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The Weirwoods Eyes

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    Must think of something Witty to say here.
  • Birthday 05/19/1981

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  1. I think Aemon is the most likely name. and I’ve written a short post about why. There is a surprising amount of foreshadowing. http://theweirwoodseyes.blogspot.com/2019/
  2. My first bolded sentence from the quote highlights that Barristan knows the man who dishonoured her; a much used turn of phrase I historical & romance novels particularly to mean had sex with outside of marriage, and that he died before Ashara's own death. Because he thinks she may have done it in part in grief for him. So it can not be Ned or any other man who survived the war. The second part poses the question, what good would have come of telling her he loved her? Non he concludes as he would not have acted upon them due to his vows. But he then reflects that no good came of his silence either, ie: She ended up pregnant disgraced and grieving before eventually her death. He then poses the idea that had he won the tourney and crowned her QoL&B she might have looked to him instead of Stark. He is very clearly thinking about the what ifs of if he had declared his feelings and acted upon them by crowning her QoL&B, would she have fucked me? instead of Stark. He's thought of the fact he was celibate, dismissed that as irrelevant compared to the events that transpired as a result of him not telling her he loved her, and thought about what might have happened differently had he not made that choice to remain silent. She might have "looked to" him instead and what was she looking for? clearly romance/love/sex as she ended up pregnant. She didn't look to Stark for a spare pint of milk and perhaps a loan of his lawnmower did she! So we know now that the man she fucked was a Stark an that he died before she did. ergo it was Brandon. There really is no getting around that and when you try to make out that it is ambiguous you just look foolish. There is nothing ambiguous about it, Barristan thinks that she died because of her grief, over the dead baby and dead lover, Barristan recalls why he never declared his own feelings for her; because he could not act upon them, but then concludes that seeing as bad things happened despite him not acting on his feelings that perhaps he should have. He then fantasises that had he won the tourney she might have fucked him instead of Stark. Now you can say ah! but does look to mean have sex with, and I can point out that given the result of her looking to Stark was a pregnancy then yes. We almost certainly can. People seriously need to give it up already trying to argue Ashara's lover as anyone but Brandon Stark
  3. That theory doesn't have Ned as the deflowering cad though. And taht is what people try to claim, that Ned deflowered Ashara leaving her with child. When Barristan having high regard for Ned contradicts that. Ned may well have had noble ideas of offering for Ashara after his brother despoiled her. We have no evidence for that from the text but sure it's a nice idea that he might do so. There is no getting round it though it was Brandon Stark who Ashara "turned to" at Harrenhall, and his death along side their daughters which Barristan believes caused her suicide. Because there is just no way he would behave the way he does around and towards Ned otherwise. Nor would he think she killed herself in part over the dead lover as Ned was very much alive.
  4. Whilst the song is placed in the story to remind us of Ashara appearing as it does in AFFC as a prep for Barristan's reveal about Ashara having been Brandon's lover in ADWD. It is a means to remind the reader of her. Her role in the story is being drawn to an end and if you look at it from start to finish its a completed story. She was set up as possibly Jon's mum and in the end she was just a red herring, if you follow all the mentions of her this becomes clear. But the song is not about Ashara I'd bet the song is about Helaena who threw herself from the red keep after Lady Misery supposedly chose that night to tell her of the horrific death of her son Prince Maelor at the hands of a mob in KL. Not all songs are about romantic love and this story is a tragedy of epic proportions. She was given Spohie's choice when Blood & Cheese used the tunnels to infiltrate her apartments and then he killed Jaehaerys after she chose Maelor. And after she never recovered from that choice. Thinking her remaining two children had been secreted away by the master of whispers Larys Clubfoot she was then told her prince had been torn apart by a mob at Bitterbridge. Whilst the song is there to spark the reader to think of Ashara because GRRM is about to wrap up her part in the books and wants us to think about her; there are no other references to Ashara in AFFC and no POV chapters by anyone who has any reason to think of her so he needed to prick our memories somehow, but he is also published AFFC in 2005 and signed the contract for TWOIAF in 2006, meaning he was already thinking about his history of the Targaryens and had likely worked out some of the elements of things like the Dance so dropping in a song which is actually a teaser for the fate of Aegon II's queen is quite plausible, especially when her story has echo's of the main one. Larys is a stand in for Varys here and his attempt to sneak the young prince away fails miserably. And we are also introduced to a passage which goes directly into the royal chambers in the RK which is used for an assassination and I think this is foreshadowing for Myrcella's fate. Ashara never loved a prince, we learn that when Brandon tells us it was Stark; it can not be Ned as the two men enjoyed such camaraderie and mutual respect in AGOT, Lady Dustin has told us Brandon liked deflowering high born maidens, and Barristan frames the grief over her lovers death as having happened prior to her own and well, Ned survived the war. There is precisely zero in the text to suggest she had any feeling for a prince. And had GRRM wanted to tease at that in AFFC with this song he would have laid some more teasers in TWOIAF. Singers embellish and embroidery for sure. But we have a story which perfectly fits this song and which at the time of publishing AFFC would have allowed GRRM to have his little secret, it's almost like he is foreshadowing for the world book and ultimately F&B here. In addition Dareon is from the reach home of house high tower Helaena's mothers house and a song about her tragedy might well be popular here.
  5. This is gorgeously written and reminds me why I liked the DG books so much. This is a wonderfully romantic descriptor of how fiercely the heart can burn for someone. I love it! Yes the moment I read the about the Hope chest in The Skin Trade it set bells ringing. I'd clocked that the Cedar Chest Sansa places the cloak in could be a Hope chest symbolically already and you will recall I'd been saying so for years. But when I read the skin trade and he had a hope chest specifically and told us as readers what one is and what they were used for I knew I'd been right! Being British I'd not realised how ubiquitous they once were in the states, so wasn't certain that GRRM would be familiar enough with them for the use of a Cedar chest to really be as symbolic as I thought. Now I am 100% certain. And when you examine The Skin Trade it too is the beginning of a Beauty & the Beast story. As it was originally the first of an intended series of stories and without giving spoilers I will point out we have a beast (he's a werewolf.) who is into the beauty, but she isn't into him. This is the set up for a beauty & the beast story. As is SanSan. GRRM & DG give nods to and borrow from one another quite a bit if you look closely at both bodies of work. I know they are friends. So I feel this is likely deliberate. Little nods to each other and what not. Jamie's mother and father eloped and hid out until she was visibly pregnant. This was indeed quite common historically. Rhaegar & Lyanna were likely doing the same thing initially until Aerys fucked it all up by burning Brandon& Rickard. DG has a baby inherit land and property despite very obviously not being the daughter of the man it belonged to simply because legally she is his heir as her mother was married to him. Asha is probably pregnant and is officially married to Erik Ironmaker and Theon can not produce his own heir. So it is likely her child will inherit the iron islands despite being rather obviously not her husbands kid. ie: a bastard should not inherit but as they will "officially" be legitimate due to her marriage they can. If we look at the Iron Islands history too in TWOIAF there is a similar situation with an uncle having his nephew ( I think) inherit the driftwood crown as he has not had any children of his own. And of course DG named the plantation of Aunt Jocasta Riverrun. Just some little thoughts and observations. No real point other than that I like those little easter egg type things.
  6. Thank you for this Le Cygne, You have provided a really good summary of the way SanSan follows B&TB. Their story parallels it so much and given GRRM's well-publicised love of the story I'd say that the chances of this being a coincidence are zero! GRRM has also shown in his back catalogue that he is well versed in romantic fiction and the themes, symbolism, & motifs used in that genre. He's explored romance over and over in his work, so the fact that ASOIAF contains various romances too seems obvious. But of course, we all know how reluctant to acknowledge this many fans are. SanSan is imo one of the strongest romances in ASOIAF. The story flows throughout the entire book series and involves one of the most prominent POV characters. Which indicates that this is an important sub-story within the overall narrative. The idea of dismissing this seems absurd to me. I love how you point out the symbolism of the bloody white cloak, the fact that she dons his cloak herself pointing to the importance of autonomy in her story, and the cedar chest mirroring a hope chest. I know I mentioned this already but it struck me in one of his short stories that he includes a cedar hope chest, revealing that he absolutely knows the symbolism in having her place his cloak in one! The story he uses a hope chest in is also a sort of B&TB story, though as it is planned as a first in a series of shorts the beast fancies the beauty but she does not reciprocate, one is left wondering had he continued this tale would she have eventually fallen for our werewolf hero in this noirish take on the B&TB story? I think so. Sansa's story is so wrapped up in marriage, love, and autonomy. The logical conclusion for her is marriage to a lover of her own choosing. And right from the start, the Hound has been set up to be her choice.
  7. Pretty sure I've said more than enough to prove my point. No need to add anything else because you clearly have nothing at all to counter my argument with other than asking for quotes. Which I have explained i'm not doing right now. As I have got an actual life & I know full well that you are as well versed in her chapters as any of us and know full well to what I am referring.    To claim that a person can go from declaring one thing in their head to doing things which directly go against that assertion, without having given the matter any consideration is just ridiculous. 
  8.     I really do think I have provided enough to prove my point. I'd like you to disprove it, using text and logical reasoning. As realistically if you truly believe that a person can think in one chapter how she doesn't ever want to marry again, but in the next be working towards a plan which includes marriage and NOT have thought about it in between then you must seriously lack in reading comprehension and reasoning skills, and I don't think that you truly do.    It is evident from her internal thoughts what her goals are. To be herself again, to be loved for herself and return to winterfell.    I'm not someone who has an E reader so searching through all of her chapters and pulling every single quote would take me all day. possibly two days and it is the summer holidays and I have three kids at home, dinner to make, laundry to do ect. So no I shall not be indulging your request. because I don't believe you truly do not grasp that she wants those things. As Anyone with the most basic grasp on literature and human nature can ascertain her desires from reading her chapters themselves. I doubt very much you truly need hand holding all the way through her chapters in order to grasp that. 
  9. Are you being deliberately obtuse here. In one chapter we have her thinking about her desires with regard to mariage. In many chapters we have her thinking about her desires in regard to going home and having her true name back, In this chapter we have her going along with a plan which achieves the latter of those goals. Therefore she must have thought about it and have been willing to sacrifice goal number one in order to achieve goal number two.   sansa's head is not despite your insistence, a vacuum. filled with bunnies and fluffy clouds. She frequently demonstrates her acumen.    she tells us she has goal number one, and goal number two, and then we see her seemingly sacrificing goal number one to get to goal number two. in what part of that isn't blatantly obvious that some form of consideration must have taken place off screen so to speak?   As to Robert Arryn. She hasn't given us any real clues as to how she feels about LF's assumption that he will die. But certainly in her internal thoughts she seems to think he will one day have a wife. Which rather indicates that she does not expect him to die, and as she has contrived to have the boy protected 24/7 by an elite guard I'd say she isn't on board with LF's plan entirely. Now untill we see her actions or read her thoughts further on the matter I'd be reluctant to jump to any conclusion, as unlike in my own example. The possibillities are varied. With my own example either you realise a rather clear and obvious thought process has taken place for Sansa where she has decided to compromise goal one for goal two. Or you take the stance that she is a blithering imbecile who can not process information nor grasp the outcome of LF's plans. Now given that she is very clearly not the latter I'd say we have a conclusion. Where as with SR, well she either 1: Knows deep down the child will die naturally and is just trying to ensure he is less afraid during life. But then we have to wonder why she thinks of him having a wife? 2:  She is on board with killing him as part of the plan, but again why would she contrive a plan to have him guarded and why think of him having a wife? 3: she is an utter idiot who can't grasp the basic elements of LF's plan and is just floating along on her little fluffy cloud petting her bunnies. 4: she is aware of the plan, but feels she has some method by which to subvert it, her thinking of him one day having a wife and contriving an elite guard for him, in this scenario makes perfect sense.   But as I said I don't feel yet there is quite enough information with which to make that call as to which scenario is going on here. 
  10.   On what are you basing this assumption?    I'd say we have evidence that she has clearly thought about LF's plan and if it suits her. After all we had her internal thoughts in AFFC where she was thinking no way I am never re marrying unless it is on my own terms. But then we se her seemingly working towards marrying Harry. Are you trying to say that despite thinking the opposite she has naturally, instinctively without ever really stopping to consider and decide what she wants, followed LF's plan to marry him?    because to me the two things are impossible to reconcile without the logical assumption that sansa has thought about what she wants and decided that LF's current plan suits her desires and that the most likelihood of success lies in following his plan for now. 
  11. Chrisdaw, what you miss is the fact that we all learn from our peers and our tutors and that is how human development tends to work. People make the mistake of forgetting that Sansa is a an adolescent, still learning, and yes she is beginning to self determine.    1: she is thinking about how people only want her for her claim and has asserted that she will not marry again for anything less than love/her own advantage.  now we see her in Alayne I seemingly wooing Harry for the express purpose of marrying him as LF has told her. But in reality we do not know what her intentions are as yet and the fact she previously thought internally that she won't be simply used tells us that things are not as simple as her blindly following his instruction.    2: She is self aware, she knows that the Lemon cake Giants lance is for HER, she knows the effect she has upon the males around her and she knows how sweet Robin feels about her. And she knows why she is valuable to so many beyond her looks as well. And she knows how she feels about all these things.    3: People assume her skill with harry at the dance is ALL LF's instruction but we have been shown Sansa's ability to charm and manipulate men of her own volition many times in the books, and indeed she does it in this very chapter, well before LF tells her how, In the courtyard. LF thinks he is schooling her but she is simply allowing his ego to be inflated by playing dumb for him. We know this by the fact she does not in fact follow his every instruction, she refrains from inviting Harry out onto the balcony. And the way she has done the same witty flirtation with other characters of her own volition before. And how she goes way beyond LF's suggestions and adds some Spice ;) into the conversation. She is able to judge what drives Harry's ego and his libido, and use that to play him way better than LF's initial suggestions. The fact she played dumb for LF when we know she is fully aware of how to flirt tells us she plays him too. Which is again confirmed in her smug knowledge that the lemon cake is for her.    4: Following LF's plan is currently in line with what she herself wants, so why not go along with his plan so long as it suits her own desires? only an idiot would refuse help from an expert in achieving ones goals? Sansa wants her name back, she wants to return to the North and she wants Winterfell restored under the Stark banners. LF has promised her all of this and laid out a plan for her to achieve it. Her following the plan does not exclude her self determining her destiny. The very fact we have a ton of foreshadowing that sansa will destroy LF tells us the likely hood is high that she is going to go her own way once he is no longer useful to her.      See this is where I have a problem with your assessment of sansa. So anyone who has ever received lessons in something from a teacher is incapable of self determining? How does that work?  Say i take riding lessons, and I become very good, and I chose to enter a gymkhana, and I win some ribbons, who deserves the honour for those wins? me or my teacher? of course it is me. i was the one who decided to enter and it was my skill which won the ribbons. Of course my teacher will be proud and say I taught her.  But that in no way makes my win theirs. and it in no way means I was merely doing as I was taught without any self determined direction in the way in which I performed.    You see, you speak as though a student is never and can never be more than what they were taught. If this is the case how do we ever make advancements in any field? Surely is Sansa can never take credit for anything herself due to having once had a tutor then no one else can at all either. What is your profession? Do you feel you are just performing the things you were taught by your supervisor or tutor in university? ect. Or do you feel you deserve recognition for the things which you have achieved? 
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