Robb as King: Vainglorious Young Wolf or Tragic Hero?

[TheWanderer]

Actually there is proof.

In "World of ice and fire", Lord Tywin was invited to Tarbek hall for a feast of reconciliation, after Lord Tythos Lannister freed the defiant Lord Tarbek from the dungeons of Casterley Rock in exchange for 3 Lannister hostages.

Tywinn Lannister refused to attend the feast.

Out of anger, but he probably also considered that Lady Tarbek had already dared to take Lannisters as hostages ;)

That's a completely different situation though. Tywin is invited to feast with a rebellious lord, Robb is invited to feast with a loyal one.

Robb did not know much about Balon, except that he was Ironborn and had previously fought a bloody war against the Starks and their allies.

Actually, in his last rebellion Balon fought the Lannisters, not the North. The North fought back, as did every single other kingdom.

@The Wanderer 1) What better options?

Arianna Martell, Asha Greyjoy, someone high born in the Vale, etc. He could've saved himself for someone from the Westerlands or Reach too in order to make a truce smoother.

2) Winning battles isn't the same as winning the war. Strategic victories are far more important and he failed there.

You said: A king needs to win his own battles. I pointed out that he did. He did win strategic victories too. His failures were political, not strategic or tactical.

[Chaircat Meow]

That isn't what you said though. You said Robb's death wasn't because the story was stacked against him and he needed to die no matter what he did. Robb died because the story WAS stacked against him and he was needed to die no matter what he did.

One of the stranger exchanges I've had on the board. What are you saying, because GrrM wanted to write the story he did Robb had to die? Well no shit, we can all work that one out. That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking about how a character is presented by the author, and there's a question as to whether Robb fell like he did because of his own actions or whether he was just in an impossible (and contrived) situation.

[Pox Americana]

Yeeeaaaaaaahhhh...

The Jeyne marriage was an enormous blunder on Robb's part. Maybe for the right reasons, but that fact didn't help his cause. That sleight doesn't justify Lord Frey's regicide though. Executing Lord Karstark was a hasty decision too. There is no statute of limitations in Westoros, let Karstark retain his command and punish him for the murder of prisoners afterwards.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Actually, in his last rebellion Balon fought the Lannisters, not the North. The North fought back, as did every single other kingdom.

I don't see the difference. The Lannisters and Starks both fought to end the Greyjoy Rebellion. Robb shouldn't have assumed that Balon would be predisposed towards an alliance with his House

[Lee-Sensei]

1) Doran would never agree to the match. Balon and Asha would never agree to the match. Just any Highborn woman in the Vale isn't better than the Frey's and even if he want to make an alliance with him, would they go? Lysa said no and leaving to fight someone else's wars might mean losing their lands and titles for disobedience. Who in the Reach and the Westerlands? They're his enemies. They aren't going to agree to the match and unless you're talking about a Hightower, Redwyne, Tyrell or Lannister they aren't better than a Frey.

2) You say that as if politics has absolutely nothing to do with strategy. The point is, he failed. He went to war and he failed. Let's not pass off blame to Lysa. Robb made his own choices.

[naseridrl]

Could the Northmen take MC if its properly manned? Or would they need to go through the swamps with crannog help?

[Pox Americana]

Not from the South. Presumably, only the crannogmen can safely navigate a force around to the Northern side by land, which was what Robb's plan was before dying too soon.

I don't see the difference. The Lannisters and Starks both fought to end the Greyjoy Rebellion. Robb shouldn't have assumed that Balon would be predisposed towards an alliance with his House

Balon wanted independence. So did the North and Trident. It was a natural alliance. The Northerners had no navy, but the Ironborn did. The Ironborn don't fight land wars, but the Northerners do. Balon wore his ass for a hat and let his need for vengeance against the Starks, who by the way didn't kill his sons as he accuses them, get in the way of a completely practical alliance.

[Lord Damian]

Robb was popularly declared King by his bannermen, he was the heir apparent to the Riverlands as Edmure unmarried with no legit issue's heir was Cat. Daerion was vain and sent many innocent people to their deaths, the numbers including Dornish = 50-60k plus. All for Targaryen glory.
Robb was trying to save his family from Tyrants. There is a world of difference between Robb and the Young Dragon. I also think Robb and Jeyne were given love potion by lady Sybella. Otherwise, why have the connection as Maggy the Frog as a grandmother (she was famouse for making love potions).

[Ramsay Gimp]

Could the Northmen take MC if its properly manned? Or would they need to go through the swamps with crannog help?

Not without a hard fight. Robb vs Victarion at Moat Cailin would have been a bloodbath for both sides, but I'd give the edge to Robb simply because he tends to excel at that type of daring surprise attack. Still, the Northman were damn lucky Balon died and the Ironborn basically forgot about the North

[Ramsay Gimp]

Robb was trying to save his family from Tyrants. There is a world of difference between Robb and the Young Dragon. I also think Robb and Jeyne were given love potion by lady Sybella. Otherwise, why have the connection as Maggy the Frog as a grandmother (she was famouse for making love potions).

It's been confirmed that Tywin and Lady Sybill planned the affair in advance. Kind of stretches plausibility, but there you go

Love potion can't force you to marry someone though. Not many people blame Robb for having sex with Jeyne, they blame him for making her his Queen

[TheWanderer]

I don't see the difference. The Lannisters and Starks both fought to end the Greyjoy Rebellion. Robb shouldn't have assumed that Balon would be predisposed towards an alliance with his House

The difference is that Greyjoy attacked the Lannisters. He didn't attack the North.

1) Doran would never agree to the match. Balon and Asha would never agree to the match.

They might, or at least Robb has no reason to believe that couldn't be on the table. At the point he makes his deal with Walder Robb is the most eligible bachelor in Westeros, certainly an option for Doran and Balon to consider. Marrying Asha would be an excellent way to cement an alliance between the North and the Iron Islands, while marrying Arrianna would allow the Martells to get some revenge against the Lannisters. Besides which, it not being likely doesn't mean its worse. Either match is far and away better than a Frey.

Just any Highborn woman in the Vale isn't better than the Frey's and even if he want to make an alliance with him, would they go? Lysa said no and leaving to fight someone else's wars might mean losing their lands and titles for disobedience.

I didn't mean just any highborn woman, though most would be better than the Freys, I was thinking more like Bronze Yohn's daughter or someone of similar standing. This marriage would be quite useful in convincing the Vale to declare in his favour and that would drastically alter the war. Lysa hadn't said boo either way and many of her Lords were quite open to the idea, with a little more pressure I could easily see a number of them joining Robb's cause. If a significant portion of them do, then there's not a whole lot Lysa could do about it, even if she wanted to.

Who in the Reach and the Westerlands? They're his enemies.

That's the point. You make truces with your enemies. A not uncommon way of sealing truces in those days was with marriages.

2) You say that as if politics has absolutely nothing to do with strategy. The point is, he failed. He went to war and he failed. Let's not pass off blame to Lysa. Robb made his own choices.

What are you talking about?

1) Politics has nothing to do with the field of battle. It has very little to do with military strategy.

2) I've never said anything about Lysa.

3) You said "a King should win his own battles", he did. There's no way around the fact that Robb never lost a battle.

4) Robb didn't make the choice to crown himself. That choice fundamentally altered the options available to him, ultimately limiting them severely. Limiting them so severely in fact that they effectively hamstrung his ability to negotiate with other parties, something that lead directly to his death.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The difference is that Greyjoy attacked the Lannisters. He didn't attack the North.

Because the Lannisters had a fleet which could threaten the Iron Islands, the North didn't. Not an indication of what Balon will do 10 years later

[TheWanderer]

Because the Lannisters had a fleet which could threaten the Iron Islands, the North didn't. Not an indication of what Balon will do 10 years later

You said that Balon "had previously fought a bloody war against the Starks". That's not really accurate, since his previous war was against the Crown and fought directly against the Lannisters. You seemed to be suggesting that his previous war with the Starks indicated that he would move against them again. Now I'm not really sure what you're trying to suggest.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

What are you talking about?

1) Politics has nothing to do with the field of battle. It has very little to do with military strategy.

2) I've never said anything about Lysa.

3) You said "a King should win his own battles", he did. There's no way around the fact that Robb never lost a battle.

4) Robb didn't make the choice to crown himself. That choice fundamentally altered the options available to him, ultimately limiting them severely. Limiting them so severely in fact that they effectively hamstrung his ability to negotiate with other parties, something that lead directly to his death.

That is not true at all. Politics has everything to do with military strategy and battles. As Von Clausewitz said, warfare is just politics conducted through other means. In a medieval society like ASOIAF, this becomes even more true.

The entire reason for two of Robb's three victories was that he managed to (politically) convince the Freys to open their bridge gates and switch sides, and thus allow him to surprise the Lannister army at Riverrun. Doing so otherwise would have been impossible, no matter how good he was at telling people to form up in rectangles during field battles. His reason for invading and sacking the Westerlands was also political in nature. He knew that if succesful he would force Tywin to come home and fight him there, not because he was actually conquering the country (because he couldn't threaten either Lannisport or Casterly Rock) but because he would make Tywin look weak to his vassals, which he couldn't afford.

Saying that Robb never lost a battle is also misleading. He did suffer big defeats at the Green Fork, Duskendale etc. If you don't count those because Robb wasn't leading there, then Tywin never lost a battle either.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) That's highly debatable. There are at least 4 heirs to Great Houses around equal to or more powerful than the North. Robb marrying Balons daughter isn't going to happen. Balon is known to hate the Starks. Those two are completely off the table for him.

2) "Most would be better than the Frey's." Nope. There are two Houses in the Vale besides the Arryn's that are more powerful than the Frey's. The Graftons and the Royces. The rest aren't better than the Frey's. They aren't going to run off to fight Robb's war against the orders of their liege.

3) And it's not going to happen. So again, the Frey's were his best options at the time.

4) Which shows what you know. General Clausewitz says "war is politics by other means".

5) Sorry that wasn't a response to you.

6) Okay. A King should win his own wars.

7) Robb could have refused. Or is he just a puppet?

[Ramsay Gimp]

You said that Balon "had previously fought a bloody war against the Starks". That's not really accurate, since his previous war was against the Crown and fought directly against the Lannisters. You seemed to be suggesting that his previous war with the Starks indicated that he would move against them again. Now I'm not really sure what you're trying to suggest.

It is indeed accurate. Balon fought a bloody war against the Starks, and the crown, and the Lannisters, and the Riverlands. Since House Stark was part of the coalition that defeated the Greyjoys, Robb should have tread more carefully.

What do you mean "fought directly"?

[Robb_Warged]

It's been confirmed that Tywin and Lady Sybill planned the affair in advance. Kind of stretches plausibility, but there you go

Love potion can't force you to marry someone though. Not many people blame Robb for having sex with Jeyne, they blame him for making her his Queen

Anyone who has ever truly been in love with someone and the feeling was mutual knows it makes you do things out of character (even illogical things), and the relationship becomes a very high priority to the pair. If a love potion was used on Robb and Jeyne of course he would marry her despite the slight and betrayal to the Frey's ("we will make it through this somehow, there is always a way"). When you love someone (I'm not talking about infatuation, I'm not talking about lust) and they love you back, that is such a powerful connection that could easily cause someone to make a choice they might regret in hindsight

Rhaegar's actions with Lyanna are an example of another doomed love in this series where the desire for two to be together was illogical to pursue but the relationship was worth pursuing for the two in love (assuming the Rhaegar and Lyanna relationship theory is true)

[German]

And an enemy army of a few thousand is going to spell defeat for king Robb is it?

If you have only 12,000 war weary soldiers then yes it will in fact spell doom for your army. Also the fact that they are a naval force that can strike anywhere puts Robb at a huge disadvantage as he will have to release all his lords with coastal territories to defend their kingdoms as he will not possibly be able to be everywhere along the coast at once.

[German]

A naval landing operation is a horror scenario for the one who does it. The Redwynes have 100 ships, so lets say the crown can mobilize 200 ships total. They are not gonna be able to load much people on it, and in his jomeland Robb is gonna sit on 20000 men minimum, probably more than 30000- 40000 if he calls them all, which he will when the threat of an invasion comes up. No way any army that the crown can transport on ship can defeat that. If they are caught while landing,even just 10000 will be enough to defeat everything the crown could possibly bring over the sea.

Actually the Redwynes have 200 warships and 5 times as many merchant vessels. If you cram those ships chock full I would say 25-30 soldiers a ship that makes 25,000 soldiers on the Redwyne fleet alone. If Robb were to be stupid enough to gather every able bodied Northman into one army (note how the Northern economy was suffering when he only took 1/5 of the soldiers) then the Redwynes will be able to raid up and down the coast attacking anywhere they bloody well please and then escape before Robbs cumbersome 40,000 footsoldiers can arrive. If Robb splits his army to defend all his massive lands then the 25,000 Tyrell/Lannnisters can defeat them in detail. Fact is you cannot defend the North from an attack from the Sea its just too big.

[German]

Look at these bannerman after tywins death, gone leaving the heir to her fate and look at the stark bannerman all loving Robb and eddard and fighting to put beyond weak Starks back in control Exocet for the boltons and lady Dustin

False I hate it when people say this the Flints, Ryswells, Cerwyns,Talharts and half the Umbers declared for Roose Bolton and have yet to show anything other than loyalty to him. In case your wondering thats half of the major northern houses.