The Riverlands Web V.4

[Le Cygne]

#18 Desperately Seeking Sansa

In this one, we are looking at the players who are looking (or may be looking) for Sansa...

Jaime, Brienne, and Catelyn

The Lannister envoy tells Catelyn that Tyrion has vowed to return Sansa to her. Catelyn decides to take a chance, for love, and return Jaime to Kings Landing. She makes Jaime swear to "compel your brother to honor his pledge to return my daughters safe and unharmed."

Then Catelyn hears that Tyrion, who she calls "vile" and "faithless," has forcibly married Sansa instead (and Robb wants to cut off Tyrion's head). Let's just say she's not happy with him. I suspect Lady Stoneheart will not be, either, if she ever comes across him.

Jaime and Brienne hear about it on the road, and Brienne is "appalled" that he broke his vow. "But... he swore, before the whole court, in sight of gods and men... " She then learns Lady Catelyn has died, and is so disheartened, Jaime gives her a quest, to find Sansa.

She connects finding Sansa with finding Jaime's honor: "Oathkeeper. I have to find the girl. I have to find his honor."

Lady Stoneheart

Presumably looking for Sansa, too. She's not happy with Brienne, who turns up with a Lannister sword and a letter signed by Tommen. Brienne is injured defending the kids at "Orphan Inn" (aka the inn at the crossroads), and in a fever dream, calls out for Jaime so often, one of them refers to her as "the Kingslayer's whore" - it's pretty clear she's got it bad for Jaime.

Brienne defends Jaime, but Lady Stoneheart says, "Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose." Brienne prepares to die, saying, "I will not make that choice." Then she spots Pod and says Sword (GRRM confirms this later).

She shows up at Jaime's camp. He asks about "the girl" and she says she has found her, "the Hound" has her. Sansa's name is never mentioned, and before, Brienne mistakes Jeyne Heddle for Sansa and Lem for the Hound (and she has been calling him the Hound ever since, although she thinks Sandor is dead.) So she's not technically lying...

But we don't know what she's up to. Did the BWB follow her to Jaime's camp? Will she warn Jaime he's walking into a trap? Is this a test, and if Jaime comes, Lady Stoneheart knows Brienne was telling the truth? That he really wants to honor his vow? Because he's more use to them alive than dead, if so.

But no one has heard from them since, the Lannisters have no idea where he's gone.

The Blackfish

A possibility. He escaped from Rivverrun and has not been heard from. He has connections to the Vale. He served as Knight of the Gate, but resigned when his niece Lysa refused get involved in the conflict with the Lannisters to help her family. And Sweetrobin and Sansa are family. He knows one is there, and may suspect the other is, as well. He knows Littlefinger, too.

The Mad Mouse, Ser Shadrich - He is described in the text as: "a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose, and bristly orange hair."

In the bible, Shadrach refuses to worship other gods, and is saved from being burned alive in a fiery furnace. Could be a nod to his determination: "Your common mouse will run from blood and battle. The mad mouse seeks them out."

He knows right away Brienne is looking for Sansa: "I did fight upon the Blackwater, but on the losing side. My ransom ruined me. You know who Varys is, I trust? The eunuch has offered a plump bag of gold for this girl you’ve never heard of. I am not a greedy man. If some oversized wench would help me find this naughty child, I would split the Spider’s coin with her."

Then he finds Sansa, and meets her after she arrives at the Gates of the Moon. When the other knight mentions Littlefinger didn't tell them Alayne was beautiful, the Mad Mouse says, "I would do the same if she were my daughter... Particularly around louts like us." Interesting wording, IF she was his daughter.

He's accompanied by two other knights, and my guess is they are what they seem, hedge knights. But their names may be suggestive of the story to come.

Ser Morgarth - He is described in the text as "a burly fellow with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, a red nose bulbous with broken veins, and gnarled hands as large as hams." His name is perhaps suggestive of the Battle of Morgarten, an important victory for the Swiss in the middle ages. Some similarities, a Bronze Yohn figure, and the attempt to oust Littlefinger from his occupation of the Vale.

Swiss mountaineers (led by Rudolph Reding, an older man who was experienced and well-respected) drove off the occupying Austrian nobility and their armored knights. Armed only with simple weapons like clubs, the mountaineers hurled rocks and trees from above, and slaughtered the knights. (There was also a conflict at a nearby abbey between the mountaineers and the monks that led up to this.)

Ser Byron - He is described in the text as "an elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders." He tells Sansa she's "beautiful" and when he leaves, he kisses her hand. This is similar to the way Littlefinger described Harry the Heir, "beguiling... soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles... very gallant." His name is similar to Lord Byron, the romantic poet, who wrote a satire on Don Juan. This is the sort of knight Littlefinger would think Sansa might fall for.

Cersei

Wants her dead: "Cersei means to see that the girl is found and killed, wherever she has gone to ground."

She also says this, foreshadowing about the unkiss and another Riverlands player, Sandor: "She is not dead... but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

Sandor

Will he be looking for her, or will she be looking for him? They clearly want to see each other again, so the motivation is there. And Sansa thinks of Sandor repeatedly throughout her last chapter, she thinks of kissing him twice, and she places him in the marriage bed.

"Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him."

Littlefinger thinks he knows what Sansa wants, and he's trying to "move her" but he doesn't really know what she wants. So I think that's what the author is showing us that throughout this chapter.

If Sandor was not important to her story, if the author just wanted to get across that she's having fantasies, she wouldn't be dreaming of Sandor, and she wouldn't have shrugged off the gallant knight, or Harry.

The first part of the chapter, we get a glimpse into the daily lives of Sansa and Sweetrobin. They've bonded over stories of knights. "We'll sleep and kiss and play games, and you can read me about the Winged Knight."

The cousins provide each other a safe space to explore their dreams, he dreams of being a knight, she dreams of her knight. She sat on the bed and smoothed his long, fine hair. He does have pretty hair... Alayne wound a lock around her finger.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

That sounds pretty romantic. And there's also the hint of sexuality, with the cruel kiss (passion) and the bloody cloak (classic consummation symbolism, red on white), and she seems bitter that he left her, too. Also notable, she doesn't even name him, "he" kissed her, a sign he's been on her mind a lot.

The middle part of the chapter, Sansa and Sweetrobin help each other face their fears, as they descend from the Eyrie. There are the scary moments, and there are the gossipy moments with Myranda, the story weaves in and out of these.

Sansa is making another transition, going down the mountain, Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down. Alayne is an older woman. Myranda tries to figure out what's going on with Littlefinger, but Sansa is thinking about Sandor.

Before, Sandor said, "Look at me," and she closed her eyes. Now, I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

Sandor was always there to catch her before she could fall. She could still feel the cruel pinch of fingers on her wrist as she lost her balance and began to fall. When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle. Now, she doesn't fall. The steepness of this part of the descent made her cling tightly to her saddle. I will not fall.

Littlefinger tells her older men make good husbands. Mya was much younger than Ser Lothor, but when her father had been brokering the marriage between Lord Corbray and his merchant's daughter, he'd told her that young girls were always happiest with older men. "Innocence and experience make for a perfect marriage," he had said.

Sansa asks Myranda about Lothor, but she's really asking about Sandor (she hoped Lothor was Sandor before), and before she was draped in his cloak that felt like velvet, and she has been dreaming about him. "Does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?" "He's a man. He dreams of her naked." And then she places Sandor in the "marriage bed" because of "how he'd kissed her." Not quite what Littlefinger had in mind.

The chapter opens with the kiss Sansa wants (Sandor's) - she found herself thinking of another kiss - and ends with the kiss Littlefinger wants - that's worth another kiss now, don't you think? And that's the author setting up conflict.

In the end, before the conflict sets in, Sansa is hopeful: I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard. And later there will be a feast, with music and dancing.

Dogs are throughout her story as Sandor references (in the chapter before, she was lonely, there were "no hounds to bark and growl," and before that, Lysa "singing" in bed "set the dogs to barking," then Sansa dreamed of him asking for a song, in bed with the hound, etc.), and there were women gossiping when Sansa defended Sandor's "swordsmanship," which was in turn just after Cersei told her about men using their "swords"...

So there are lots of signs of what Sansa wants, throughout the chapter, but also signs that Littlefinger doesn't know what Sansa wants. On the other hand, Sansa has a pretty good idea what Littlefinger wants.

[Booknerd2]

Cersei in AFFC is cringetastic. Wise ass, so sure of herself, and as she swigs her cups of wine and and goes about her conniving, planning, mean comments and even meaner internal thoughts, it is sad yet funny. She is bitter, miserable, and starting to lose her looks.

She made a bunch of remarks or had inner thoughts that I even want to go back again one day and look into for meaning or hints. This is the big one for me though:

"She is not dead... but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

Because this seems like past and future events for both Sandor and Sansa. And Cersei opening her nasty mouth and cracking remarks seems to be ironic or will be at times.

There are many references to Sandor and the Stranger, his horse, and being a stranger, in KL, on the road with Arya, and I think for the future, out and off the QI and not advertising his identity. And we all talked about being a stranger as being disillusioned with himself and others.

I also love with Sansa and Arya that they both befriended Baratheons, as if there is this thing where the Starks and the Baratheons will always hit it off as friends and helping hands.

Also with Cersei in regards to Sansa and "going to ground," it looks like the dumb ass again meant one thing, but ironically she is foreshadowing Sansa descending the impregnable Eyrie, which she has.

[Le Cygne]

Cersei in AFFC is cringetastic. Wise ass, so sure of herself, and as she swigs her cups of wine and and goes about her conniving, planning, mean comments and even meaner internal thoughts, it is sad yet funny. She is bitter, miserable, and starting to lose her looks.

She made a bunch of remarks or had inner thoughts that I even want to go back again one day and look into for meaning or hints. This is the big one for me though:

"She is not dead... but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

Because this seems like past and future events for both Sandor and Sansa. And Cersei opening her nasty mouth and cracking remarks seems to be ironic or will be at times.

Awesome, cringetastic. :lol:

Also with Cersei in regards to Sansa and "going to ground," it looks like the dumb ass again meant one thing, but ironically she is foreshadowing Sansa descending the impregnable Eyrie, which she has.

Another thing I think he's doing with this is contrasting Sweetrobin and Sansa. He felt safe at the Eyrie because his mother told him it was "impregnable" but Sansa says the Eyrie is "impregnable" almost wistfully, and looks forward to her dreams. I think the author has been foreshadowing both for Sansa and Sandor not only marriage, but children. There are the references that she is "mother" to Sweetrobin and he is "father" to Arya (there was also a parallel scene on the show). Poor Arya, she gets the son thing with Ned and then with Sandor!

"No one can hurt me so long as I stay here. The Eyrie is impregnable." (Sweetrobin)

So beautiful, Alayne thought, so impregnable. She could not love this place, no matter how she tried. (Sansa)

He cuddled close and laid his head between her breasts. "Alayne? Are you my mother now?" (Sansa and Sweetrobin)

Robert gave a gasp and clung to her, burying his face between her breasts. (Sansa and Sweetrobin)

"You are prettier than me, but my breasts are larger. The maesters say large breasts produce no more milk than small ones, but I do not believe it." (Myranda to Sansa)

In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya. (Sansa)

"And this must be your son. He has your look." "I"m a girl," Arya said, exasperated. (Yoren to Ned and Arya)

"There's a brazier in the cabin if you and your son want to get warm." "I'm not his stupid son!" said Arya furiously. (Sandor and Arya)

"Might be you'd take a few with you, but in the end they'd kill you and make off with your daughter." I’m not his daughter, Arya might have shouted, if she hadn’t felt so tired. (Sandor and Arya)

"Are you Old Pate's daughter, then?... I buried Old Pate myself, right there under that willow where you were hiding, and you don’t have his look." (contrast, Tom to Arya)

Bonus, show lines:

"His mother should have a long time ago." (Sansa and Sweetrobin)

"Are you her father?" (Sandor and Arya)

Also, I added some things to the Sansa post above... Also found another...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I have nothing of great merit to add, at this point. But just thought I'd mention, didn't Edric Dayne head into the Neck after the resurrection of Cat?

[Le Cygne]

Do you mean he's no longer in the Riverlands? We were looking at each character that has some sort of connection to the plot in the Riverlands, even just a certain knowledge of what's going on, or an emotional connection. Arya's not there, but she was, and people there are looking for her, for example.

[Booknerd2]

Awesome, cringetastic. :lol:

Another thing I think he's doing with this is contrasting Sweetrobin and Sansa. He felt safe at the Eyrie because his mother told him it was "impregnable" but Sansa says the Eyrie is "impregnable" almost wistfully, and looks forward to her dreams. I think the author has been foreshadowing both for Sansa and Sandor not only marriage, but children. There are the references that she is "mother" to Sweetrobin and he is "father" to Arya (there was also a parallel scene on the show). Poor Arya, she gets the son thing with Ned and then with Sandor!

"No one can hurt me so long as I stay here. The Eyrie is impregnable." (Sweetrobin)

So beautiful, Alayne thought, so impregnable. She could not love this place, no matter how she tried. (Sansa)

He cuddled close and laid his head between her breasts. "Alayne? Are you my mother now?" (Sansa and Sweetrobin)

Robert gave a gasp and clung to her, burying his face between her breasts. (Sansa and Sweetrobin)

"You are prettier than me, but my breasts are larger. The maesters say large breasts produce no more milk than small ones, but I do not believe it." (Myranda to Sansa)

"And this must be your son. He has your look." "I"m a girl," Arya said, exasperated. (Yoren to Ned and Arya)

"There's a brazier in the cabin if you and your son want to get warm." "I'm not his stupid son!" said Arya furiously. (Sandor and Arya)

"Might be you'd take a few with you, but in the end they'd kill you and make off with your daughter." I’m not his daughter, Arya might have shouted, if she hadn’t felt so tired. (Sandor and Arya)

"Are you Old Pate's daughter, then?... I buried Old Pate myself, right there under that willow where you were hiding, and you don’t have his look." (contrast, Tom to Arya)

Bonus, show lines:

"His mother should have a long time ago." (Sansa and Sweetrobin)

"Are you her father?" (Sandor and Arya)

Also, I added some things to the Sansa post above...

With Sweetrobin, that was probably a lot of Lysa talking to him over the years. The Eyrie over and over again and how safe and impregnable it was. You have to wonder if he will be uneasy about that descent to the Gates. Is that ever hinted/mentioned with him? I'd have to check.

But again it is ironic to leave the Eyre because "W(w)inter is C( c)oming." Yeah, literally, but also it is probably giving Sansa a better chance to be in a more open and nearer to ground place for whatever ensues. And thank God, I doubt this place has the equivalent of a moon door. LOL! So no worries on that account.

It makes me feel more hopeful because for any Webbers, if they suspect, she makes a move, or whatever, or if serendipity happens. Somebody wants to check on LF or SR, and they stumble into the Alayne thing, it is so much a better place to be for escape, or whatever, for many reasons compared to the Eyrie.

Just in general I feel better that Sansa is out of the Eyrie. Hope it stays that way too.

I love the idea of Sandor and Sansa in parental roles. I never thought of that. Oh, well, it is obvious SR went throughout a lot, lost his mom, and looked to Sansa for stability and comfort, but I lacked the remembrance of quotes. Also, yeah, Sandor was fatherly, elder brotherly too to Arya. The prime example always being refusing to allow her to enter a funk after RW, and his ass was certainly hurting too, after his dreams of entering Stark service crashed and burned like all hell. It is hard to help others when you are trying to pick yourself up by your own bootstraps.

Oh, and every time Arya busts out with a "I'm not a boy," it is always funny. I was doing a little GOT marathon over the holiday and I just love all Sean and Maisie scenes. They are wonderful and so funny.

But it drives it home that you can only imagine what we will never see. Ned with his daughter and it had to be moments of having his sister back in snippets. Very touching.

I love when she is balancing on her foot and rambling about her water dance training and the tips she gets and his face when he says ."Cats….Syrio says." The delivery is too funny!

[Booknerd2]

Just a few things in regard to Sansa and RW:

Sansa is not a Riverlands Webber but just like the upcoming Arya PQ, she is so important because of the many people that are looking for her, be it with good intent, bad, or inscrutable at best presently from Riverlands to Vale and other places too.

And there is so much tension and build up. We the readers know where her and her sister are, what they are doing but people have been trying to get back to them since book 1. Family, relatives, friends, and even the undead now with poor LS, and on the other end of the spectrum, those that seek to hurt her or turn her in to KL.

She is one character that you really feel the roller coaster of hope, crushed hopes, and further disappointments with. So when that cycle breaks, and we are getting there, it will be even that much more sweet.

Sansa and Sandor in text/subtext have so much going on intertwined with the other across every book in the series. Always in each other’s thoughts and this looks like it is for the long haul. Now we covered Sandor in an earlier version, and we are still waiting for him to heal, and for more information to come our way. He is kind of hanging right now, or as I dubbed it, sorta “benchwarming,” like Big Nyms, like Gendry, Stranger, and others. Warming up, and almost ready to get ready...lol!

In former PQ’s we also covered Brynden, Jaime, LS, but this would be a good time to rehash. It will always be the case of going back to present focuses because all the Webbers overlap each other. And many have the same goal: to find both girls.

Does anybody have people they lean more toward as far as Sansa getting the hell away from LF?

She is hard for me. I have an idea of, man, and I say this all the time…the A to Z for her, but the B to Y could go several ways depending.

All I know is that the hair dye is weak and drives me crazy. LF is not stupid enough to think that was a brilliant idea. It seems lax for him and maybe I’m wrong but it was corny, like dumb villain in a silent movie bad. Never sat right with me. I was like,” Come on, you are better than this.” LOL! Even though naturally I want Sansa’s ass far away from him. And doesn’t she say she is running out? Too much! I don’t know what that clown truly has up his sleeve with her. I don’t believe all he is telling her, because his mouth is moving.

I do believe whole-heartedly that Sandor and her come back to each other’s arcs. Also, I would not be surprised that Blackfish, who has had time to observe and hear things about LF from childhood to now, won’t find it odd, when more info comes out, that LF has a daughter/lowborn/out of nowhere/same age as missing Stark from KL, and some eyebrows won’t raise. If trout had antennae….who knows maybe LS will think it odd too. And, I doubt with Sansa, but I am still waiting for Thoros to take down the “Out of Order” sign off his fires.

Truly I think BF and Sandor would be the first to figure it out.

If Varys hears, oh…he is no fool. I think it would hit him too. Not that I want him too, but he is not stupid. What hit me again, was while perusing ACOK the other day, and reading part of Varys but really more Tyrion, and how much they distrust LF and won’t put anything past him. I just file that in my pocket.

But a lot of this was brought up in RW already so I will keep it short.

I think when someone’s breath is described as minty fresh and one time with wine, and he acts more toolish than usual, that a few things might have come out that weren’t supposed to. But even with the 3 Queen things. When she asked, he shut up and dropped it really quick. I have no idea why, but I guess it was leading to something he didn’t want to tread on. Really, he doesn’t seem to mind to bash Cersei though. I guess talking about her with Sansa to some extent is ok in his book.

Then that “controversial” thing… Honestly,I have no clue. I really don’t.

But really I think some Riverlanders do end up in this Sansa debacle. So many of them have been looking for her forever, that is has to go somewhere. It can’t be that none of them catch the trail; a bit anticlimactic, maybe? Also, some have been seeking her since book 1, many are family/friends in the Riverlands, and that has to be resolved a bit too.

[Karmarni]

When the other knight mentions Littlefinger didn't tell them Alayne was beautiful, the Mad Mouse says, "I would do the same if she were my daughter... Particularly around louts like us." Interesting wording, IF she was his daughter.

That’s good. IF since he knows she’s not Littlefinger’s daughter. And “louts like US” includes Littlefinger then too.

Ser Morgarth - He is described in the text as "a burly fellow with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, a red nose bulbous with broken veins, and gnarled hands as large as hams." His name is perhaps suggestive of the Battle of Morgarten, an important victory for the Swiss in the middle ages. Some similarities, a Bronze Yohn figure, and the attempt to oust Littlefinger from his occupation of the Vale.

Swiss mountaineers (led by Rudolph Reding, an older man who was experienced and well-respected) drove off the occupying Austrian nobility and their armored knights. Armed only with simple weapons like clubs, the mountaineers hurled rocks and trees from above, and slaughtered the knights. (There was also a conflict at a nearby abbey between the mountaineers and the monks that led up to this.)

That's interesting! I noted in TWOIAF:

This is what leads to the end of Maegor the Cruel:

In 48AC, Septon Moon and Ser Joffrey Doggett – also known as the Red Dog of the Hills – led the Poor Fellows against the king, and Riverrun stood with them.

The Mountain Clans are there too. The Vale certainly had fighting before. And though the Eyrie may be impregnable, the word is dropped so many times, they're so proud of the fact - it just has to be the opposite in the future.

[Booknerd2]

I have nothing of great merit to add, at this point. But just thought I'd mention, didn't Edric Dayne head into the Neck after the resurrection of Cat?

We did a a little blurb on Edric Dayne. Hard to do and short because so little is known about him. But yeah, we are told he bounces after also not liking the LS direction the BWB takes, right after Beric dies. But nobody is really sure where he is going, why he left specifically, what he is going to do, and if he returns.

Like, does he even consider himself an ally of BWB anymore? Are they a branch or faction? Something else now? Are they his Dayne men?

Really, if LS is on the ground in front of him, in a hypothetical scenario…does he kick her or help her?

Too much to speculate. I even wonder, for a group like BWB that doesn't want to be found out, it seems they let them go…without a fuss? That always sat kinda odd with me too. Then again, are you going risk losing, or make trouble and have problems? So that is unclear too how exactly it went down, if it got heated at all, and reactions specifically.

Or maybe I am playing Armchair Tywin in my head and getting paranoid.

And we meet Arya with Edric, and he seems like a cool and patient guy, so was it the hangings? He feels LS's battles are not his? He needs to get home? His work is done because the man he squired for is gone and is not going to be his uncle-in-law? Go see Aunt Allyria? No clue. He is doing something else? Or, that was an excuse?

Did he leave on good terms with any of the brothers. Thoros maybe?

Gendry…not so much. LOL!

[Le Cygne]

With Sweetrobin, that was probably a lot of Lysa talking to him over the years. The Eyrie over and over again and how safe and impregnable it was. You have to wonder if he will be uneasy about that descent to the Gates. Is that ever hinted/mentioned with him? I'd have to check.

Sweetrobin is still clinging to the belief he's safe there, but Littlefinger is such a disgusting shit, he throws it in his face, and knowing what Littlefinger did to Jeyne Poole, this is especially troubling:

“I don’t like Ser Lyn,” Robert insisted. “I won’t have him here. You send him back down. I never said that he could come. Not here. The Eyrie is impregnable, Mother said.”

“Your mother is dead, my lord. Until your sixteenth name day, I rule the Eyrie.”...

“And how shall you reward him for this service?”

Littlefinger laughed aloud. “With gold and boys and promises, of course. Ser Lyn is a man of simple tastes, my sweetling. All he likes is gold and boys and killing.”

Then the morning they are to leave, he's still saying he wants to stay, he's afraid to leave. Poor kid, he lost his father, then his mother, and he says it again, the Eyrie is impregnable (that's the quote in the post you quoted), but he's safer away from there.

[LongRider]

Sweetrobin is still clinging to the belief he's safe there, but Littlefinger is such a disgusting shit, he throws it in his face, and knowing what Littlefinger did to Jeyne Poole, this is especially troubling:

Then the morning they are to leave, he's still saying he wants to stay, he's afraid to leave. Poor kid, he lost his father, then his mother, and he says it again, the Eyrie is impregnable (that's the quote in the post you quoted), but he's safer away from there.

"The Eyrie is impregnable..." ah, well, not any more I guess. LF showed how a sneak and liar could gain access, create a little chaos and cause a few murders. So has LF created a situation that is 'pregnant' with a few unresolved issues?

(sorry) :(

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Do you mean he's no longer in the Riverlands? We were looking at each character that has some sort of connection to the plot in the Riverlands, even just a certain knowledge of what's going on, or an emotional connection. Arya's not there, but she was, and people there are looking for her, for example.

No, I just noticed that a few posters had kinda implied he might be headed home.

"The very next Arya chapter [ VIII ], we are informed that Edric and some others have gone their 'separate ways'. Some shit went down whilst Greenbeard and TMH were gone. :frown5: Forgive me, I don't have the text to hand, but were there any arguments when the split occurred ? The Wiki just says they went their separate ways.

Could there have been a plan for the departing BWB members to meet up with one of the apparent leaders of their group ? Greenbeard's destination is not only known to them, but geographically directly in the path you may take to Starfall. Obviously Edric's home. This could perhaps fit nicely. :dunno:"

and

"As for Edric Dayne, I like the chance of him meeting with Greenbeard again. South of the Mander is pretty close to Starfall, and if we are to see Edric again, it would make sense that he would need some support / be with a group of friends, and using characters already familiar with each other, and the readers, could also suit the story. Maybe, maybe not. :dunno: "

And I immediately thought, Oh no I am sure we were told he headed into the Neck. So that implies he is not headed tp Starfall, but either North or to GWW. Which I think is a far more intriguing idea.

What would Edric Dayne want with Howland Reed? hey? I have no ideas, I just remember thinking aye up, when we were told he went to the neck.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I have been considering the changing ethos of the BWB. When we first meet them they are for the smallfolk & call themselves kings Men. They started out fighting Lannister forces in the Riverlands and when we meet them through Arya they are essentially attempting to protect the Smallfolk and the Riverlanders who are suffering due to the war.

They fight Lannisters and Northmen alike and punish wrong doing whichever side perpetrate it.

But after LS becomes their leader, they are now seeking vengeance for the RW & assisting her in attempting to find her daughters. I'd say they have clearly become "Stark men" So I'd say that is what caused the rift, that some members felt that taking sides like this was wrong, and that their objective ought to remain the defence & assistance of the smallfolk.

Was Edric one who felt that becoming essentially Northern gorilla operatives went against what they were about? Well seeing as he headed North. I am doubting it.

Surely if he was all about sticking with the initial objective he would have stayed in the riverlands and continued to protect those suffering there. Can anyone pull up the actual text when we are told about his leaving? I don't have the books at hand and think it is worth looking at the actual words used to see what can be gleaned.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Just wanted to say great thread :)

As to why Stoneheart seems to be caressing Robb's crown, I think it's to show us that Catelyn, mother of 5 children, is still inside this terrifying creature who seems to an unthinking zombie living only for vengeance (according to some). Despite she seems to be doing despicable things (allowing the BWB to break guest right, hanging Pod and Brienne,who we know are innocent), Stoneheart remembers her children and still loves them and is looking for particularly Arya, since she has proof that she's alive. Honestly, I always found it really sad, Catelyn has nothing but vengeance to live for, gets hope that Arya may still be alive until the Saltpans occur and she seems to have vanished off the face of Westeros with only the KM, Arya herself and perhaps, now Bran, knowing if she's even alive. And now she's engaged part of the BWB (particularly a person who the BWB knew was close to Arya) in a probably futile search for her daughter and then she gets a reminder that her eldest son is dead with the reappearance of his crown on the head of a whore.

On the subject of guest right, I think part of the reason why Gendry first tries to deny Brienne and co. rooms in the inn and then refuses to eat with them was because he didn't want to break guest right. Just like Jon refused to eat Craster's food and sleep in his hall, Gendry refused to eat with Brienne, even though he was probably hungry. We've been told that the BWB have no problem with breaking such an important law, but I've always wondered whether Gendry, who went to the BWB partly because of their ideals of justice (though to be fair, Stoneheart still holds trails), doesn't approve of killing people who ate with him.

I have nothing of great merit to add, at this point. But just thought I'd mention, didn't Edric Dayne head into the Neck after the resurrection of Cat?

No I don't think so, it's just said that they split from Stoneheart. I always thought that he had returned back to Dorne (he is a lord after all) and Anguy and some others went home with him. He's only 12 and as we see in Arya's chapter where he seems shocked at the thought of killing someone at 12, still rather innocent and naive. Perhaps someone who he trusted in BWB like Anguy wanted out and offered to take him home. Edric was in the BWB because Beric, the lord he was squiring for, was there and he seemed to be attached to Beric too. I don't think he wanted to stay in the Riverlands after his final death. I personally always thought that he would get caught up in the fAegon business and perhaps later at the Wall if he becomes the next Sword of the Morning.

Awesome, cringetastic. :lol:


Another thing I think he's doing with this is contrasting Sweetrobin and Sansa. He felt safe at the Eyrie because his mother told him it was "impregnable" but Sansa says the Eyrie is "impregnable" almost wistfully, and looks forward to her dreams. I think the author has been foreshadowing both for Sansa and Sandor not only marriage, but children. There are the references that she is "mother" to Sweetrobin and he is "father" to Arya (there was also a parallel scene on the show). Poor Arya, she gets the son thing with Ned and then with Sandor!

I know this is completely off topic so I apologize, but your post reminded me of how Arya also acts motherly/elder sisterly with Weasel. Like Sansa, she also worries about Weasel's hair, think it'd be better if they just hacked it off, and like how SR cuddles with Sansa and likes her best, Weasel used to creep out of the bushes when Arya reappeared from scouting and would wrap her arms about her leg and would try to follow her when had to search for food. I just found the parallel between the two sisters interesting.

[Booknerd2]

Just wanted to say great thread :)

As to why Stoneheart seems to be caressing Robb's crown, I think it's to show us that Catelyn, mother of 5 children, is still inside this terrifying creature who seems to an unthinking zombie living only for vengeance (according to some). Despite she seems to be doing despicable things (allowing the BWB to break guest right, hanging Pod and Brienne,who we know are innocent), Stoneheart remembers her children and still loves them and is looking for particularly Arya, since she has proof that she's alive. Honestly, I always found it really sad, Catelyn has nothing but vengeance to live for, gets hope that Arya may still be alive until the Saltpans occur and she seems to have vanished off the face of Westeros with only the KM, Arya herself and perhaps, now Bran, knowing if she's even alive. And now she's engaged part of the BWB (particularly a person who the BWB knew was close to Arya) in a probably futile search for her daughter and then she gets a reminder that her eldest son is dead with the reappearance of his crown on the head of a whore.

On the subject of guest right, I think part of the reason why Gendry first tries to deny Brienne and co. rooms in the inn and then refuses to eat with them was because he didn't want to break guest right. Just like Jon refused to eat Craster's food and sleep in his hall, Gendry refused to eat with Brienne, even though he was probably hungry. We've been told that the BWB have no problem with breaking such an important law, but I've always wondered whether Gendry, who went to the BWB partly because of their ideals of justice (though to be fair, Stoneheart still holds trails), doesn't approve of killing people who ate with him.

No I don't think so, it's just said that they split from Stoneheart. I always thought that he had returned back to Dorne (he is a lord after all) and Anguy and some others went home with him. He's only 12 and as we see in Arya's chapter where he seems shocked at the thought of killing someone at 12, still rather innocent and naive. Perhaps someone who he trusted in BWB like Anguy wanted out and offered to take him home. Edric was in the BWB because Beric, the lord he was squiring for, was there and he seemed to be attached to Beric too. I don't think he wanted to stay in the Riverlands after his final death. I personally always thought that he would get caught up in the fAegon business and perhaps later at the Wall if he becomes the next Sword of the Morning.

I know this is completely off topic so I apologize, but your post reminded me of how Arya also acts motherly/elder sisterly with Weasel. Like Sansa, she also worries about Weasel's hair, think it'd be better if they just hacked it off, and like how SR cuddles with Sansa and likes her best, Weasel used to creep out of the bushes when Arya reappeared from scouting and would wrap her arms about her leg and would try to follow her when had to search for food. I just found the parallel between the two sisters interesting.

Thanks!

-Yeah, I always took the crown thing as maybe the only brief hint we get, a tiny snapshot, that some of the old Cat is in there, even for a fleeting moment, and that she is thinking of Robb/her children. Her exact "state" is still unreadable and up in the air.

-I love and had never seen before that idea regarding Gendry. Now, the author is showing us his latent reaction to Arya being taken in book 3 during Gendry's cameo in 4, he is really changed and very disillusioned, but I like the guest right point you made. I even have to think on that more.

-My coffee has still not kicked in, and when you look for stuff sometimes you can't find it, but I will try to find the exact quote about Edric Dayne splitting. I can't find it right now after perusing.

-Arya and Weasal was sad and moving. She does cluck like a mother inspecting their child's hair, and Weasal did seem to cling to her for security. When she goes off to speak to Gendry alone when scouting before he is taken, he even anticipates Weasal following her, showing us that she must try to go after Arya frequently.

Also, Weasal leaving her arc is similar in ways to Nymeria in Arya's thoughts/rationale. Basically:

Go…run far away…please save yourself. In that vein.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thanks Booknerd2 Its really annoying when you can swear you remember a thing, but can't check it out yourself.

On that note my mate is STILL wading through ASOS, and seems to have stalled entirely (tbf she does have Hypermesis gravidarum right now)

[LongRider]

Thanks Booknerd2 Its really annoying when you can swear you remember a thing, but can't check it out yourself.

On that note my mate is STILL wading through ASOS, and seems to have stalled entirely (tbf she does have Hypermesis gravidarum right now)

I looked a bit this morning, no luck. :(

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Maybe I'm just imagining it?? :dunno:

[LongRider]

I'll check more after work, right now I'm a bit rushed. :whip:

LOL!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

thanks