The Riverlands Web V.4

[Booknerd2]

I too liked your little pet theory. And this is all great. It is so hard to see how this could pan out. I have no idea.

Some of the things I have read on LS, talk about her fascination with the crown. She is ''studying it, and stroking the blades'' when she meets with Brienne. Some speculate that she wants to 'crown' someone, maybe Jon, as per Robb's will, or a more popular choice, Sansa ? I'm not convinced either way, it may well be a sombre memory, but thought it worth a mention.

Another thing that I've seen mentioned, is the Old God's connection. Once Beric was reincarnated with the ''fire'' of the Red God, he started to take on a persona of a Northern Old God [ the parallel to BR ] ''Ice'' ? He then passed on whatever he was / turning into onto Cat.

After that it was wild speculation, but again something I thought interesting. Hard to pin down. :dunno:

Yeah. She is so hard to figure out…on purpose, of course, which makes me think it, ok, keeps it interesting and mysterious, and hightens the tension of many cliffhangers like Jaime and Brienne, and future events too. And honestly it is probably tied to her eventual end in some way possibly.

Beric was losing memories and some of himself, but he was still functioning, still felt things, etc., and Cat was a different situation being days dead, and also, the process was different, and there are still things I don't understand regarding that.

There must be a difference between:

- Thoros reviving Beric, not giving up any percentage of himself, nor was he ever revived personally by anyone. (He was "whole")

-With Cat being several days dead, being revived by a person not whole himself, and it was questionable how may times he was revived, and he sacrifices his life, or what was left of it, to her.

Now we haven't discussed this much, and it sounds a bit Lily Potter, but also with things mentioned in this series, but I wonder just in general if there is anything even a little special about Beric having made the self-less choice to give up his life, especially if we are to look at what happened with Dany/Mirri. Is that even magic in and if itself, outside of the Red God?

Or am I getting too Potter here? LOL!

Very speculative and not enough info.

Rob's crown was a teaser. And I have to check because when we covered LS in another version, I know people brought up great points. Alluding to LS testing the sharpness of his crown to thoughts she had previously of her son, for example, and other stuff. I have to go back and look as a refresher.

But I think a big test is coming up. Possibly with Blackfish - seeing a loved one. Which she hasn't yet. Or even someone she hates with a passion - the supposed Jaime arrival.

Two extremes. I am so curious to how she reacts and if we find out more about her "state."

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1.] Now we haven't discussed this much, and it sounds a bit Lily Potter, but also with things mentioned in this series, but I wonder just in general if there is anything even a little special about Beric having made the self-less choice to give up his life, especially if we are to look at what happened with Dany/Mirri. Is that even magic in and if itself, outside of the Red God?

Or am I getting too Potter here? LOL!

Very speculative and not enough info.

2.] Rob's crown was a teaser. And I have to check because when we covered LS in another version, I know people brought up great points. Alluding to LS testing the sharpness of his crown to thoughts she had previously of her son, for example, and other stuff. I have to go back and look as a refresher.

3.] But I think a big test is coming up. Possibly with Blackfish - seeing a loved one. Which she hasn't yet. Or even someone she hates with a passion - the supposed Jaime arrival.

1.] Ha ! It's too easy to slip into 'thought overdrive', and this inevitably leads to slightly cracking the pottery in one way or another. But if you can't share ideas here, where else ? And for the record, I think it's a fair thought.

My wild speculation was along the same lines... ish. Could Beric have been influenced by Bloodraven / Old God's ? [ the parallel+the Weirwood throne ] Has he passed it onto LS ? Did Thoros lose his power as the Old God's took over ?

However, as you've said, 'very speculative and not enough info', and could be opening a rather large can of worms. [ of course, all collected from the eye sockets of corpse like entities on Planetos. ] :P

2.] Yeah, we don't have much on the crown, just the staring and stroking. I too have seen some of the discussion regarding 'testing the sharpness of the 9 blades on the crown' and also a possible link between the nine swords on the crown and nine bats in the sigil of House Whent. Some cool discussion, but so little to go on. :dunno:

3.] Agreed. Blackfish is so hard to call, I can actually see him as an option to end this LS horror. A sort of passing of the baton for any mission onto someone she trusts explicitly. Although traumatic, I don't think BF would want her to carry on like that, or indeed, see any of her kids. But then again, is that a bit anticlimactic ? Really, I have no clue.

And as for the expected arrival of Jaime, you're right, a big test. It does seem that Jaime is walking into a whole lot of trouble. :worried: [ sure he'll be ok...... I hope ] :D

[Booknerd2]

1.] Ha ! It's too easy to slip into 'thought overdrive', and this inevitably leads to slightly cracking the pottery in one way or another. But if you can't share ideas here, where else ? And for the record, I think it's a fair thought.

My wild speculation was along the same lines... ish. Could Beric have been influenced by Bloodraven / Old God's ? [ the parallel+the Weirwood throne ] Has he passed it onto LS ? Did Thoros lose his power as the Old God's took over ?

However, as you've said, 'very speculative and not enough info', and could be opening a rather large can of worms. [ of course, all collected from the eye sockets of corpse like entities on Planetos. ] :P

2.] Yeah, we don't have much on the crown, just the staring and stroking. I too have seen some of the discussion regarding 'testing the sharpness of the 9 blades on the crown' and also a possible link between the nine swords on the crown and nine bats in the sigil of House Whent. Some cool discussion, but so little to go on. :dunno:

3.] Agreed. Blackfish is so hard to call, I can actually see him as an option to end this LS horror. A sort of passing of the baton for any mission onto someone she trusts explicitly. Although traumatic, I don't think BF would want her to carry on like that, or indeed, see any of her kids. But then again, is that a bit anticlimactic ? Really, I have no clue.

And as for the expected arrival of Jaime, you're right, a big test. It does seem that Jaime is walking into a whole lot of trouble. :worried: [ sure he'll be ok...... I hope ] :D

I have a lot to look into. I never looked into the old gods with this whole LS/Beric thing.

The bold: I am going to do a pq on Thoros. Really, I never mentioned it but I think Beric is going to need one too. But that has to be looked into. Why does the sign say "Out of Order" on Thoros' fires? To be honest, I thought he even might be bs-ing as a tactic against not assisting LS, or something else. I even wondered a long time ago that if he could access it, in a Gendry post, that he might even know already if he could. But that is different. I still think he might surmise due to looks, and that when Brienne coughs it up eventually, he may be the least surprised there. But Lem can be looked at too for other reasons. The author pointedly let the readers know he can't access it. Why?

And the crown. That is the only time I can think of that we see an in-LS's-face/in-our-face moment that puts her in contact with something of her children/a loved one directly. And it is vague on purpose. For some reason yet to unfold, I don't think he wants us to know too much about her "state," but I think we get more next book. I can't say I see her until the end of 7. Honestly, I think LS is wrapped by the end of 6.

And eventually we can tackle that 6 Prologue info/speculation, because I think he is not wasting any time, and diving right in, even before chapter 1 with that whole BWB thing, maybe. That Jeyne thing has me intrigued. I think that prologue may have some Webbers showing up.

[Frey Pie]

Just read the first page so far. Really good stuff people, love the catch on Greenbeard being the tyroshi Sellsword who joins Robb. There's also kyle condons 600 men so there's a sizeable pool of men who have been unmentioned for a while...

As for harwin I think he's a strong call for the hooded man. But with the talk of the remaining winterfell guards I hope we get a scene where the Twins are taken and Walder is confronted. The northmen push to the front and justice is served to the weasel. Goosebumps scene

[Frey Pie]

Well, Cersei mentions she is a like a steward's whelp, so either she does not know all her Northern House history, or she doesn't care.

I would love to know if there are many more Pooles, with Vayon now gone, or is Jeyne the last?

Also, on the wiki, I am confused. It says that the overlords of House Poole are the Boltons. Are they that tiny a House that they were always specifically under House Botlon, with previously the Starks being the major Wardens of the North before crap went down?

Or does it mean that Jeyne is the last, or there are other Poole's and due to the ousting/supposed deaths of Starks, that the Boltons would now be the primary Northern house like the Starks were?

Not sure how that works.

All northern houses are currently under the rule of house Bolton. Poole and Cassel are two known houses directly serving at and in Winterfell

Jayne is very much a noble. It's worth remembering that the Tyrell's were originally stewards under the Gardener kings. Also remember the stewards of gondor? They may not be very powerful but actually quite influential houses being so close to the ruling families

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Just read the first page so far. Really good stuff people, love the catch on Greenbeard being the tyroshi Sellsword who joins Robb. There's also kyle condons 600 men so there's a sizeable pool of men who have been unmentioned for a while...

As for harwin I think he's a strong call for the hooded man. But with the talk of the remaining winterfell guards I hope we get a scene where the Twins are taken and Walder is confronted. The northmen push to the front and justice is served to the weasel. Goosebumps scene

Thanks Frey Pie. Nice point about Condon and his men. There are a lot of men unaccounted for in the RL's, with the BWB network working the area, it's hard not to think they may have had some contact. Add to that all the Darry men roaming the area. Again hard to think they haven't been in contact with BWB.

'' Elsewhere are Darry men left Lordless and lawless.'' [ Jaime V, ASOS ]

Your thoughts on any future events at the Twins would be sweet ! And agreed, a potentially great scene.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I have a lot to look into. I never looked into the old gods with this whole LS/Beric thing.

And eventually we can tackle that 6 Prologue info/speculation, because I think he is not wasting any time, and diving right in, even before chapter 1 with that whole BWB thing, maybe. That Jeyne thing has me intrigued. I think that prologue may have some Webbers showing up.

Bold.] TBH, same here. It's something I always had my one eye on, ;) but hadn't researched it thoroughly. Having a quick look, there seems to be some threads on this with varying opinions. I personally like some of the posts, although it's early doors as to a definitive opinion. Definitely worth some thought, there were some ideas about the cave, and it being under High Heart, an ancient home to the COTF. Add the Bloodraven and Weirwood roots and the talk was of magic. I do like this idea though.

Lost Melnibonean has a thread on the subject. Even if you don't agree with the substance of the thread, there are some great quotes that really get the mind going. Sorry, it won't seem to let me link the thread. It's called.......

'' The power of Beric and Catlyn comes from Old God's, not the Lord of the Light, and Jaime will be next.''

As for your comments in the spoiler tag, definitely. Look forward to any future discussion on that. :D

[Frey Pie]

Thanks Frey Pie. Nice point about Condon and his men. There are a lot of men unaccounted for in the RL's, with the BWB network working the area, it's hard not to think they may have had some contact. Add to that all the Darry men roaming the area. Again hard to think they haven't been in contact with BWB.

'' Elsewhere are Darry men left Lordless and lawless.'' [ Jaime V, ASOS ]

Your thoughts on any future events at the Twins would be sweet ! And agreed, a potentially great scene.

With all these factors taken into account I think it's fair to assume that most of the bandits or lawless men in the riverlands are actually the brotherhood

Did the Blackfish leave on his own? Why would he? Why would he abandon the only position of power and defiance left to him? With tom positioned in riverrun I think it's clear the reason. There must be contact between the groups. I think the next time we see him will be in either a jaime or brienne chapter

[Booknerd2]

Just read the first page so far. Really good stuff people, love the catch on Greenbeard being the tyroshi Sellsword who joins Robb. There's also kyle condons 600 men so there's a sizeable pool of men who have been unmentioned for a while...

As for harwin I think he's a strong call for the hooded man. But with the talk of the remaining winterfell guards I hope we get a scene where the Twins are taken and Walder is confronted. The northmen push to the front and justice is served to the weasel. Goosebumps scene

Thank you.

This was by accident and frustration with all the Riverlands overlays. A lot of us were posting on the same threads and it was out of a desire to have everything looked at a bit at a time and have everything in the OP and all out in front to look at.

I think of years past and even in old movies where somebody has a war map and moves their little figurines around for a better look…lol! Kinda like: Ok, well if we put this guy here, and then if this one does that and moves here…what would happen? Or, what are all the things that can happen?

Yeah, Harwin is probably my top choice for Hooded Man, for many reasons.

Jeyne Poole is going to need a little focus write-up too one of these days. The list is long and growing.

"With all these factors taken into account I think it's fair to assume that most of the bandits or lawless men in the riverlands are actually the brotherhood."

So true and nice to see. Through the characters and snapshots we get, it was sometimes made to appear that there is cause for concern. Edric Dayne takes his peeps and leaves, Thoros doesn't like LS's direction, but when you look at other things and so many "unmentionables" running around, there is a lot more going on when pieced together.

That 600 is interesting, and I want to look into that more. And we discussed briefly the other day, the reference to ( I think it is 6 men) that are scattered that were with the original BWB that left KL with Beric. So it is nice to even have hope there there are possible doors to be open with Northerners and Riverlanders out and about.

Plus, the other day I mentioned too, that Tom is sure as hell not the only guy doing covert work. I think it tells us there are more doing stuff like that. I like to think of him as my "oh, shit" moment, a little sampling that what they are doing is broader than i thought, just like the orphanage operation. I always love the little details we are given, like how Tom and Edmure had a history and Edmure was pissed about the "Floppy Fish" song. Well, bygones are bygones because it is apparent he is working to help the Edmure situation.

Blackfish has got it covered. I have total faith in him.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1.] With all these factors taken into account I think it's fair to assume that most of the bandits or lawless men in the riverlands are actually the brotherhood

2.] Did the Blackfish leave on his own? Why would he? Why would he abandon the only position of power and defiance left to him? With tom positioned in riverrun I think it's clear the reason. There must be contact between the groups. I think the next time we see him will be in either a jaime or brienne chapter

1.] Definitely. We've dug up a lot in previous threads to back this idea, and continue to find little bits of evidence.

2.] I agree, I think there are various factions / people in position within the RL's, and it's seems highly likely they have a way to communicate with each other. And indeed cover various areas and perhaps missions. Jaime and Brienne chapters are, I agree, the best chance to see BF, they are together right now of course. The speculation on the next prologue is interesting as well.

[Booknerd2]

Bold.] TBH, same here. It's something I always had my one eye on, ;) but hadn't researched it thoroughly. Having a quick look, there seems to be some threads on this with varying opinions. I personally like some of the posts, although it's early doors as to a definitive opinion. Definitely worth some thought, there were some ideas about the cave, and it being under High Heart, an ancient home to the COTF. Add the Bloodraven and Weirwood roots and the talk was of magic. I do like this idea though.

Lost Melnibonean has a thread on the subject. Even if you don't agree with the substance of the thread, there are some great quotes that really get the mind going. Sorry, it won't seem to let me link the thread. It's called.......

'' The power of Beric and Catlyn comes from Old God's, not the Lord of the Light, and Jaime will be next.''

As for your comments in the spoiler tag, definitely. Look forward to any future discussion on that. :D

The PQ's keep adding up, lol! We are going to have to focus on Greenbeard and some of the less mentioned BWB one of these days too.

There are nice parallels to Beric and his BWB organization and the Scarlet Pimpernel too. I will leave that for the Beric PQ.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

The PQ's keep adding up, lol! We are going to have to focus on Greenbeard and some of the less mentioned BWB one of these days too.

There are nice parallels to Beric and his BWB organization and the Scarlet Pimpernel too. I will leave that for the Beric PQ.

Ha ! I do realise that it seems to be me that throws you these curveballs, I hope you don't mind. :idea: I will continue to make notes on some of these subjects in the hope I can contribute positively to some of these future PQ's.

And yeah, the Beric PQ will be good. Some of this info / angle, is relatively new to me, and I've enjoyed the brief studying of this subject thus far. [ Old God's in particular ] I feel there are some solid textual hints in the quotes I've seen. And Scarlet Pimpernel parallel as well, ooh, look forward to that. :)

[Booknerd2]

Ha ! I do realise that it seems to be me that throws you these curveballs, I hope you don't mind. :idea: I will continue to make notes on some of these subjects in the hope I can contribute positively to some of these future PQ's.

And yeah, the Beric PQ will be good. Some of this info / angle, is relatively new to me, and I've enjoyed the brief studying of this subject thus far. [ Old God's in particular ] I feel there are some solid textual hints in the quotes I've seen. And Scarlet Pimpernel parallel as well, ooh, look forward to that. :)

Check this out: the bold.

Jaime 33 AFFC: "Don't get me started on Lord Beric. He's here, he's there, he's everywhere, but when you send men after him, he melts away like dew."

I was checking out some passages and almost died. There are many adaptations of the Pimpernel but my favorite is the 1930's one with Leslie Howard. One of my favorite actors, and many know him as Ashley in Gone with the Wind, but he does not shine there. He was a wonderful actor, he didn't want to do that role, and he is so much better in many others, like this one.

Check out the words to the poem he recites. Now to fly under the radar as the Pimpernel, he acts like a foppish, dandy dolt, but in reality he is the opposite, so he is putting on an act, for anyone that isn't familiar with it. I love classic movies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD0cE8B5Dj0

Even the part about "Is he in heaven? Is he in hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel." How many times are people complaining about the conflicting reports of whether or not Dondarrion is dead? LOL!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Check this out: the bold.

Jaime 33 AFFC: "Don't get me started on Lord Beric. He's here, he's there, he's everywhere, but when you send men after him, he melts away like dew."

I was checking out some passages and almost died. There are many adaptations of the Pimpernel but my favorite is the 1930's one with Leslie Howard. One of my favorite actors, and many know him as Ashley in Gone with the Wind, but he does not shine there. He was a wonderful actor, he didn't want to do that role, and he is so much better in many others, like this one.

Check out the words to the poem he recites. Now to fly under the radar as the Pimpernel, he acts like a foppish, dandy dolt, but in reality he is the opposite, so he is putting on an act, for anyone that isn't familiar with it. I love classic movies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD0cE8B5Dj0

Even the part about "Is he in heaven? Is he in hell? That damned elusive Pimpernel." How many times are people complaining about the conflicting reports of whether or not Dondarrion is dead? LOL!

Awesome ! Agreed, he oozes confidence and there is a sparkle to his performance. Nice catch on the poem ! I look forward to any tidbits on this subject. I've enjoyed the parallels to other literature in this series yourself and Le Cygne have highlighted. Keep it coming ! Great reading. :)

[Booknerd2]

Awesome ! Agreed, he oozes confidence and there is a sparkle to his performance. Nice catch on the poem ! I look forward to any tidbits on this subject. I've enjoyed the parallels to other literature in this series yourself and Le Cygne have highlighted. Keep it coming ! Great reading. :)

Yes, parallels to literature and classic movies too.

I am still holding out hope that House Errol is a tiny nod to Errol "Robin Hood/Captain Blood" Flynn. LOL!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Yes, parallels to literature and classic movies too.

I am still holding out hope that House Errol is a tiny nod to Errol "Robin Hood/Captain Blood" Flynn. LOL!

That would be cool. I'm sure I've seen other references to Robin Hood mentioned, I'll have to look them up. So definitely a possibility. Gotta run. :closedeyes: zzz...

[Frey Pie]

That 600 is interesting, and I want to look into that more. And we discussed briefly the other day, the reference to ( I think it is 6 men) that are scattered that were with the original BWB that left KL with Beric. So it is nice to even have hope there there are possible doors to be open with Northerners and Riverlanders out and about.

Blackfish has got it covered. I have total faith in him.

Well the 600 with condon along with the tyroshi band and all the survivors from the battles in the riverlands mean the Brotherhood should have a sizeable enough force.

But if we think a coup is going to happen at the Twins for the new red wedding, and we also believe there will be a rescue attempt on edmure then both need to happen at the same time

Think about it if one happens and word is gotten around defenses will double or triple on the other target. This is the brotherhoods first large scale act of defiance.

So the brotherhood need two leaders. One I think will be the Blackfish and he's a military leader so he will go for edmure. The other is lady stoneheart who will retrace hee last step's as cat....why? Because it's poetic

[Booknerd2]

Well the 600 with condon along with the tyroshi band and all the survivors from the battles in the riverlands mean the Brotherhood should have a sizeable enough force.

But if we think a coup is going to happen at the Twins for the new red wedding, and we also believe there will be a rescue attempt on edmure then both need to happen at the same time

Think about it if one happens and word is gotten around defenses will double or triple on the other target. This is the brotherhoods first large scale act of defiance.

So the brotherhood need two leaders. One I think will be the Blackfish and he's a military leader so he will go for edmure. The other is lady stoneheart who will retrace hee last step's as cat....why? Because it's poetic

The Brotherhood has been mentioned and/or appeared in all 5 books. It seems if anything to be building. For classic movie nerds like me there is a Robin Hood element with a twist as a bunch of us have brought up, and the Pimpernel which I will get into in the future. A lot of tension and note has been brought to these people spread out all over, yet with ties to BWB. Said outright, or in hints/subtext, etc.

I never thought about it but it is true. You hit one place, it will tip off the rest. I have to let this marinate in my brain. And these scattered little picking-off (hanging) Freys events are probably the teaser to something bigger. It will get to a point when all eggs or most of them need to be in one basket.

And LS I think will have no qualms about doling out some leadership to her uncle. God, if he was angry before and determined, wait until he sees what happened to his niece. Bad enough what he knows about Edmure and his wife and child, and the handing over of his home too, Riverrun. I love too that for any past disagreements Hoster had with his brother, his brother will be his biggest posthumous champion for his ancestral holdings and his family.

Sorry. I even think I have more to say or could have worded things better, but a lot of stuff popped into my mind...

[Frey Pie]

The Brotherhood has been mentioned and/or appeared in all 5 books. It seems if anything to be building. For classic movie nerds like me there is a Robin Hood element with a twist as a bunch of us have brought up, and the Pimpernel which I will get into in the future. A lot of tension and note has been brought to these people spread out all over, yet with ties to BWB. Said outright, or in hints/subtext, etc.

I never thought about it but it is true. You hit one place, it will tip off the rest. I have to let this marinate in my brain. And these scattered little picking-off (hanging) Freys events are probably the teaser to something bigger. It will get to a point when all eggs or most of them need to be in one basket.

And LS I think will have no qualms about doling out some leadership to her uncle. God, if he was angry before and determined, wait until he sees what happened to his niece. Bad enough what he knows about Edmure and his wife and child, and the handing over of his home too, Riverrun. I love too that for any past disagreements Hoster had with his brother, his brother will be his biggest posthumous champion for his ancestral holdings and his family.

Sorry. I even think I have more to say or could have worded things better, but a lot of stuff popped into my mind...

I wonder if Seagard will come into this as well...last we heard they dipped their banners to the Freys but the Mallisters are real players in the Riverlands and haven't been too badly affected by the wars there. Jason Mallister is also a beast on the field of battle

I think Lady Stoneheart will have her swansong at the Twins but she won't last long after

And I agree, the Brotherhood are like a dark group of merry men, except they give credit notes to everyone

[Booknerd2]

I wonder if Seagard will come into this as well...last we heard they dipped their banners to the Freys but the Mallisters are real players in the Riverlands and haven't been too badly affected by the wars there. Jason Mallister is also a beast on the field of battle

I think Lady Stoneheart will have her swansong at the Twins but she won't last long after

And I agree, the Brotherhood are like a dark group of merry men, except they give credit notes to everyone

The BWB IOU's are a nice touch. LOL!