Melisandre, her visions, and our interpretations

[Fire_Kiss]

I've been re-reading choice sections of the books, and I've become increasingly interested in Mel and her visions. Upon the first read-throughs of the first four books, I thought she was a "bad guy". It seemed to me that she was a demon worshiper or something. On my last listen-through of the audiobooks, I've changed my tune.

Since the only time we get a chance to get into her head for real is in ADWD, that's where I started in my studies. I'm interested to hear your interpretations of her visions, and I'll share my own, too.

Note: I'm using the e-book versions, sorry that I don't have page numbers for you. However, there's only one chapter that she's a POV in, so it should be pretty easy for ya'll to find.

Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

• "Eyless faces" refers to the rangers Jon sent north who will have their heads placed on spikes by the gate by the wildlings. Her vision comes true later in the same chapter:
  

The spears were eight feet long and made of ash. The one on the left had a slight crook, but the other two were smooth and straight. At the top of each was impaled a severed head. Their beards were full of ice, and the falling snow had given them white hoods. Where their eyes had been, only empty sockets remained, black and bloody holes that stared down in silent accusation.

• "Towers by the sea": I'm not sure about this one. From what I can piece together, the "dark tide" that comes could refer to a number of things.
  
  • Metaphorically, it could point to The Great Other and his armies of others and wights attacking Eastwatch by the Sea. This Night's Watch fort obviously has towers, could this be an indication of their impending doom? Maybe.
    
  • But looking at the map of Beyond The Wall (I have all the maps saved to my computer, but you can find the copy I'm looking at here.) Hardhome is a ruined castle. According to the wiki, it was once a huge "town" that wildings occupied, but something terrible happened there long before Aegon even came to Westeros. I don't have enough information, but it could be that there were towers there-even if they are in ruins. Remember Cotter Pyke saying "Dead things in the wood...Dead things in the water"?
    

  [*]"Shadows in the shape of skulls" could really be anything. I don't know.

  [*]"great winged shadows" is probably refering to dragons, Dany's or otherwise. (I'm not in the "Winterfell Dragon" camp, but I acknowledge its existence.) I doubt the Others have dragons of any kind, but I'm open to that possibility, too.

-To be continued in the next post, as this is getting long(ish)

[Fire_Kiss]

Next, Mel sees this in her fires:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment ... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

• This is clearly Bran and Bloodraven. Interesting that Bloodraven's face is wooden.
  

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

• Could this refer to the openings of the cave system that Jon and Ygritte and the wildling raiders stayed in on their journey southward? Is this where Tourmond Giant's Bane is hiding his men?
  
  • This also lends substance to the argument that the Others and deep cold are connected.
    

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, lined in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it.

• We know Jon can warg into Ghost. Perhaps she is seeing that his future is uncertain? The way he disappears and reappears certainly could indicate that after his stabbing, his future is swaying back and forth between the shadow of death. I certainly infer from this that those who stabbed him are bound to die. (But I'm a Jon fan and I hope all who hurt him burn in all seven hells.)
  

At this point Mel gets interupted by Devan, so I will pause here and do some more analysis. Remember what she asked R'hllor to show her? Well, she asked for Stannis. But she also asked for her king. AND she asked for R'hllor's instrument.

Let's recap what she saw in response. Dragons. Bran and Bloodraven. Jon. She even remarks on this to herself! "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow." This seems to indicate that the Grand Plan of the Gods (AA, TPTWP, etc) intrinsicly involves the three aforementioned visions.

Another interesting passage, not actually a vison or prophecy, but still makes me wonder about the Wall and it's wards/spells/magic:

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three- quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

• Wow. So her magic gets stronger the longer she stays at the Wall? What about the Wall is so special? Does it have something to do with the fact that it was raised via magic?
  

[Fire Eater]

Next, Mel sees this in her fires:

• Could this refer to the openings of the cave system that Jon and Ygritte and the wildling raiders stayed in on their journey southward? Is this where Tourmond Giant's Bane is hiding his men?
  
  • This also lends substance to the argument that the Others and deep cold are connected.
    

It's a reference to Hardhome. Plus, I agree that she sees BR and Bran.

Plus, OP Hardhome isn't a castle, constructing a castle takes skilled and experienced workers and expertise which the wildlings don't have.

As for the towers, I really don't know, I don't think there is a Great Other either.

[Fire_Kiss]

Oh yes, I know towers require a lot of skill and knowledge. BUT this was waaay back in the day. I'm not saying there's enough evidence to point to towers, I'm just saying that there isn't enough evidence to point to no towers either.

And I'm not saying there is a Great Other except to say he is the mythological foil of R'hllor.

[DragonSpawn]

I'm afraid i'm still in the "I don't trust Mel" group! I always wondered if Melisandre is the Great Other - and the reason she is getting more powerful is because the wall is preserving her inner fire - in the same way the wall preserved maester Aemon... Mel told us early on that the Great Other hides his servant in plain sight... i don't think that she realises she is the Great Other! Really bugs me noone even asks her why the Great Other can't be named... would be the first question i would have asked if i was Jon Snow!

Jon: "So tell me about our enemy..."

Mel: "It is he who must not be named...."

Jon: "He can't be named? Well... i really need to know as we are about to face his armies..."

Mel: "He is the Great Other and must not be named"

Jon: "Ok... patience wearing thin now - you're not helping...can you at least tell me why he can't be named?"

Mel: "ummm.... errrr.... dragons.. err... stone and fire and smoke... errr..."

Jon: "hmmm... Stannis! Quick word if i may? ... You're Red Priest is a bit bloody evasive... you mind if i cut her head off? and if you need any convincing ... well... that sword she calls Lightbringer... it should be burning... "

And the one word i would use to describe Melisandre: "Cold" (as in.. heartless... uncaring....) - the one time she shows a little emotion is when she decides to keep Devan as a squire as Davos had suffered enough... sounds to me like a hostage for later on... and if she was to ask Davos where he thinks his son would be safest - i'm pretty sure he would say as far away from Mel as possible...

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

> I think the "shadows in the shape of skulls" are the re-animated dead (Wights / Zombies) ... then "turned to mist"... could be a reference to the Others ... linked with: "Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained." .... then the vision seems to move on "bodies locked together in lust, writhing, rolling and clawing..." Sound like a Dragon and a wolf getting it on (i hope) ... and then the blue skies at the end (happy ending) with all three dragons fighting together...

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, lined in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it.

This vision just highlights to me how utterly useless a reader Mel is... she's seen the happy ending in the flames with dragons circling over-head... yet she still seems to think she has to do something to make it happen... it embarrassing really.. she even sees that Jon will die - go into his wolf - and then go back to being a man... she wanted to see AA ... she knows he is born again... Rh'ollor shows her Jon dying and then being born again.... but does she see it? ... i have to say - there are some individuals on this forum who can read flames better than she can... and we haven't been doing it half as long! :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Good thread idea.

The "towers by the sea" could be ... Eastwatch, maybe? I think most of them are pretty straightforward (e.g. the killed rangers, Jon's warging, Bran and Bloodraven, etc.). The stone shadow beast is probably an eventual reveal. I don't know how many of you have experience reading Revelation, but the stone/winged beast(s) seems to have some parallelism to the "beast" in apocalyptic literature, aka the antichrist.

[Lord Varys]

Jon being both wolf and man could, at the first glimpse, be a only a sign of him being a warg. But I'm rather sure it has a temporal quality as well, indicating him being Ghost after his death, but becoming himself again later on.

Both Mel and Boroq, the other warg at Castle Black, should quickly realize what has happened after Jon's death. The difficult thing will be how to get him back into his dead body...

Jon as Azor Ahai is a nice possibility, but not only Stannis but Mance, too, are shown to her as 'snow'. So maybe this is nothing else but the snowstorm.

All signs and portents point towards Daenerys being Azor Ahai, there is little evidence that the Tower of Joy ends up being 'the place of smoke and salt'. Although, I guess, this might be a remote possibility. But it's quite clear that Jon is not going to wake dragons from stone.

The towers by the sea could be Eastwatch, but Mel herself doubts that (although she tells as much to both Jon and Selyse - that's why Selyse moves from Eastwatch to Castle Black), remembering Eastwatch and thinking that its towers looked differently. I suspected it might be a glimpse of Hardhome, but apparently there is nothing at Hardhome to live in besides the caves, so there should be no towers there, I assume.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon as Azor Ahai is a nice possibility, but not only Stannis but Mance, too, are shown to her as 'snow'. So maybe this is nothing else but the snowstorm.

The snow is, at least once, referred to as "Snow." As in, a surname and not literal snow.

All signs and portents point towards Daenerys being Azor Ahai, there is little evidence that the Tower of Joy ends up being 'the place of smoke and salt'. Although, I guess, this might be a remote possibility. But it's quite clear that Jon is not going to wake dragons from stone.

All the more reason to doubt it, or at least doubt the endgame (e.g. whether AA is actually heroic). It's rarely that simple in these stories and I don't think AA will be an exception. And there's the very real possibility that we're not dealing with literal dragons (hello, D&E stories).

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, well Daenerys Targaryen - Azor Ahai or no - will eradicate the slaver filth from Slaver's Bay now with fire and sword on Drogon's back. She will be a destroyer in the near future, but if she remains a force of destruction is by no means sure, at least in my opinion. Dany has no reason to punish the peoples of Westeros, nor would it make much sense for to go there to kill, maim, and destroy if the other slaver scum (the Qartheen and Volantenes) are that much closer.

As to the meanings of the dragons in ancient prophecy: Well, considering that there are real dragons out there now, I very much believe we should understand that tidbit literally. Dany, Aegon, or Jon are not Egg.

[Fire_Kiss]

I was hoping you'd show up, Apple Martini. :)

I think that's an interesting paralell you drew with Revalation's beast. Is it possible that the winged beast could be "the great other"? I dunno.

This whole "great other" thing seems pretty ambiguous. The only god we've seen any power from for sure is R'hllor, (unBeric, unCat, the visions from his followers) but I seriously have doubts as to his/her/its influence in day to day activities. I personally lean toward the "great other" as the head of the Others, and until I can know more about those guys, that's where I'll stand.

As far as the story line goes, i'd love to see Eastwatch overrun with others and wights. We know they're at hard home in force, and geographically it wouldn't be a stretch to move their army to Eastwatch.

Also, to the person who brought up that Selyse was warned by Melisandre to come from Eastwatch... Good theory! I couldn't figure out why she decided to come to Castle Black and bother Jon...except she wanted to exert her mustachioed queenlyness. ;) but it makes sense that Mel wouldn't want her at Eastwatch if the poo was about to hit the fan.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

Oh you're one of those types. Fair enough. Good day to you, then. I have no interest in a Dany flame war at the moment.

I think that's an interesting paralell you drew with Revalation's beast. Is it possible that the winged beast could be "the great other"? I dunno.

I don't even know if that's what he's going for or not. I'm leery though of taking fire's word that ice is the Big Bad or ice's word that fire is the Big Bad. I've said before that I think the key here is balance. It's not about one side overcoming the other.

[Faint]

As to "the towers by the sea," I'm guessing this is in reference to the Iron Islands or, less plausibly, Oldtown. As has been pointed out by many readers, and by Melisandre herself at that, she has seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. She specifically states that the vision does not look like those towers.

All signs and portents point towards Daenerys being Azor Ahai, there is little evidence that the Tower of Joy ends up being 'the place of smoke and salt'. Although, I guess, this might be a remote possibility. But it's quite clear that Jon is not going to wake dragons from stone.

How is the Tower of Joy relevant to this issue at all? The place of "smoke and salt" would be where he is returned to his body in TWoW, not where he was born.

[Loras]

As to "the towers by the sea," I'm guessing this is in reference to the Iron Islands or, less plausibly, Oldtown. As has been pointed out by many readers, and by Melisandre herself at that, she has seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. She specifically states that the vision does not look like those towers.

I agree. I think that the vision refers to either Euron and his corrupting influence or something that Damphair is trying to do back in the Isles. I would discount Oldtown, as surely Melisandre would be aware of Hightower, have mentioned a single tower or the beacon atop it.

[Faint]

I would discount Oldtown, as surely Melisandre would be aware of Hightower, have mentioned a single tower or the beacon atop it.

Which is why I said it was less plausible, although, I'm not sure how much we should credit to Melisandre's knowledge. It might very well be that she has only seen the Stormlands, Dragonstone and the Wall.

But, in any case, as you point out, Oldtown has a distinct tower that would be pointed out in any description of the vision.

That being so, Pyke is far and away the most likely location. I imagine Melisandre saw something like this.

I’m also in favor of interpreting the vision metaphorically. To me the vision is simply a representation of Euron being overthrown.

[tze]

Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths.

Mel later thinks to herself that she's been to Eastwatch, and the towers in her fire "were different", but handwaves that as being common with visions. (Heh. Hers, at least.) The Others come in darkness, but they've never been described as darkness: they're the "white shadows", "white mists", and even the term "White Walker" refers to white, not dark. Mel, who's never actually seen an Other, is the only person who thinks of them as "darkness". Everyone else associates them with "white".

I don't think this vision had anything to do with the Others at all. (I also don't think it was Oldtown---the Hightower is higher even than the Wall, a vision that included it would probably have included mention of a single tower looming over all the rest.) I think it was a vision of the fate of the Ten Towers of Harlaw (or easily Pyke). The greenseers are associated with the darkness of the earth, and we hear stories about them bringing down something called the "Hammer of the Waters" on bodies of land. Presumably GRRM tells us about this because we're going to see it in action before the series is finished, and Mel's vision shows the dark tide "rising from the depths", which sounds an awful lot like the Hammer.

We now have two powerful greenseers, (and who knows if other members of the Stark clan can follow Bran). The Ironborn basically keep slaves, which the Old Gods, whom the greenseers ultimately become, detest, and the image of the thralls toiling in the mines of the Iron Islands certainly evokes the image of the slaves toiling in the mines of ancient Valyria, and look at Valyria's fate: Valyria's power came from fire, and fire destroyed it in a single day. The Ironborn's power comes from water, and they're constantly bitching about how wonderful it is to drown. I think a greenseer is going to bring down the Hammer of the Waters on the Iron Islands and drown them all.

bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing.

It's the "clawing" part that gets me. Is this a vision of sex, as Mel seems to believe, or is it possibly a vision of rape?

Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist,

So are the skulls "transformed" into mist here? The "white mist" of the Others, perhaps? Or is the transformation of the skulls into mist referring to the destruction of those skulls (the defeat of the Golden Company, perhaps?)

[Ghost714]

The snow is, at least once, referred to as "Snow." As in, a surname and not literal snow.

All the more reason to doubt it, or at least doubt the endgame (e.g. whether AA is actually heroic). It's rarely that simple in these stories and I don't think AA will be an exception. And there's the very real possibility that we're not dealing with literal dragons (hello, D&E stories).

I also recently have thought along the lines of The Mystery Knight, when the dragon reffered to Egg(a Targaryen), and not an actual dragon, when thinking about Jon and the prophecy.

My theory was maybe the whole waking dragon from stone thing could be referring to Jon and the crypts beneath Winterfell. If Jon were to go to the cripts, specifically the statue of Lyanna(Jon's mother). Maybe Jon finds something there that reveals the truth of R+L=J. Thus a dragon waking from stone, because Jon learns that he is a Targaryen(a dragon), from the stone statue of Lyanna(and what ever evidence is around her statue).

I really like this Idea and I hope it is possible because it could resolve two things, the prophecy, and Jon's dreams about going into the cryptes beneath Winterfell. Also Jon is my favorite character, so that is a bonus of why I hope this theory is possible.

What do you think?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It never even occurred to me that the towers in the vision were Pyke, but it makes a lot of sense. I also like Tze's idea of greenseers using water to destroy the ironborn's base.

What do you think?

I don't know how it will all work out. I just have gut feelings that 1. if the story makes the solution seem obvious, the real solution is anything but, and 2. we're probably not dealing with 100% literalism here.

[Fire_Kiss]

I don't even know if that's what he's going for or not. I'm leery though of taking fire's word that ice is the Big Bad or ice's word that fire is the Big Bad. I've said before that I think the key here is balance. It's not about one side overcoming the other.

I like this as an underlying theme to most fantasy novels. At some point though, the author has to take sides. I'm not just talking about GRRM specifially, but these stories in general. So the others, while not philosophicaly "the big bad", in my mind, are the "other team", if that makes sense.

____

wow. I never even THOUGHT of the towers being the Iron Islands. This thread is turning out some great ideas!

[Faint]

I think the towers have to refer to one of the Iron Islands. They simply fit the vision too well. I favor Pyke simply because that is Euron's seat of power and Aeron is still in the story and still a POV for a reason. Just go back to Theon's chapters in ACoK describing Pyke and compare them to Melisandre's vision.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I like this as an underlying theme to most fantasy novels. At some point though, the author has to take sides. I'm not just talking about GRRM specifially, but these stories in general. So the others, while not philosophicaly "the big bad", in my mind, are the "other team", if that makes sense.

When there is someone in the story who embodies both sides equally, does that not give the author a way to not have to take one side over the other?

I think there are some surprises about the Others in the pipeline. I'll leave it at that.