Melisandre, her visions, and our interpretations

[Loras]

Aeron raising rebels against a godless man was foreshadowed throughout the iron born chapters in AFFC. The metaphor of the sea raising up is - in my opinion - the army of drowned men rising to tear him down. It is a shame we didn't get his chapter in 'Dance'.

[Heavy Horse]

my first thought was Pyke as the towers. To carry the idea a bit further, if Dany arrives via the Sunset Sea with or inplace of Victarion... His fleet as the black tide, her dragons as the winged shadows in the sky. Not sure how the "lusting bodies" come in. Unless Dany mates with Vic. Kraken and Dragon... eww! too literal?

Personally, I don't like any of the Greyjoys, they can all drown permamently. :cool4:

[Ghost714]

I like this as an underlying theme to most fantasy novels. At some point though, the author has to take sides. I'm not just talking about GRRM specifially, but these stories in general. So the others, while not philosophicaly "the big bad", in my mind, are the "other team", if that makes sense.

I agree with this, GRRM makes grey characters, most of them are not 100% evil or 100% good. However there are still characters that are considered overall as "bad guys". Just like there are characters that would be considered to be, overall, on the "good side".

So no I don't think the Others are 100% evil, but I believe they will still be bad guys overall. Just like I think Melisandre and the Red Priests are overall, good guys, when you look at the big picture. Yes Mel has burned people alive and stuff, but that to me is why I believe she fits in perfectly with GRRM's characters, even though Mel has done bad things, she is still on the good side in my book. Just like Arya has killed people, yet is still on the good side.

Side note, I don't know why people think Mel is so incompetent. Yes she has interpreted some flames wrong, but she has also gotten tons of them right. The whole girl in grey on a dying horse, fleeing a marriage... Honestly who could have known that was Alys Karstark? Nobody. It's not like the flames show the name of the person in neon letters stamped on to the heads of whom ever is in the vision. What were the odds of Alys Karstark fitting the bill of that vision? The sercumstances were very unlikely that the vision was pertaining to anyone other than Arya(fake Arya anyway). So I can't fault Mel for that one.

Yes Mel has been blinded to a few things because she truly believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai. I'm glad Mel isn't perfect, how boring would that be if Mel never made a mistake. So yes I will admit Mel isn't perfect, which I like, but that doesn't mean I believe she is incompetent, or fraudulent. We have seen the power Mel has with her shadow babies, and her correct visions, and how Mel made Orel's eagle burst into flames etc. I don't know how anyone could doubt her power or abilities, especially after we had a Melisandre POV in ADwD. We get to read Mel's thoughts, so we know what she is about, and the truth of her power being real.

[tze]

Side note, I don't know why people think Mel is so incompetent. Yes she has interpreted some flames wrong, but she has also gotten tons of them right. The whole girl in grey on a dying horse, fleeing a marriage... Honestly who could have known that was Alys Karstark? Nobody. It's not like the flames show the name of the person in neon letters stamped on to the heads of whom ever is in the vision. What were the odds of Alys Karstark fitting the bill of that vision?

Mistaking a 15 year old girl for an 11 year old girl seems pretty bizarre to me. Mel assumed Alys was Arya because she didn't know of any other girl who would flee her own wedding and seek Jon's help. If she actually knew some things about the North, its people and its culture, not to mention looked at a map and realized that someone coming to the Wall by a route that had Long Lake at her west, not her east, would logically not be coming from either Barrowton or Winterfell, but somewhere much farther to the east than "Arya" ever was---well, Mel might not have made that mistake.

For me, it's because Mel's interpretations are pretty incompetent. Not her visions themselves, but her interpretations of them, and the interpretations are the only thing that really matters in the grand scheme of things. When she describes what she's actually seeing, that description ends up being correct. But when she tries to interpret what she sees, she ends up being incredibly, incredibly wrong---yet she actually prides herself on her "special" accuracy in those interpretations. She sees a bunch of towers by the sea, then assumes it must be Eastwatch, even though she knows it doesn't look like Eastwatch. She sees a grey girl on a dying horse, coming to Jon while fleeing a marriage, and assumes only one girl in the entire North would do that. She simply doesn't have the knowledge base to properly interpret what she sees, yet she never acknowledges her own ignorance---she assumes that if she has a vision, she must already have the knowledge base to interpret it. And what's worse, she has other people (like Stannis and Selyse) relying on interpretations made in ignorance, and she's trying her best to get Jon to rely on her ignorant interpretations as well.

[Stark@heart]

I can see it being Pyke. IIRC from Theon's description they only have towers.

I've been reading some of GRRMs other work. Just finished DreamSongs Vol 1. Loved it and am deeply disturbed by some of the stories. They stick with you, like ASOIAF, only in a "Great! Now I'm gonna have nightmares" kind of way.

After reading his short stories, I really don't know what to expect anymore. It could be as simple as - Jon is the stone dragon take needs to be wakened - to something complete out there.

This is a fantasy series with a well established though little seen background of magic. GRRM could continue to play it low key, and keep the majority of the magic in the background and leave it to be only guessed about and speculated upon by those of us who love the story and the characters and the possibilities or he could let loose and really "wake the dragon". :drunk:

After Ned's beheading, Dany hatching dragons, the Red Wedding, Joff's death and Sansa escape.. We should all know better than to try to outdo GRRM.

I don't think he'll give us the Monkey Treatment but the story of Gray Alys is another matter. There is always a price and it is usually quite high.

I don't think Mel is living person anyone. She thinks she has a will of her own but if it is her red/blood magic/R powers keeping her "alive" in her own body ( we guess) then her reading of her visions could be tampered with. Mel thinks she is doing good but she might actually be making things worse.

If GRRM goes all out, then I could imagine Mel trying to make one of her visions come true by preforming some ritual using Crasters sons blood and all hell breaking loose. Not really her fault but brought about by her actions.

She is either weak willed or weak minded, either way she does not really understand the things she sees or the powers/fire she plays with.

[Turkey Jack]

Mel told us early on that the Great Other hides his servant in plain sight... i don't think that she realises she is the Great Other!

Varys is the prime agent hes pitching one faction against another until there is no force left to withstand the others.

The house of black and white is also part of it, and will try to kill Arya when they find out she is a warg (remnant of the children of the forest) - its obvious Arya needs an out and anyone named the Kindly Man must be pure evil.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I took the towers as 2 different things. 1. Eastwatch. this seems the most plausible if she is looking for place the others might come from. but as i was reading it i got the image of Dragonstone in my head.I'm not sure why, just a feeling.

[Fire_Kiss]

I didn't want to quote your whole post, because I'm on my phone and there's only so much editing that I can do on a small screen, but:

What you said about Mel not being fully alive makes a lot of sense. In her chapter, when Devon wakes her up and offers breakfast, she reminds herself that she has to eat to keep up appearances, but her Lord keeps her fully sustained.

If that's true: wow, she might be an unMel.

If that's false: wow, she's more deluded than I thought!

However, even though I knew it wasn't Arya ad the grey girl, I did think it was "Arya". I'm in the camp that Mel has true powers, but like all men, she misinterprets them to suit her own situation. She even mentions how "other priests" make that folly. *facepalm*

[Ghost714]

Mistaking a 15 year old girl for an 11 year old girl seems pretty bizarre to me. Mel assumed Alys was Arya because she didn't know of any other girl who would flee her own wedding and seek Jon's help. If she actually knew some things about the North, its people and its culture, not to mention looked at a map and realized that someone coming to the Wall by a route that had Long Lake at her west, not her east, would logically not be coming from either Barrowton or Winterfell, but somewhere much farther to the east than "Arya" ever was---well, Mel might not have made that mistake.

For me, it's because Mel's interpretations are pretty incompetent. Not her visions themselves, but her interpretations of them, and the interpretations are the only thing that really matters in the grand scheme of things. When she describes what she's actually seeing, that description ends up being correct. But when she tries to interpret what she sees, she ends up being incredibly, incredibly wrong---yet she actually prides herself on her "special" accuracy in those interpretations. She sees a bunch of towers by the sea, then assumes it must be Eastwatch, even though she knows it doesn't look like Eastwatch. She sees a grey girl on a dying horse, coming to Jon while fleeing a marriage, and assumes only one girl in the entire North would do that. She simply doesn't have the knowledge base to properly interpret what she sees, yet she never acknowledges her own ignorance---she assumes that if she has a vision, she must already have the knowledge base to interpret it. And what's worse, she has other people (like Stannis and Selyse) relying on interpretations made in ignorance, and she's trying her best to get Jon to rely on her ignorant interpretations as well.

If a girl is all wrapped up in a cloak, or cloaks, sitting on a horse, I guarantee you it wouldn't be all that easy to determine age. Knowing the people of the North has nothing to do with thinking another girl might be running from a marriage to Jon for help. Jon didnt even know why Alys would come to him of all people, until after Alys explained everything, so how in seven hells is Mel suppose to know that??? Furthermore, you make it sound like Mel thought it would be impossible for another girl to be fleeing a marriage in the North, when that wasn't just it. It was the likely hood of a girl fleeing a marriage for Jon's help, righ when Jon received a letter about Arya's marriage to Ramsey. Given the information In the flames, and the chances of that pertaining to anyone else, I don't see how anyone can fault Mel for that. Honestly what are the chances a different Northern girl would be running from a marriage, and seeking Jon's help at the same time as Arya????

You fault Mel for not knowing the geography of the North. Yet when Mel describes the vision to Mance Rayder(someone who knows the North pretty damn well), Mance never says anything about how someone would mot end up near Long Lake if coming from Winterfell(or that area). Mance believes it to be Arya coming from Winterfell(or that region), and Mance actually says "smart girl" for staying of such and such road etc... Also Mel couldn't have known where exactly "Arya" could be coming from, and for all Mel and Mance knew Arya was taking "the not so ideal route", in order to throw of anybody coming after her.

For you to say Mel would have known it was Alys if she knew more about the North and it's people, that to me is just down right silly. Mel told Jon about the vision, and Jon knows a hell of a lot about the North and it's people, and Jon never said...."no my lady based on your visions that is definitely Alys Karstark coming to me for help, not

my sister."

You said...

."She sees a grey girl on a dying horse, coming to Jon while fleeing a marriage, and assumes only one girl in the entire North would do that."

Really? Yeah because there are tons of girls that might be coming to Jon for help while fleeing a marriage, at the exact same time as Arya. When Mel told Jon the vision, Jon then said "damn this is the 10th time this year, this is always happening to me".....that's what Jon said right?

You said Mel never achnowledges her own ignorance, but Mel has said multiple times she is capable of reading the flames wrong. In Mel's situation all she can do is make an educated guess based off of what she knows. So is it really her fault for not knowing everything? Especially when she never claims to?

I don't think there is any proof that Mel is wrong when she said she is the best in her order at reading the flames. Considering the only Red Priests we read about other than Mel is Moqurro and Thoros, and we don't have near as many vision from those two, as we do with Mel. So who is to say Mel isn't the best? Yes Moqurro did get a handfull of visions right with Victarion, but those visions were not cryptic at all, especially when compared to the "cryptic-as-hell" visions Mel has had.

ADwD

Melisandre

Page #416

(Melisandre) "I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall."

(Jon) Eastwatch?

So right there Jon also automatically assumes Eastwatch.

To continue the quote..

"The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. Yes Eastwatch, my Lord"

Here Mel basically says that visions can be cryptic, this goes hand and hand with what we know with Jojen and his greendreams. (Jojen saw Bran and Rickon die, yet it was just two kids dressed like them. Jojen saw the sea washing over the walls of Winterfell, and that meant Theon and his Iron Borne etc)

My point is, Mel doesn't seem to be wrong when she thinks about visions being projected in strange ways.

So how can anyone fault Mel for thinking Eastwatch, when most of Mel's visions have been pertaining to the Wall, the Nights Watch, and the Others.

If those two towers do end up being on the Iron Islands, how could you say Mel got it wrong because she is ignorant, when all the other recent visions had nothing to do with the Iron Islands?

Do you honestly expect Mel to have a photographic memory of everything in Westeros?

[Ser Lepus]

However, even though I knew it wasn't Arya ad the grey girl, I did think it was "Arya". I'm in the camp that Mel has true powers, but like all men, she misinterprets them to suit her own situation. She even mentions how "other priests" make that folly. *facepalm*

I´m picturing R´hllor coming in person with two hand puppets representing Jon and Stannis and trying two make her understand who is the true Azor Ahai...

[Heavy Horse]

I´m picturing R´hllor coming in person with two hand puppets representing Jon and Stannis and trying two make her understand who is the true Azor Ahai...

Make sure to include "Ghost" with Jon and "Red Heart" on Stannis and a BIG RED ARROW with blinking lights pointing to AA so there is no mistake. :laugh:

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Make sure to include "Ghost" with Jon and "Red Heart" on Stannis and a BIG RED ARROW with blinking lights pointing to AA so there is no mistake. :laugh:

it still may confuse her :bang:

[Ser Lepus]

it still may confuse her :bang:

Yes...the red heart of puppet Stannis may make her believe that Stannis is Azor Ahai...

But we are being too hard on poor Melisandre; the poor girl probably went out to the world seeking Azor Ahai, and after seeking for so many years without finding him, she despertely attached herself to a man that had some small similarities to the prophecied one (even if she had to twist the meaning of the words in the prophecy)...and now she just can´t admit to herself how wrong she was...

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

But we are being too hard on poor Melisandre; the poor girl probably went out to the world seeking Azor Ahai, and after seeking for so many years without finding him, she despertely attached herself to a man that had some small similarities to the prophecied one (even if she had to twist the meaning of the words in the prophecy)...and now she just can´t admit to herself how wrong she was...

that's true. I hope she realizes that Jon is Azor Ahai and does whatever is necessary for him to be reborn.

[Ghost714]

that's true. I hope she realizes that Jon is Azor Ahai and does whatever is necessary for him to be reborn.

I actually think that there are some things towards the end of ADwD that may suggest Mel is starting to realize Jon is Azor Ahai.

I dont hold it against Mel for believing Stannis is Azor Ahai, because somethings do apply to him. I mean we the readers know all the characters and how the prophecy could apply to different people in the story, and we can't even for sure say who Azor Ahai is, so how can we hold it against Melisandre? Also I believe that Mel's fire's really did point towards Stannis as Azor Ahai, at first, as a way to get Mel to follow Stannis 100%. Mel backing Stannis all the way is what led Mel to Jon, the real Azor Ahai. I believe the flames pointed towards Stannis as Azor Ahai, because Stannis was a platform for Mel finding the real Azor Ahai. So I for one am glad Mel has believed Stannis to be Azor Ahai, without a doubt, this whole time, because that is what led Mel to Jon.

And I believe Mel will soon see all of this, and figure out that Stannis was just the gateway to Jon. So in a way Mel wasn't completely wrong, in my opinion, because that is what the flames told her, in order for her to get to Jon.

All visions are cryptic like that, even Jojen's greendreams come in strange forms, and it's hard to grasp the true meaning of any vision at first. So it's not just with Mel, most of the visions are cryptic in this story, and open for interpretation.

[Know Face Man]

I was just looking over Melisandres vision of Bloodraven and Bran, and right after it say...

" The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lovers hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past.

What could this mean?

We know Mel is older then she seems, but how old? Maybe old enough to be Bloodravens former lover and half sister Shiera Seastar. I believe she might be.

[Fire Eater]

Mel later thinks to herself that she's been to Eastwatch, and the towers in her fire "were different", but handwaves that as being common with visions. (Heh. Hers, at least.) The Others come in darkness, but they've never been described as darkness: they're the "white shadows", "white mists", and even the term "White Walker" refers to white, not dark. Mel, who's never actually seen an Other, is the only person who thinks of them as "darkness". Everyone else associates them with "white".

I don't think this vision had anything to do with the Others at all. (I also don't think it was Oldtown---the Hightower is higher even than the Wall, a vision that included it would probably have included mention of a single tower looming over all the rest.) I think it was a vision of the fate of the Ten Towers of Harlaw (or easily Pyke). The greenseers are associated with the darkness of the earth, and we hear stories about them bringing down something called the "Hammer of the Waters" on bodies of land. Presumably GRRM tells us about this because we're going to see it in action before the series is finished, and Mel's vision shows the dark tide "rising from the depths", which sounds an awful lot like the Hammer.

We now have two powerful greenseers, (and who knows if other members of the Stark clan can follow Bran). The Ironborn basically keep slaves, which the Old Gods, whom the greenseers ultimately become, detest, and the image of the thralls toiling in the mines of the Iron Islands certainly evokes the image of the slaves toiling in the mines of ancient Valyria, and look at Valyria's fate: Valyria's power came from fire, and fire destroyed it in a single day. The Ironborn's power comes from water, and they're constantly bitching about how wonderful it is to drown. I think a greenseer is going to bring down the Hammer of the Waters on the Iron Islands and drown them all.

I like this idea especially with the Valyrians and fire and Ironmen and water analogy. The towers could be Pyke, with the Hammer of the Waters giving a whole new meaning to the term the "drowned men." Aeron would take it as a sign that the Drowned God will not allow Euron to sit the Seastone Chair.

@ Know Face Man

Mel couldn't be Shiera Seastar, since Mel's name was Melony and she was sold at a slave auction, while Shiera's mother died birthing her and was raised by her father, Aegon the Unworthy or someone close to the Targs.

[DragonSpawn]

"The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lovers hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past.

lovely! so it's her time of the month? or is this a miscarriage like the one Dany had?

and what's with transforming her? definition: "To change markedly the appearance or form of"

sounds to me like Melisandre is a glamour...

"strange voices called to her from days long past" - stange voices being voices she no longer recognises... i don't think this necessarily has to be ages ago - but like Berric - she is forgetting her past and is left with only her purpose... for Berric it was being a "kings man"...

for Stoneheart it is "revenge" for Mel it is "making Stannis AA" ... i mean how reliable can her interpretations be if she has forgotten so much already? However, not being ancient doesn't mean that she isn't using magic or sacrafice to keep herself looking young or to fuel her glamour... so she is unlikely to be Sheira Seastar but i have considered the same thing - maybe a descendant?

My underlying issue with Mel is the fact she keeps lying to Stannis... but this thing about the bleeding...

Could it be that both Melisandre and Daenerys are both sacraficing their unborn children for some gain... e.g. Rhaego was killed then Dany was re-born in flame... Drogon set fire to Dany in the pits... but then she has her miscarriage...

is this fire-immunity... or is this r'hollor taking the lives of unborn children to give them life? i.e. only death can pay for life... Has Mel been shacking up with her followers so she can sacrafice her babies to r'hollor?

Also, shadows never leave the world - they only hide in darkness until the light comes again... If Stannis is the King with no shadow in Danys vision - how weird would it be if his shadow was the Great Other and his shadow killed him! lol!

[Ghost714]

lovely! so it's her time of the month? or is this a miscarriage like the one Dany had?

and what's with transforming her? definition: "To change markedly the appearance or form of"

sounds to me like Melisandre is a glamour...

"strange voices called to her from days long past" - stange voices being voices she no longer recognises... i don't think this necessarily has to be ages ago - but like Berric - she is forgetting her past and is left with only her purpose... for Berric it was being a "kings man"...

for Stoneheart it is "revenge" for Mel it is "making Stannis AA" ... i mean how reliable can her interpretations be if she has forgotten so much already? However, not being ancient doesn't mean that she isn't using magic or sacrafice to keep herself looking young or to fuel her glamour... so she is unlikely to be Sheira Seastar but i have considered the same thing - maybe a descendant?

My underlying issue with Mel is the fact she keeps lying to Stannis... but this thing about the bleeding...

Could it be that both Melisandre and Daenerys are both sacraficing their unborn children for some gain... e.g. Rhaego was killed then Dany was re-born in flame... Drogon set fire to Dany in the pits... but then she has her miscarriage...

is this fire-immunity... or is this r'hollor taking the lives of unborn children to give them life? i.e. only death can pay for life... Has Mel been shacking up with her followers so she can sacrafice her babies to r'hollor?

Also, shadows never leave the world - they only hide in darkness until the light comes again... If Stannis is the King with no shadow in Danys vision - how weird would it be if his shadow was the Great Other and his shadow killed him! lol!

This is completely off in my opinion, and frankly, your post is all over the place. It sounds like your just throwing out a bunch of crazy.

How can you compare Mel being "glamored" and her belief that Stannis is Azor Ahai, to Beric and Stoneheart?

Stoneheart and Beric were ressurected, that's why they are so fixed on one thing, if Melisandre has a glamored appearance, I don't know why that puts her in the same catagory as Beric and Stoneheart? Then your saying stuff about fire immunity, what does that even mean?

Then you said, could it be that Melisandre and Dany are sacrificing their unborn children for some gain? Seriously? There is absolutely nothing to suggest that? Like for real.

It's like your putting anybody associated with fire in the same catagory, Beric and Catelyn were ressurected by the kiss of fire, so they must be Melisandre's cousins. Dany and Mel both had blood coming down their legs so they must be sacrificing their children together..... Like this is how crazy what your saying sounds like.

"How reliable can Mel's information be if she has forgotten so much already".... What are you talking about???

I cant even keep going, this post is so crazy, and it makes no sense at all, so it's not even worth it to try and figure out what madness led you to believe what your posting. Like seriously what books are you reading?

[Faint]

I have long assumed that the vision of Stannis that Melisandre saw, and thus convinced her that he was Azor Ahai, was the same one that Daenerys was privy to during her venture in the House of the Undying.

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

The irony, of course, is that Melisandre herself is the one most responsible for Stannis resembling Azor Ahai. Indeed, if she had not existed at all, perhaps Stannis would have never come to be the man in that vision. A notion that is quite troubling, since it seemingly implies that Melisandre had no free will in the matter. But, then again, GRRM has already toyed with this idea in regard to Cersei and Daenerys, so I see no reason why it would not apply three times over.