Have we misread Melisandre's vision in ADWD?

[cassidyaj]

Hitler sums it up

It seems like all the other visions in this chapter relate to Jon somehow, but this is the weird one... Perhaps it's about an attack at Eastwatch? But what about the dragon??

It also seems like the visions are in a sort of chronological order: the first refers to the dead rangers, the last is about the assassination attempt, and the second to last is about hardhome, the thing Jon was working on before the pink letter arrives.

But if it's in cronological order, the quote above and the one about BR and Bran don't make sense.. It's more logical to assume BR and Bran will interfere in Jon's life in a big way after his near-death experience. Before that, we only have strange dreams and Mormont's raven.

That cracked me up! But it seems so true...how can Melisandre continue to claim Stannis as AA when all she sees is about Jon. I keep wondering if she will begin to think she has gotten it wrong all along.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I'm liking it.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I'm so against Jon going into ghost and then going back to his body I hear it all the time. Whenever Jon wants Ghost he says Ghost to me, I believe this is what he's doing as he's being stabbed and the wolf will come save him not to mention Wun Wun who is there and pretty loyal to Jon.

[Poppa Chase]

It's all the nights watch towers. The shadow tower, Castle Black, Eastwatch. They all have towers and they are all next to a frozen sea that can collapse at any time.

[Isobel Harper]

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

Could also refer to the Golden Company coming ashore in the Stormlands. This doesn't directly affect Jon at present, but is likely to affect him indirectly in the future.

:agree:

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. ... Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king (Aegon will be the next king), your instrument.

Visions danced ("dancing griffins") before her, gold and scarlet (the Golden Company and the scarlet dragon, possibly Connington griffins), flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive ("dragons" and "griffins" are associated with dark/scary imagery - see below). She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood (weirwood trees - see below). Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths (the capture of Griffin's Roost and upcoming seige on Storm's End). Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist (greyscale), bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing (the Connington sigil). Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky (Targaryen dragon and Connington griffins).

Griffins and dragons and other dark imagery:

• I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos. ACoK, Arya X
• [E]laborate fountains filled every square, wrought in the shapes of griffins and dragons and manticores. ACoK, Daenerys II (Historically, manticores commonly symbolize the devil.)
• He raised his eyes to gaze up at the walls. In place of merlons, a thousand grotesques and gargoyles looked down on him, each different from all the others; wyverns, griffins, demons, manticores, minotaurs, basilisks, hellhounds, cockatrices, and a thousand queerer creatures sprouted from the castle's battlements as if they'd grown there. And the dragons were everywhere. ASoS, Davos V
• They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again..." "Dragons and darker things," said Leo. AFFC, Prologue
• "What, o' the queen's little pets?" Brown Ben's eyes crinkled in amusement. ... "Pets?" screeched Reznak. "Monsters, rather. Monsters that feed on children. We cannot—" ADwD, Daenerys V

Weirwood imagery: Bloodraven might be manipulating the vision. Also...

WoW sample chapter spoiler:

Summary of Arianne II notes that weirwoods have begun to grow again in the Rainwood.

In addition to predicting Aegon's landing, the vision might also forewarn of a greyscale epidemic that will begin with his arrival.

Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist (i.e greyscale)... Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

[evita mgfs]

Here's something I posted long ago - but please, I do not wish to FLAMED for offering up an opinion.

"The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen."

I parsed these lines for the significance of the wording. These words are smartly written, and I think they give some evidence, although I am just offering an opinion.

First, note that Martin employs a theatre motif with Mel, her glamors that disguise people in costume and Martin’s language denotes a staged show:

she heard the whispered name Jon Snow

• Whispering is associated with the theatre for an audience must be silent, and if they speak, their words should be whispers.
• Actors whisper back stage giving directions and preparing for their entrance, etc.

a fluttering curtain.

• Her flames provide stage lighting;
• When Mel gazes into the flames, she often sees visions. So, Martin compares the flames to stage curtains which open when the show begins, only in the case of Melisandre, her hungry flames expose several visions.

Appearing and disappearing
A magician makes things disappear and reappear:

a shadow half-seen behind

I immediately thought SHADE from Homer. Look at what the Wiki says:

• In literature and poetry, a shade (translating Greek σκιά Latin umbra) can be taken to mean the spirit or ghost of a dead person, residing in the underworld.
• The image of an underworld where the dead live in shadow is common to the Ancient Near East, in Biblical Hebrew expressed by the term tsalmaveth, literally "death-shadow" The Witch of Endor in the First Book of Samuel notably conjures the ghost (owb) of Samuel.
• Perhaps Mel’s vision, in this context, tells us that Jon Snow is DEAD when she sees him – he is already a shade. [she cannot see the death-shadow accurately]
• Her vision is speaking to the fact that Jon is wolf = wolf is Jon.

Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again

• Mel misinterprets her vision. Jon in death will move from JON to WOLF; then WOLF will move back to JON.
• Martin intimates this will be done magically – for the theatre terms indicate it is like a magic show – so abracadabra! Jon is dead. Jon is Ghost.
• In theatre, these would be interchangeable masks: Ghost returns Jon to Ghost.

Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark.

Mel sees how Jon died,[but she doesn't realize it] as well as the men who killed him. [she earlier offered to give him their names].

Since the entire context of this passage is a magic show in miniature, whose magic will “assist” Ghost in returning Jon back to his dead body?

The most logical choice is Ghost – with the help of his own brother Bran. Bran knows – the birds always mentioned in the rafters of the halls are keeping an eye on what’s going on.

Ghost = BR = Bran =CoF=Weirwood trees and their faces=the old gods.

After breaking down the wording here, it seems clearer now that she misinterpreted what she sees, as she has before.

[twikee]

It's all the nights watch towers. The shadow tower, Castle Black, Eastwatch. They all have towers and they are all next to a frozen sea that can collapse at any time.

True.

[addicted to snow]

Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again

 

 

• Mel misinterprets her vision. Jon in death will move from JON to WOLF; then WOLF will move back to JON.
• Martin intimates this will be done magically – for the theatre terms indicate it is like a magic show – so abracadabra! Jon is dead. Jon is Ghost.
• In theatre, these would be interchangeable masks: Ghost returns Jon to Ghost

I disagree... Mel Sees in her flames: Man-Wolf-Man... Not Jon-Wolf-Jon...

 

We know that Jon will take Human form again, but we do not know that it will be in the same body...