Have we misread Melisandre's vision in ADWD?

[Northernmonkey]

Jon did have a dream about Sam drowning, so again we have the whole potential "sea" = Ironborn motif

Wasn't that dream about Sam almost drowning in the canals of Braavos rather than the Ironborn?

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

To me this sounds like a battle between the others and the dragons. The dark tide could be the others. Rising from the depths could mean the same thing people say it does in Patchface's prophecies eg. rising from the dead. Shadows in the shape of skulls again could refer to the others. Obviously the end bit refers to the dragons. The only bit I don't get is the 'bodies locked together in lust'.

And obviously if it is a battle with the others then you can link that with AA like the other prophecies.

[Brightstar_]

Wasn't that dream about Sam almost drowning in the canals of Braavos rather than the Ironborn?

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

To me this sounds like a battle between the others and the dragons. The dark tide could be the others. Rising from the depths could mean the same thing people say it does in Patchface's prophecies eg. rising from the dead. Shadows in the shape of skulls again could refer to the others. Obviously the end bit refers to the dragons.

And obviously if it is a battle with the others then you can link that with AA like the other prophecies.

I do wonder what that part has to do with Others or Dragons though. Other-Sexytime?

[Ser Not Appearing]

If Azor Ahai is not a singular person, if Jon and Dany are somehow both AA or linked to AA... not all prophecies must align with Jon.

[Northernmonkey]

I do wonder what that part has to do with Others or Dragons though. Other-Sexytime?

Yeah I just edited my post to add that. I really don't know how it fits in. Maybe this all happens near a brothel, but that's a bit of a stretch.

[Taenqyrhae]

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

This is about the impending merman attack on Kings Landing being orchestrated by Varys, aka The Drowned God.

[Brightstar_]

This is about the impending merman attack on Kings Landing being orchestrated by Varys, aka The Drowned God.

Oh I see, it all makes sense now!

[H0X0]

Always saw the towers by the sea as Pyke. Tide being Euron.

[Taenqyrhae]

Always saw the towers by the sea as Pyke. Tide being Euron.

That's a good one, I also considered that it might mean one of the cities in the south that the Ironborn are attacking…now that I think about it, I remember something about a couple of towers by the sea that were guarding the river the Ironborn sailed up being taken by surprise by the Ironborn….because they came from an unexpected direction - out of the DEEP Sunset Sea.

[XSarellaX]

Bodies locked together in lust... What if what Mel is seeing isn't lust at all, just desperation? I don't know how to express what I'm thinking in English, but this painting came to mind

[Brightstar_]

Bodies locked together in lust... What if what Mel is seeing isn't lust at all, just desperation? I don't know how to express what I'm thinking in English, but this painting came to mind

I doubt we would get wrong, VISUAL information. GRRM has stated that POV's thoughts and opinions aren't to be taken as facts, but I always thought we could still rely on their observations.

The only instance I can think of where we would have gotten wrong visual information from a POV might be Jeyne's supposed good hips (Catelyn) vs narrow hips (Jaime), but wasn't that outed as a mistake on GGRM's part?

If we have to start discussing whether something a POV saw is actually correct discussion are never going to end lol.

[Northernmonkey]

I doubt we would get wrong, VISUAL information. GRRM has stated that POV's thoughts and opinions aren't to be taken as facts, but I always thought we could still rely on their observations.

The only instance I can think of where we would have gotten wrong visual information from a POV might be Jeyne's supposed good hips (Catelyn) vs narrow hips (Jaime), but wasn't that outed as a mistake on GGRM's part?

If we have to start discussing whether something a POV saw is actually correct discussion are never going to end lol.

But it was a prophecy and we know that Mel's visions tend to be metaphorical rather than visually accurate.

[Brightstar_]

But it was a prophecy and we know that Mel's visions tend to be metaphorical rather than visually accurate.

..No, they are metaphorical, sure, but that doesn't mean we actually get false information on what she's seeing. It means she might see something and interpret it wrong, but I don't think we'll ever be given completely wrong visual information, even in a dream or vision.

It's just up to us to make up our mind on what her visions mean, and be smart enough to discard her interpretations.

[Northernmonkey]

..No, they are metaphorical, sure, but that doesn't mean we actually get false information on what she's seeing. It means she might see something and interpret it wrong, but I don't think we'll ever be given completely wrong visual information, even in a dream or vision.

It's just up to us to make up our mind on what her visions mean, and be smart enough to discard her interpretations.

I meant that when she describes her visions in her POV she specifically says that they aren't always visually literal. So when she talks about the towers that she sees they could represent any towers.

Here's the quote explaining that:

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace

left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle

Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch,

my lord.”

[Brightstar_]

I meant that when she describes her visions in her POV she specifically says that they aren't always visually literal. So when she talks about the towers that she sees they could represent any towers.

Yes, sure they could be any towers, but a few posts earlier, you said that the "lust" part might actually be desperation. All I'm trying to say is that I highly doubt we'll ever get wrong visual info through a POV, even if it is a vision.

The meaning of the vision is supposed to be mysterious, and spark discussion, not the events oberved in it, if we can't even rely on what she saw to be true, there's no point in even having prophesies and visions in the story.

[Northernmonkey]

Yes, sure they could be any towers, but a few posts earlier, you said that the "lust" part might actually be desperation. All I'm trying to say is that I highly doubt we'll ever get wrong visual info through a POV, even if it is a vision.

The meaning of the vision is supposed to be mysterious, and spark discussion, not the events oberved in it, if we can't even rely on what she saw to be true, there's no point in even having prophesies and visions in the story.

I'm not saying that Mel doesn't see 'bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing' but that doesn't mean it's actually lots of people having sex. Maybe Mel isn't interpreting what she sees correctly.

Maybe it's a pile of dead and dying people, like in the Picasso painting that xSarellax linked to above.

Maybe it's an army of others, literally swarming over the crumbling towers.

[Brightstar_]

I'm not saying that Mel doesn't see 'bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing' but that doesn't mean it's actually lots of people having sex. Maybe Mel isn't interpreting what she sees correctly.

Maybe it's a pile of dead and dying people, like in the Picasso painting that xSarellax linked to above.

Maybe it's an army of others, literally swarming over the crumbling towers.

We're just talking next to each other.

What I'm saying is: If she observed it as lust, to me it's clear that it's lust and not desperation, for previously stated reasons.

What you are saying : The interpretation of that line is still unclear, and Mel might have it wrong.

With which I completely agree. Allthough I do find it hard to visualize dying people "locked together in LUST", but I'm sure we'll find out what was meant by that line eventually.

[Northernmonkey]

We're just talking next to each other.

Maybe we are, but I'll give it one more go.

Here's what she says about the towers - Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

So even though the towers in her vision don't look like Eastwatch, she still thinks that they represent Eastwatch. Meaning what Mel sees in her visions can represent something else.

So the 'bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing' could represent something else.

But you're right, I think we're straying from the point here.

[Brightstar_]

Maybe we are, but I'll give it one more go.

Here's what she says about the towers - Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

So even though the towers in her vision don't look like Eastwatch, she still thinks that they represent Eastwatch. Meaning what Mel sees in her visions can represent something else.

So the 'bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing' could represent something else.

But you're right, I think we're straying from the point here.

Yeah you really don't understand what I'm getting at :D

But I'll give it one more try, same as you did.

All information we are given during her vision is correct insofar as what it IS, not what it means. So when she sees "towers" during her vision, that means there will be towers involved, no disputing that part, but she ASSUMES that they are Eastwatch's towers, which is the part that is open to discussion, and where she might be wrong. The visual information given is correct, her interpretation might not be.

So when she sees "bodies locked in lust", all I'm saying is that they really are "locked in lust", I'm not saying that that can only mean one thing. The interpretation of that line is still open. But what she actually SAW isn't open for discussion.

But we both agree that the line might mean something entirely else, this is a rather pointless, nitty gritty discussion, I'll gladly admit.

[Northernmonkey]

But we both agree that the line might mean something entirely else, this is a rather pointless, nitty gritty discussion, I'll gladly admit.

Amen to that, let's call it a day :)

[complexphoenix]

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

Could also refer to the Golden Company coming ashore in the Stormlands. This doesn't directly affect Jon at present, but is likely to affect him indirectly in the future.