Have we misread Melisandre's vision in ADWD?

[sj4iy]

So, I was listening to Melisandre's chapter again, where she sees the vision. You know, I think we've all been missing something incredibly simple.

Let's see if I can explain- look at how it begins:

Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely Rhllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

She's specifically asking her god to see what awaits AAR...and that's exactly what she gets. All this time we have been looking at the line after that (that she wants to see her king), when we should have noticed that she actually asks "what awaits my king?" Look at the visions she sees afterwards:

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood.

The very first thing she sees is what awaits Jon next- the dead rangers, which are found soon after.

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

We don't know what this is yet, but if we work under this theory, it looks like the dragons will be involved, as well as towers by the sea (The Red Keep, maybe?) Perhaps this even foresees the Second Dance.

Another interpretation could be that the "sea" is the Wall, and the crumbling towers are the Night's Watch. It's obviously our most vague, so this one is the most difficult.

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

She doesn't see the girl this time, but we know she's seen her before...because it ALSO awaits Jon.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment ... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolfs face threw back his head and howled.

Bloodraven and Bran...they await Jon. We see that BR seems to be in Jon's dream later on and is trying to talk with him through the raven.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

This seems to be Hardhome to me...the Wildlings being attacked by the wights and the screaming caves and great cliff. We know that this is also something that Jon has to deal with in the future.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

And what else is awaiting Jon? The attack. His warging Ghost and coming back again.

What do you see, my lady? the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

We know that she has seen Jon more than once, because she has mentioned it.

But I think she is confused because she's asking what awaits AAR, and she's getting it. But she was shown what awaits Jon...and so were we.

So, any ideas? Do you guys think this could work? Any suggestions or interpretations?

[Minstral]

I sometimes like the idea that several interpretations can be true at the same time in these visions. The grey girl is obviously Alys Karstark, but can it be linked back to Lyanna Stark at all?

The mentioning of the skulls brings the Golden Company standard to my mind in a couple of these examples, though I am not sure how reliably the two can be linked in Melisandre's visions.

[Lord Ross]

If you think that what she sees is what awaits AAR. Then seeing Jon must mean that Jon is what awaits AAR.

[XSarellaX]

Hitler sums it up

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

It seems like all the other visions in this chapter relate to Jon somehow, but this is the weird one... Perhaps it's about an attack at Eastwatch? But what about the dragon??

It also seems like the visions are in a sort of chronological order: the first refers to the dead rangers, the last is about the assassination attempt, and the second to last is about hardhome, the thing Jon was working on before the pink letter arrives.

But if it's in cronological order, the quote above and the one about BR and Bran don't make sense.. It's more logical to assume BR and Bran will interfere in Jon's life in a big way after his near-death experience. Before that, we only have strange dreams and Mormont's raven.

[Ellfoy]

Hitler sums it up

This made my day ! That is the most awesome thing I have ever seen.

sj4iy, I've read a really interesting interpretation of Melissandre vision once who rejoined yours but I can't remember where.

Edit: maybe in this thread : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62605-melisandre-her-visions-and-our-interpretations/?p=3016390

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Personally I think Mel makes the mistake that she states in the beginning of that chapter when it comes to looking for visions.

Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent.

She mentions Stannis only at the beginning and her major worry seems to be about Jon in that chapter so her visions ends up being about what awaits Jon.

[sj4iy]

It seems like all the other visions in this chapter relate to Jon somehow, but this is the weird one... Perhaps it's about an attack at Eastwatch? But what about the dragon??

It also seems like the visions are in a sort of chronological order: the first refers to the dead rangers, the last is about the assassination attempt, and the second to last is about hardhome, the thing Jon was working on before the pink letter arrives.

But if it's in cronological order, the quote above and the one about BR and Bran don't make sense.. It's more logical to assume BR and Bran will interfere in Jon's life in a big way after his near-death experience. Before that, we only have strange dreams and Mormont's raven.

I don't necessarily think they are in chronological order, but I agree- that one is the difficult one to pinpoint.

[Feleron]

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

I always figured this was Meereen. You've got the ocean and the dragons. And when we're talking about lust it's usually Danny's chapters. If she is seeing Meereen and Danny's experiences there the shadows in the shape of skulls could be the harpies killing at night and the dark tide would be the all the armies and dangers that are surrounding the city.

[XSarellaX]

I always figured this was Meereen. You've got the ocean and the dragons. And when we're talking about lust it's usually Danny's chapters. If she is seeing Meereen and Danny's experiences there the shadows in the shape of skulls could be the harpies killing at night and the dark tide would be the all the armies and dangers that are surrounding the city.

If this is Meereen, then the "towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths" could be a forshadowing to the arrival of the ironborn... mayhaps they will bring destruction not only to Dany's enemies, but to the rest of the city as well? Victarion might think Dany would want him to kill all the slavers, including Hizdhar. Especially if they betray her during the battle and try to join Yuncai.

[Poppa Chase]

Just before Melisandre tells Jon about her vision of Arya, he sees her and thinks she's Ygritte, then he thinks "At night, all robes look grey" so the grey she sees may have nothing to do with the actual color of the cloak the girl wears.

[kimim]

Crackpot warning. I have a friend who loves the tarot. This reminds me of her Celtic Cross:

1. Present, heart of the matter: Mel asks flames to show what awaits her king, R'hllor's instrument. She expects Stannis, but sees things that have to do with Jon. So Jon is the heart of the matter, whether she knows it or not.

2. Immediate challenge Jon must deal with: Dead Rangers, "eyeless faces."

3. The foundation of the problem, presumably the foundation of what Jon faces: "towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths." This could be Hardholme, but it could be something older than that. It could also imply that what happened in Hardholme was not simply a massacre, but is foundational somehow.

4. Something Jon must get over: "Bodies locked together in lust." This could be Jon and Ygritte. That affair ended in death, and skulls are everywhere.

5. One possible outcome: "winged shadows." Maybe Dany's dragons? Maybe some other kind of dragon? Crows? Death?

6. Immediate future: The Grey Girl. Jon's need to protect his sister, his need for a family, and what all this does to his plans as LC.

7. Subconscious needs: The wooden face, boy howling at the moon. This is Bloodraven and Bran, warging. It would, again, imply Jon's connection to his family, but also his unconscious desire for something not fully human--warging, visions.

8. External influences: Human fires gradually going out: "the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained." The danger posed by the Others, by the approaching winter.

9. Hopes and fears: Jon Snow, warging: "Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again." Jon Snow both rejects and accepts his skinchanging.

10. Outcome: Skulls. Death. As my friend says whenever the death card pops up, "it's a great card! It means change, rebirth."

I don't believe her, but maybe GRRM does.

[Brightstar_]

I'm not sure what you're really asking.

Are you suggesting that her fires prove that Jon is AA, even if she herself is too stubborn to see it? Because that's already pretty much common knowledge (or one of the must used arguments in Jon's defense), which makes me think I'm missing your point.

[sj4iy]

I'm not sure what you're really asking.

Are you suggesting that her fires prove that Jon is AA, even if she herself is too stubborn to see it? Because that's already pretty much common knowledge (or one of the must used arguments in Jon's defense), which makes me think I'm missing your point.

Who, me?

I'm suggesting that we've been looking at the vision wrong...we've been looking at it like they were separate events, and that she was asking to see AAR, when instead we should have been looking at what she was REALLY asking- and that was "What awaits Azor Ahai?" The visions are then connected to what specifically awaits Jon- the dead rangers, Bloodraven, Hardhome, the Ides of Marsh, Jon warging Ghost. The only one that I can't place atm is the one about the towers by the sea, but I'm guessing that will make itself clear in time to come. She also mentions trying to find the girl again, because she had seen it before in another vision...and it was also something that awaits Jon. But I think the visions are connected by a specific theme, and that they aren't as scattered as they first seem.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I agree with all, except I'd bet real money that the towers by the sea are the Hightowers facing the Ironborn (the sea)

[sj4iy]

I agree with all, except I'd bet real money that the towers by the sea are the Hightowers facing the Ironborn (the sea)

Oooh, that's a good one I hadn't thought of before.

[Brightstar_]

Who, me?

I'm suggesting that we've been looking at the vision wrong...we've been looking at it like they were separate events, and that she was asking to see AAR, when instead we should have been looking at what she was REALLY asking- and that was "What awaits Azor Ahai?" The visions are then connected to what specifically awaits Jon- the dead rangers, Bloodraven, Hardhome, the Ides of Marsh, Jon warging Ghost. The only one that I can't place atm is the one about the towers by the sea, but I'm guessing that will make itself clear in time to come. She also mentions trying to find the girl again, because she had seen it before in another vision...and it was also something that awaits Jon. But I think the visions are connected by a specific theme, and that they aren't as scattered as they first seem.

Oh okay that makes much more sense.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

Oooh, that's a good one I hadn't thought of before.

How is Jon connected to the Hightowers facing the IB though?

[sj4iy]

Oh okay that makes much more sense.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

No problem :) I'm hoping it doesn't sound crackpot, lol.

How is Jon connected to the Hightowers facing the IB though?

Sam is in Oldtown right now- where Jon sent him.

[Brightstar_]

No problem :) I'm hoping it doesn't sound crackpot, lol.

Sam is in Oldtown right now- where Jon sent him.

Nah it doesn't at all. It's just something that follows natural when you know/ assume Jon is AAR in Mel's vision, that everything she sees is what awaits him. It's a nice catch to actually find textual evidence for it though.

On the Oldtown thing.

Still, all of the other vision's are much more directly involved with Jon. This would be the odd one out if it just concerned something happening to someone whom Jon cares for.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Nah it doesn't at all. It's just something that follows natural when you know/ assume Jon is AAR in Mel's vision, that everything she sees is what awaits him. It's a nice catch to actually find textual evidence for it though.

On the Oldtown thing.

Still, all of the other vision's are much more directly involved with Jon. This would be the odd one out if it just concerned something happening to someone whom Jon cares for.

Jon did have a dream about Sam drowning, so again we have the whole potential "sea" = Ironborn motif

[Brightstar_]

Jon did have a dream about Sam drowning, so again we have the whole potential "sea" = Ironborn motif

Yea the sea is evidenlty often used to refer to the Iron Born, I still think it's strange that Mel would have a vision concerning Oldtown and IB when asking to see what awaits AAR/Jon.