who told him? If it was Varys why he wouldnt tell Aeryswhen Targs were loosing battle after battle?

[Stannis's Lawyer]

If ToJ was such secret location how the hell did Old Bull find it? Who told him? If it was Varys why he wouldnt tell Aeryswhen Targs were loosing battle after battle?

It is speculated that Arthur Dayne, a Dornishman and Rhaegar's closest friend, told Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

Ygrain, I must congratulate you for the good arguments you present about the role and functions of the Kingsguards.

I do however have one more question:

They had to reach the Tower of Joy. Let's suppose that it's a super secret location that is almost impossible to reach... you still have to reach it.

People would have noticed three members of the Kingsguard or the prince travelling with Lyanna. Varys would have known.

I think that he would have then went to Aerys and say "Guess what Rhaegar and three of your Kingguards are doing?"

Well, thanks :-)

When Brandon sets off the shitstorm at KL, Aerys wants Rhaegar to turn up and explain himself, yet Rhaegar cannot be found. Somehow, Rhaegar, two KG (Hightower turned up later) and Lyanna escaped detection. Avoiding cities and villages, travelling off the roads, disguising themselves... there are options for travellers not to be noticed and recognized.

The question is how Hightower found ToJ but by the time he did, the Rebellion was long under way and there may have been some communication between ToJ and KL so he might have been given some directions, e.g. to go to Summerhall and one of the KG would escort him from there, which would still leave Varys in the dark about Rhaegar's location.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

By Tywin, I meant him and a sizeble force.

And just for the laughts I would imagine Tywin's sollution to dealing with the three guards: raise his hands and tell the archers and crossbowmen to shoot them... then send Clegane.

For the geography, we all need World of Ice and Fire.

Also, why were three of the best Kingsguards taking orders from a prince? Why weren't they protecting the king of Westeros at that time: Aerys? All their talk of vows and duty then seem kind of full of BS.

Also to Red Widdow: now we're talking! Well done!

Also one last thing: didn't Aerys have Varys as his spymaster... you know, Varys the one who knows almost everything that moves in Westeros.

True. Maybe TWOIAF will give us the location of the ToJ and surrounding terrain. I'm hoping it's in such a hard to reach spot that you couldn't get a sizable group in there.

A couple pages back I suggested that Rhaegar had pulled a super secret coup and was legally king, but was waiting to announce it until after the Rebellion was crushed. Maybe not likely, but...at least it would help explain the puzzling factors in the ToJ scenario.

Did Varys know everything in Westeros at that point? He was still kind of new to the area at that point, I think.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Why people assume that three KG at ToJ are some Robots who have no mind/thinking/emotions of their own? Just because they were there doesnt mean { like some people say} there was a kung in the tower?

It's not just that they were there, it's how they justify their being there and state they're upholding their vows despite Viserys being on Dragonstone without any Kingsguard protection.

True. Maybe TWOIAF will give us the location of the ToJ and surrounding terrain. I'm hoping it's in such a hard to reach spot that you couldn't get a sizable group in there.

A couple pages back I suggested that Rhaegar had pulled a super secret coup and was legally king, but was waiting to announce it until after the Rebellion was crushed. Maybe not likely, but...at least it would help explain the puzzling factors in the ToJ scenario.

Did Varys know everything in Westeros at that point? He was still kind of new to the area at that point, I think.

I'm not sure the idea of a "secret coup" makes much sense. Just conceptually a "secret coup" would require one to wield de facto power, would it not? How could Rhaegar become king without anyone knowing or recognizing him as king? Even if he did in some way, would it mean anything if no one recognized him? What would he be the king of? How could he secretly usurp his father who was already king?

[Ygrain]

I'm not sure the idea of a "secret coup" makes much sense. Just conceptually a "secret coup" would require one to wield de facto power, would it not? How could Rhaegar become king without anyone knowing or recognizing him as king? Even if he did in some way, would it mean anything if no one recognized him? What would he be the king of? How could he secretly usurp his father who was already king?

Besides, they explicitely proclaim their loyalty to Aerys, are they lying then?

[DanaKz]

Even if Rhaegar styled himself a king before leaving ToJ, Aegon was his heir, not a child that wasn't born. When these three guys stood still beside pregnant Lyanna, they didn't know it will be a boy. And when they found about Trident, their first move should be cend somebody to KG, to protect King Aegon.

If they received news after sack of KG, Gerold had to send one of them to Dragonstone: they swore to protect the king AND royal family.

Rhaella still had a fleet, Dorne didn't bend a knee yet, they still had a chance to save all of them.

And of course, if the boy was born for a while by Ned' arrival, they could send one of them with a boy away: king's life is more precious than dubious queen's contentment (queen is dubious, i mean, non contentment. though, contentment is dubious as well).

Yeah, I remember; "we don't flee" et cetera, but what the hell does it mean. Did they plan sit there, doing nothing but smelling blue roses, untill their king will be of age? Surely they planned to move somewhere.

Though, of course Rhaella crowned Viserys already, it could be such an awkward situation when these three loyal guys appeared at her door, brandishing dark-haired/grey eyed child, proclaiming he is legitemate son of rhaegar: ask some trees if you don't believe us.

Rhaella and Dragonstone's septons would be delighted for sure, Martells would be the happiest in the world, Oberyn especially :dunce:

P.S. We don't flee my ass. It's so cute they are so dramatic and full of themselves, speaking how everyone are failure and only three of them are the Seven's Gift to Chivalry of Westeros, when all war long they did nothing but watching mountains grow, while thousands of people were dying.

Yeah, Three Galahads of Seven Kingdom, most virtuous knights of all times... Suuure.

[juanml82]

And there is something else: notice a pattern in the names of Rhaegar's children? Aegon for Aegon the conqueror, Rhaenys for Aegon's sister... Rhaegar was probably expecting a girl, not a boy. Which means Rhaegar's child from Lyanna was not supposed to be the King under the Targaryen laws of succession anyways.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It's not just that they were there, it's how they justify their being there and state they're upholding their vows despite Viserys being on Dragonstone without any Kingsguard protection.

I'm not sure the idea of a "secret coup" makes much sense. Just conceptually a "secret coup" would require one to wield de facto power, would it not? How could Rhaegar become king without anyone knowing or recognizing him as king? Even if he did in some way, would it mean anything if no one recognized him? What would he be the king of? How could he secretly usurp his father who was already king?

Rhaegar specifically tells Jaime that he's going to be making changes after he returns from putting down the rebellion. If he's not secretly king already he at least considers himself a shoe-in to become king shortly. If he'd started the process before and everyone had agreed, the rebellion starting meant putting the announcement on hold. Rhaegar announcing he had deposed his father during a civil war would have been a huge mistake. Holding the information until after the rebellion was over makes far more sense.

And it's really the only reason I can think of for the KG staying at ToJ. That or Rhaegar ordered them to stay, but that still makes no sense unless they believe Rhaegar has the authority of a king.

Besides, they explicitely proclaim their loyalty to Aerys, are they lying then?

If they've heard about what happened in King's Landing then yes, because Aerys is dead and thus no longer king. That's they only way they can be protecting Jon as their king. It doesn't work otherwise. If Jon is a legitimate heir, and Aerys and Aegon are dead, Jon is king. If Aerys is still alive and they are pledging loyalty to him, why are they guarding Rhaegar's mistress in Dorne instead of protecting the king?

Whent, Hightower, and Dayne are the three best of the KG at this point. Do you think the paranoid Aerys ordered his three best knights to guard the Stark girl? This is the same king who sent his wife and younger son to Dragonstone but kept Rhaegar's wife and children in danger. If anything happened to Rhaegar, Aegon became Aerys' heir. If he could think clearly enough to send Rhaella and Viserys away, he would have realized he needed the top three knights in the realm guarding him.

Even if Rhaegar styled himself a king before leaving ToJ, Aegon was his heir, not a child that wasn't born. When these three guys stood still beside pregnant Lyanna, they didn't know it will be a boy. And when they found about Trident, their first move should be cend somebody to KG, to protect King Aegon.

If they received news after sack of KG, Gerold had to send one of them to Dragonstone: they swore to protect the king AND royal family.

Rhaella still had a fleet, Dorne didn't bend a knee yet, they still had a chance to save all of them.

And of course, if the boy was born for a while by Ned' arrival, they could send one of them with a boy away: king's life is more precious than dubious queen's contentment (queen is dubious, i mean, non contentment. though, contentment is dubious as well).

Yeah, I remember; "we don't flee" et cetera, but what the hell does it mean. Did they plan sit there, doing nothing but smelling blue roses, untill their king will be of age? Surely they planned to move somewhere.

Though, of course Rhaella crowned Viserys already, it could be such an awkward situation when these three loyal guys appeared at her door, brandishing dark-haired/grey eyed child, proclaiming he is legitemate son of rhaegar: ask some trees if you don't believe us.

Rhaella and Dragonstone's septons would be delighted for sure, Martells would be the happiest in the world, Oberyn especially :dunce:

P.S. We don't flee my ass. It's so cute they are so dramatic and full of themselves, speaking how everyone are failure and only three of them are the Seven's Gift to Chivalry of Westeros, when all war long they did nothing but watching mountains grow, while thousands of people were dying.

Yeah, Three Galahads of Seven Kingdom, most virtuous knights of all times... Suuure.

Aegon was dead as far as the three KG knew, and Rhaenys as well. That left Lyanna's unborn child as the only remaining heir of Rhaegar's line.

We don't know how long it was between Jon's birth and Ned's arrival. It could have been days, could have been hours. Or Lyanna could have been in labor when he arrived.

Do we know that Rhaella crowned Viserys?

Oberyn wouldn't blame a child for the sins of his father. He went after Tywin and Gregor, not their families. And after what happened to his sister, he would likely prefer a Targ over anyone Tywin was supporting.

The line about not fleeing is probably not verbatim. But it means that they will fight to the death to defend the people they are charged with protecting. No one will harm the royal family without going through them first. Even if the fight is hopeless, they will not yield. And actually Hightower did not spend the whole war in Dorne with Lyanna. He was sent by the king to get Rhaegar back to the capital. We don't know why he stayed.

The thing is that there are only two explanations for those particular three men to guard Lyanna over Aerys/Viserys etc: 1) Rhaegar was king, or they considered him as such without the formal change; 2) it's tied in with the prophecy. I don't see the KG invoking their vows for a prophecy.

[juanml82]

The thing is that there are only two explanations for those particular three men to guard Lyanna over Aerys/Viserys etc: 1) Rhaegar was king, or they considered him as such without the formal change; 2) it's tied in with the prophecy. I don't see the KG invoking their vows for a prophecy.

3) They weren't living up to their vows

[Chilli]

I still wonder if we're not missing some essential information. Like maybe Aerys knowing what was going on in the tower of joy. Because I cannot believe him allowing his best kingsguards staying there to protect some mistress unless he knew something about the prophecy. He married his sister because he knew the Prince that was promised would come from their line.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Rhaegar specifically tells Jaime that he's going to be making changes after he returns from putting down the rebellion. If he's not secretly king already he at least considers himself a shoe-in to become king shortly. If he'd started the process before and everyone had agreed, the rebellion starting meant putting the announcement on hold. Rhaegar announcing he had deposed his father during a civil war would have been a huge mistake. Holding the information until after the rebellion was over makes far more sense.

And it's really the only reason I can think of for the KG staying at ToJ. That or Rhaegar ordered them to stay, but that still makes no sense unless they believe Rhaegar has the authority of a king.

Again, how would Rhaegar secretly usurp his father? What authority is there that can possibly make Rhaegar the king without anyone else knowing? If it's a matter of Rhaegar declaring himself the king rather than his father, then I don't think Rhaegar being King of Fantasyland is going to mean much to anyone at all.

If there was some process in place that was going to replace Aerys with Rhaegar, why would they keep it a secret (and who is keeping it a secret? Who knows about it? Obviously someone has to and someone with power, otherwise it's completely meaningless) and not just remove Aerys from the throne as soon as he torches Rickard Stark? That would go quite a long way to defusing the Rebellion from the getgo

3) They weren't living up to their vows

Ned clearly thinks they were, and Ned knows a whole lot more about what happened than any of us do.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I still wonder if we're not missing some essential information. Like maybe Aerys knowing what was going on in the tower of joy. Because I cannot believe him allowing his best kingsguards staying there to protect some mistress unless he knew something about the prophecy. He married his sister because he knew the Prince that was promised would come from their line.

He married his sister because his father told him to do it. He might not even have believed the prophecy at the time of the wedding.

Again, how would Rhaegar secretly usurp his father? What authority is there that can possibly make Rhaegar the king without anyone else knowing? If it's a matter of Rhaegar declaring himself the king rather than his father, then I don't think Rhaegar being King of Fantasyland is going to mean much to anyone at all.

If there was some process in place that was going to replace Aerys with Rhaegar, why would they keep it a secret (and who is keeping it a secret? Who knows about it? Obviously someone has to and someone with power, otherwise it's completely meaningless) and not just remove Aerys from the throne as soon as he torches Rickard Stark? That would go quite a long way to defusing the Rebellion from the getgo

Ned clearly thinks they were, and Ned knows a whole lot more about what happened than any of us do.

That's one of the many things we don't know, and I'm hoping might be cleared up in TWoW or ADoS. Or maybe even TWOIAF.

Motivation for keeping it a secret is easy: Aerys is crazy and likes to burn people! You don't want him of all people to find out. Then once the rebellion breaks out it's never a good time to let that particular cat out of the bag.

If there is a process, in which Rhaegar was engaged, it's possible it didn't get finalized until after Rickard and Brandon Stark had been killed. Once Jon Arryn called his banners there wasn't time. That means war. Rhaegar would have had to announce that he was now king before he even knew that war was on. His timing just sucks all-around no matter which way this ends up having been.