Tamlin Stark Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Tze made a great post, as usual, in a cause for Night's Watch decline thread:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83503-nights-watch-causes-of-decline/page-2#entry4249770Why is she so smart and insightful. It makes me feel that I know nothing. :tantrum: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Jaehaerys comes across as one of those people who like to spend other people's money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 He was no fool though. Despite fucking up with the New Gift, he did see the Starks as a threat. It was not a coincidence imo that one of his daughters was bethroted to the Starks most important bannerman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share Posted November 19, 2014 He was no fool though. Despite fucking up with the New Gift, he did see the Starks as a threat. It was not a coincidence imo that one of his daughters was bethroted to the Starks most important bannerman. nvm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Who saw the Starks as a threat? Jaehaerys? Which one of his daughter was betrothed to a Manderly? Jaeherys' daughter, the one who died while racing drunk through the streets of KL was supposed to wed a Manderley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share Posted November 19, 2014 Jaeherys' daughter, the one who died while racing drunk through the streets of KL was supposed to wed a Manderley. I forgot about that one. Now I wonder if Jaehaerys was as benevolent as he seemed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanTheBold Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 What exactly made Viserys I better to rule than Rhaenys?Jaehaerys. The fist night law wasn't abolished not even on Dragonstone. But since the Targs broke the law who cares right?Not ignoring. The Targs claimed that they had Wardens to rule their own lands. Once they stole Starks' lands they prove to me that they were what I always thought that they were tyrants. Because there would be a precedent. Once the Queen would had been crowned because she was the rightful heir females could had been crowned to the future too.First things first; there is no real evidence that Rhaenyra's children were not Laenor's after all they had an Arryn Greatgrandfather. Even if someone claims that they were there would had Laena's daughters as their consorts. So no problem there. And at the end of the day even if they were bastards they were acknowledged by Laenor as his.you do know that being a warden of a given region is just war time title and has nothing to do with governance. also the world book and tpatq make it clear that after the first night was abolished dragon seeds continued to sprout not out of them still abiding the first night but simply young men sowing their wild oats. also you seem the under the impression that a government shouldn't ever be allow to take land from someone which simply isn't the case if that were true public hospitals wouldn't exist or highways parks and many other things.lastly you seem to have a lack of understanding of how feudal government works that land belong to the tagaryens the starks hold that land in their name and well their consent is good it's not entirely nessisary it would just be bad politics to take with out consent which is why they discussed it first and made concessions and what not for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Ignoring, of course, that governments do this regularly for civic purposes. Again, "eminent domain". Still tough, any goverment that made use of "eminent domain" to expropiate lands for public purposes has to compensate the owner of said lands.Stark got anything out of the deal? I don't recall anything.....wanting to marry a Targ to one of your bannermen seems like a shitty payment...So yeah, unless Stark got something out the deal, the seizure of the Gift was an abuse of power......specially when Aegon himself promised that they could keep their lands, rule and custom if they bended their knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanTheBold Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Still tough, any goverment that made use of "eminent domain" to expropiate lands for public purposes has to compensate the owner of said lands.Stark got anything out of the deal? I don't recall anything.....wanting to marry a Targ to one of your bannermen seems like a shitty payment...So yeah, unless Stark got something out the deal, the seizure of the Gift was an abuse of power......specially when Aegon himself promised that they could keep their lands, rule and custom if they bended their knees. I highly doubt the starks got nothing out of the deal other wise what would be the point in discussing it with them in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrick Eddon Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 I highly doubt the starks got nothing out of the deal other wise what would be the point in discussing it with them in the first place They got nothing out of the deal , they were cheated , and that's way they were angry at Jaeherys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 It's a bit silly to come up with a term like eminent domain in regards to a feudal realm like Westeros. Especially a realm like the Seven Kingdoms of the time, run by a royal house far superior in power to its bannermen (the dragons and all that). If Jaeherys wanted something it happened, unless he thought he couldn't get away with it. It's also not true that the Starks did not get anything in return. Jaeherys was the King who built the Kingsroad after all, that must have helped open up the North to trade. Furthermore, the Greyjoys at the time were loyal Targaryen bannermen, so the North did not have to watch its western coast as vigilant as before. I also think that Jaeherys did not have any malicious intent, I don't think he planned for the North to weaken. He genuinely thought that he was doing everyone in the North a favour. A big mistake, but a realistic one I think. It was a bit improbable that Jaeherys never made any mistakes at all. At first I thought TWOIAF would go even further with the perfect King allusion, especially when they mentioned him being a very good knight in his youth. Luckily, he did have some flaws. He doesn't appear to have been a very good father, particularly in regard to his daughters. One died in a drunken race and the other ended up as a brothelowner in Volanties. Trying to tie the knot between a Targaryen princess and a scion of House Manderley was probably the thing that pissed the Starks of the most. More than the creation of the New Gift. The Starks would eventually regain the lands, when the policy turns out to be ineffective. An allegiance with the Manderleys though, is far more treatening. Invading the North would be hellish, but with White Harbour's help, the chances of succes increase exponentially. Think about it. Control of White Harbor means you can ferry troops over the river far in land. It also makes supplying your troops a hell of a lot easier. White Harbor is also a very strong fortress, with lots of silver to boot. Add to that that Jaeherys was rather thight with the Faith (like two of his kids became septa's right) and the Manderleys were the only major power in the North to follow the Seven (they even have a title, shield of the faith IIRC). You can't blame the Starks to feel threatend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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