Jump to content

The Weirwoods Eyes

Members
  • Content count

    4,114
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About The Weirwoods Eyes

  • Rank
    Must think of something Witty to say here.
  • Birthday 05/19/1981

Profile Information

  • Gender
    Female
  • Location
    North Yorkshire

Recent Profile Visitors

4,502 profile views
  1. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Westeros is NOT medieval Europe

    In that case I think you're gonna have to clarify what you are hoping to achieve with it. Because it looks like you are trying to have a show discussion in the book forum.
  2. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Westeros is NOT medieval Europe

    What is this thread actually about? I'm not sure bringing random arguments from the show forum into the book forum is beneficial at all. Are you trying to begin a discussion about making assumptions because we are basing our understanding of their world too closely on our own history? Because GRRM has gone into great depth about the world history, and world building. And we no longer need to make assumptions for much of their cultures now. The world book has been a fantastic resource! Maybe if you buy yourself a copy you will enjoy it and gain from it as much as many others have.
  3. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Summerhall tragedy - new theory

    A theory with zero textual evidence is not a theory. If you want to discuss it bring some quotes, back it up with SSM's and weave it together with historical references, folk lore, and meaning to the over all plot.
  4. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Duskendale Delay

    Tywin.....not petty?
  5. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Is Young Griffs invasion filler?

    Having had a brief look into Dany's earliest AGOT chapters a few things strike me. Firstly the plan seems to hinge entirely upon Drogo wishing to wed Dany and giving ten thousand Dothraki over to Viserys to invade Westeros. There is no implication that Dany will travel with them to do so. But ordinarily a wife would be expecting to join her husbands household and live his life. So realistically Dany was never going home. She would live in Pentos in Drogo's mance after the return journey. But from the Arya chapter we know Illyrio was expecting Drogo to participate and lead his men, and that he won't do so until after his son is born. Dany is dressed up to look every inch the Valyrian princess and taken to be viewed by Drogo. Viserys answers her questions about why Illyrio is helping them and he naively thinks that it is because he will have the power to bestow gifts or some other benefit on the man. But Illyrio has no need of gifts. We see in that chapter and in subsequent ones from Tyrion that Illyrio has wealth greater than anyone could imagine. His speech to Tyrion doesn't add up one little bit either. What use has he of being master of coin, he tells the dwarf that he dislikes Westerosi culture with their silly little animal badges etc. It is clear Illyrio has personal reasons for what he does. Dany whose instincts are more well honed than Viserys' tells us she does not trust Illyrio one bit and when Viserys talks of personally killing the Usurper Robert Baratheon Illyrio gives a sly smile. That Dany spots. This rather implies Illyrio has no intention that Viserys should ever get the chance to kill Robert. At the mance Jorah swears fealty to Viserys and joins them, and that night Dany has her first dragon dream; the eggs are undoubtedly in the vicinity awaiting the wedding, she is ungainly; pregnant, and her thighs slick with blood, that is the birth of Rhaego which will lead to the birth of dragons. Ignore viserys kicking her he is irrelevant here it is all about bringing the phrase wake dragons into the dream. And into association with Danaerys. Dany is a Targaryen who now has Dragon Dreams. And those continue throughout. This one is prophesising what will befall her. Illyrio has no use of Viserys and has ignored him his whole life. Leaving him to beg but as soon as Dany becomes a valuable commodity he shows an interest. Here Dany can buy him 10,000 Dothraki to supplement the GC. And he has no qualms about selling her off. In the very same chapter she describes how Illyrio is known to have never had a friend he would not sell to benefit himself. So here GRRM has introduced Dany and Viserys, made it clear Viserys is a dickhead and she is the protagonist here. Introduced Illyrio who he has shown us is both immensely rich and not to be trusted. And given him a motivation for what he is doing - to gain 10,000 dothraki warriors. Not to help Viserys at all but for his own means. He's sold Dany to Drogo to get them, and clearly has no intention of seeing Viserys realise his dream to kill Robert. Viserys will I think have always died at some point in the war. Or soon after. fAegon is and always has been his play. My guess is that logically Illyrio would have approached Drogo to buy the Dothraki, perhaps even offering the three dragon eggs as payment/gifts. But that Drogo wanted a price beyond gold and riches. he wanted flesh. A beautiful young woman of the most noble birth is a valuable commodity. It is made clear that Drogo is unusual for a Khal and this is why he desires Dany as a bride. And so I think this was the only reason Illyrio ever approached Viserys. Viserys is a device to have looked after Dany all this time. And he isn't needed going forward so the author is going to have to kill him off somehow and the road to Vas Dothrak is the method. So the author introduces a new personal body guard for her in the form of Jorah. The brother can not be the one to keep her safe after Drogo dies and she hatches her dragons as he would want to go straight to Westeros and she as his younger sister would do as he asked. She needs to become autonomous. With no influences to sway her path. Jorah is her devoted sworn shield, he advises but she isn't obliged to take his advice. So my best guess is that whilst GRRM had Illyrio initially plan on Viserys invading with the GC and the Dothraki he was not going to be allowed to sit the IT and would have been disposed of the minute the Dothraki had done their job. With his brother in law dead Drogo would be inclined to take his Dothraki back to Pentos and return to his bride and child. And fAegon would then be lined up for the IT. Imagine it. The GC and the Dothraki invade, many lords pledge allegiance to Targaryen restoration and join him. they win against the fractured Lannister and Baratheon forces who have been split by the revelation of the Twincest. All the while Varys has been letting slip to the westerosi lords that Rhaegars son lives and is fighting on the front line in the GC's ranks; Whilst Viserys has inevitably been shirking it at the back of the armies on a horse surrounded by guards. That whips up respect and chunterings of who would make the better king. A few whispers of being too like his father etc and you have a plot emerging from the jaws of what Viserys views as his victory. But Illyrio can not risk Dany sending her husband to avenge poor Viserys so chances are high that he would have found his death via treachery on the battle field once enough lords are liking the notion of Aegon VI. With Viserys gone and the war all but over Drogo takes his warriors back to Pentos and fAegon is crowned. I think that was the plan as it stood at the start of AGOT. Do I think Illyrio foolish to imagine the Dothraki would behave in Westeros and not cause huge disapproval amongst the Lords there? not sure. But if Viserys brought the Dothraki and that happens surely it only plays better into the plan to turn the lords against him at the final hour with tales of how his nephew has fought bravely, selflessly; no ambitions to take the IT for himself, and always disapproved of the use of Dothraki screamers. Bringing me to the final why on earth?? why did Illyrio give Dany the dragon eggs. Well maybe they were simply part of her bride price. If as I suggested above Illyrio tried to buy dothraki swords first by the means of what he already had in his possession, then those eggs would surely have been offered. Drogo's counter might well have been, throw in the eggs too but what I desire is a bride with silver hair and violet eyes. Find me one and you will have the swords. Dany notes that Illyrio is paid a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in arranging the marriage. So that means Illyrio is being paid twice. Once at the wedding and again when those Dothraki do his bidding and invade. Not that it worked out like that. But this is a deposit on the debt owed for his bride and those eggs. Or if not simply more payment for drogo, perhaps as something else. Such as a genuine gift to Dany from Illyrio. Her beauty struck him so much he had to prevent himself taking her for himself. Perhaps as investment in anticipation that Drogo can die and she would make the perfect bride for fAegon in a year or two or three. Once they've seated him on the IT. Drogo after all if it is planned as it sounds in the Arya chapter will lead the dothraki. Could he simply die in Westeros? or on the way home poisoned with say the tears of lys to look like nothing more than a bad sea stomach. Varys & Illyrio can plan all sorts of things and this is not beyond reason. if one needs explanation to accept things which are on the page. But in my view it really isn't that important to work out why Illyrio gave her them, because it is GRRM giving her them and we see that when we examine her bride gifts from Illyrio, Viserys, and Jorah. Each is something to help her survive the dothraki and become capable of taking westeros . Books about the 7 kingdoms slaves to teach her how to please her khal and how to fit in with the dothraki. One to teach her to ride, one the language, and another in the arts of love. and finally the dragon eggs. These are Georges gifts to her.
  6. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Is Young Griffs invasion filler?

    I think in order to try to work out what Illyrio & Varys may have been planning from the start it is best to go right back to AGOT and look at what we are told by the author. I'm gonna start with this one from AGOT: Arya III Here Varys & Illyrio discuss the fact that Ned is on the way to discovering the twincest. And Illyrio is panicking that it is too soon. What good is war now. So their plan obviously does include a civil war in Westeros Prior to the arrival of Viserys, the Dothraki, and the Golden Company - with or without fAegon in tow. But they want that civil war to only happen when they are ready to swoop in and take advantage of the depleted armies and the inevitable taste for regime change the waring will bring amongst the smallfolk and the Faith, the Maesters, & the lower nobility who have no real power of their own and are forced to go along with their liege lords whims. As much as we have always assumed the Dothraki will cause resentment of Viserys' arrival. I'm not sure we can absolutely count on it. It rather depends on what they do with the Dothraki and how much control Drogo is able to keep over them. Illyrio thinks that Varys could try to swing Ned over to their side. The hand they discuss as "Dying" is not Jon Arryn as the reader assumes; we later learn it was not Varys but LF who orchestrated his death. But Jon Connington who Varys helped to fake the death of in order to bring him over to their cause via persuading him fAegon was Rhaegars son. You have danced this dance before suggests that Varys has staved off some conflict of something before because they were not yet ready. My guess is that that was the rebellion and the fact that Illyrio's son was not ready yet. Either because he was not yet born or perhaps just born and not old enough for their plan. Varys wanted to hold off the overthrowing of Aerys and both tried to prevent Rhaegars usurpation and urged Aerys to keep the gates closed when Tywin came a knocking. This all makes sense, Varys is trying to play a careful game balancing the increasing unhappiness with Aerys as a king with the waiting game for their boy to be old enough to be welcomed as a viable alternative. A genuine "Blackfyre" rebellion was the original plan in my view. Varys knew Rhaegar de-throning his father and taking the IT would screw up the plan as he was a much loved and far different man. Hence why he warned Aerys of the council set to happen at Harrenhall. If fAegon is a year or two older than Aegon would have been as Tyrion guestimates his age then he would have been an infant at this time. Then the following year Rhaegar does the unexpected and ultimately war results. Rhaegar is dead ridding Varys and Illyrio of the heir who would stand in their boys way. And Varys thinks if he can hold KL they are in with a chance of averting the overthrowing of the dynasty by Jon Arryn and his two wards. But Pycelle screws it all up by getting Aerys to open the gates and that's the end of that. in the after math though a new plan emerges one which takes advantage of the fact that Rhaegars baby boy was murdered in the sack. And that plan is to pass their boy the son of Illyrio & Serra off as that baby. Varys approaches Jon Conningto who is exiled and tells him of the Piss Water Prince, hands over Illyrio's young son and they set about teaching him everything they believe a man needs to know to be a great king. After biding their time the plan involving Drogo is born, just as fAegon has hit the right age for people to see him as a viable King. But disaster! First Jon Arryn and now Ned Stark are in danger of discovering the twincest, which undoubtedly was the pairs plan for rocking the Baratheon dynasty to it's knees. And they are not yet ready for the inevitable Baratheon-Lannister civil war that will result from Robert discovering his Queen's betrayals. Varys knows Ned though and Ned is not Jon Connington. Ned won't side with Rhaegars boy because Robert is as a brother to him and the Lannisters have tried to kill his son, causing an inevitable hatred and desire for revenge upon them. If Ned discovers the twincest he will do the right thing and go straight to Robert. No matter what Varys tries offering him. Illyrio insists they must have time because of Danaerys's pregnancy and the fact Drogo will not agree to move on Westeros until after the baby is born. So their plan involves moving pretty quickly once the incest is out. A pregnancy only lasts 9/10 months and one would expect the civil war to rage at least that long. But I suppose that may still be long enough for a decisive win by one side or the other? I think it might be helpful to try to work out how far on Dany is at this point. Varys basically tells Illyrio next that he will try his best but that too many people are acting outside of his influence and doing things which will cause war. Stannis & Lysa have both left court and are gathering swords. There is a plot to remove the incestuous unfaithful Queen who they are planning on using to cause war when they want it. That would kick things off too soon potentially too as Tywin is unlikely to take it lying down, and Cat has acted in a way which will also provoke Tywin. Whilst Ned is about to discover the secret before they are ready for it to be out. War is coming. Illyrio tries to assure Varys he will manage it and then the conversation shifts. Here I have set out both what we learn from the excerpt and my own feelings about what the two of them were up to behind the scenes all this time. I'm still unsure about what the plan was with Viserys though and think we will have to delve into Dany's early AGOT chapters to guess.
  7. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Predicting and Gambling

    That Sansa will kill Littlefinger and mount his head on a spike above WF's gatehouse. That one I'd genuinely put money on. That she wargs a merlin I'd have a punt on. That fAegon is fake and a combination of Blackfyre & Brightfyre blood I'd bet a good few quid too . I'm less certain on this one but it's a pet theory of mine; that Darkstar was a squire at the Tower of Joy. That Mel used to be a temple prostitute in Volantis. That she and Moqorro are fire wights That you need to be a fire wight to blow the hellhorn. those I'd lay down a small bet for.
  8. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Is Young Griffs invasion filler?

    There will be a period where fAegon is just in the RK sitting the IT. Whilst Dany is in Mereen/Essos finishing off her business there. This period will probably be taken up with Euron reaving and Cersei either throwing in her lot with him, or sitting tight in CR furious. If she is the tall woman with white fire in her hands in Aeron's Shade of the Evening trip then that tells us she does throw in with him. But I'm yet to be convinced this is her. GRRM has said that many arses will sit on the IT by the series end. So this would bring us to 6. With Dany ousting him when she arrives after a conflict we shall call the second dance bringing us to 7. Then of course there is Jon whose claim will eventually come out. we might even get a few chancers taking advantage of the periods between the upcoming monarchs to briefly claim it. But certainly no way is Cersei sitting pretty in the Red Keep for the entire period of time between ADWD and ADOS.
  9. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Is Young Griffs invasion filler?

    Given that Varys and Illyrio as characters are entirely there for the fAegon plotline, no. fAegon was planned from AGOT. Arya overhears Varys & Illyrio in the depths of the RK's tunnels network discussing the fact Ned is very close to working out the twincest. And Illyrio suggests repeating what they did with Jon Connington, and bringing Ned in to their scheme. But Varys naysays that idea pointing out Ned is a very different hand. And he is. His loyalties lie not with house Targaryen but with Baratheon. With Robert. Approaching him with a view to converting him to fAegon's claim will not work. Then again in ACOK we begin seeing foreshadowing for his existence. As well as the foreshadowing for who Varys and Illyrio are and who fAegon really is. This is then backed up in the D&E tales where we learn a little more about Aerion Brightflame, the Blackfyre rebellions etc. People had apparently been predicting Aegon being alive pre ADWD. but I'm not sure they had grasped that he would be fAegon at that point. His story is also foretold with Danny's HotU visions; he is the mummers dragon. He is not Aegon VI at all but in fact the son of Illyrio; a Blackfyre on his mothers side, Serra descendent of Aerion Brightflame Targaryen and sister to Varys. This theory has been around a while and I believe originated with a forum user called Veltigar. It is easy to find via a quick search and is by far the most convincing of the fAegon theories out there. The numerous clues to their heritage come throughout the books and are such things as the colour purple being used in association with them both, Varys's being as bald as an Egg in the exact same description used about Egg in THK. Illyrio's bizarre lack of interest in Westeros being at odds with his desire to seat fAegon on the IT. The Golden Companies involvement. Serra being "found" on Lys - where Aerion was exiled. Varys's strange kindness to a kings bastards and profession to care about the children being restricted to those children begot and abandoned by royals, cos lets face it he ain't caring for his little birds is he. The list is numerous but I'll leave it at that. Varys came to KL deliberately to begin undermining Aerys' rule whilst back in Essos Illyrio and Serra were getting busy trying to produce an heir to replace the Targaryen dynasty's current ruling branch. Tyrion treats us to the information about fAegon being not quite the right age when he guestimates young griff's age for us. That fAegon was born around the same time roughly as Rhaegar & Elia's son is coincidence required for GRRM's plot. But he's made it not quite so implausible by giving the boys age wiggle room. I have zero idea as to what the two of them were up to with Viserys and the Dothraki unfortunately though. Sending Dany out with three Targaryen dragon eggs ( as revealed in F&B.) and hoping that somehow the beggar prince and his sister would come back and join the Dothraki to the GC and invade Westeros all seems very un Varys like. Who generally seems to have a better grasp on his pawns. Though of course he is human and fallible as he reminds Illyrio in AGOT. What do you think I am a wizard! But yes overall Varys usually appears to have a better grasp on what he is going to do and how to achieve it. And he includes his pawns in just enough of his plan to move them more efficiently. However the over all plan appears to be Illyrio's with Varys assisting in the westeros branch of that plan. And this over all plan evidently changes. Perhaps as others have suggested the intent was to install Viserys and then quietly kill him off leaving fAegon as his heir. Varys has killed Pycelle who I believe would have knowledge which could expose fAegon, such as a birth mark. And next to go was Kevan, to destabilise Cersei further. I believe the next step will be the killing of Tommen, and that this will come via Tyene Sand who has gone to KL posing as a Septa and who has a knowledge of poisons. This is not my theory but a lovely lass I know on another ASOIAF group who has suggested that Tyene will place a contact poison in the 7 sacred oils used to anoint a new king by the HS. And in the previous books Cersei has repeatedly called for the HS to perform this ceremony for Tommen. If this killing will happen with the foreknowledge and agreement of Varys is in doubt though as for Dorne to gain the IT all they need do is kill Tommen and make way for Myrcella as Queen with Trystane as her consort. We know Cersei will support her daughter as Queen despite the unpopularity of the idea of a female ruler in Westeros because she will be her last hope for clinging on to power. This buys her a bit more time in the RK and keeps things ticking over nicely for her own prophesy. I think then that after Arrianne has thrown in fully with fAegon and got her fathers blessing to do so, that Varys will use the secret tunnels in order to infiltrate Maegors Holdfast in the same way Blood & Cheese did and murder Myrcella in her bed. Smothered with a silken pillow just as Tywin pretended her had thought Gregor would dispose of Rhaenys. Once Cersei has no children to promote to the IT she will face civil unrest in the capital like we see repeatedly in F&B and be forced to flee back to CR. Whereby fAegon can enter the city lauded and welcomed in a country with seemingly no claimants to oppose him. This has the added benefit of removing Cersei from KL to be disposed of by whichever younger brother is the one. I flip my mind on who that is regularly. But tend to lean towards Tyrion. Just because so far everything within the prophesy has been self fulfilling. Turning Tyrion against her resulted in him despising her and wanting to kill her.
  10. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Is GRRM As Complex As You Believe He Is?

    OK change of plan I have more time than I thought I was gonna have so I'll try and answer a bit more. So your assumption that Jaquen deliberately got himself arrested to access the black cells as the only way into the TotH is based on your assumption that the ToTH is the only place accessible via the Black cells. But that is not true. The Black cells tunnel goes to a multi door chamber. He could be seeking access to any part of the RK. And in addition the Tunnels as a whole are accessible from outside the RK with no need to be arrested. There is additionally no evidence in the text that Jaquen was deliberately arrested at all and this seems to be entirely your own assumption based on your personal esteem for the FM. Who as I pointed out are as human and as fallible as anyone else. So lets address the assumption that he thinks Tywin had something of interest. Firstly as I have said before Tywin vacated the TotH over 15 years earlier. So even if you are right and he was trying to access the Hands chambers it would be something of either Ned's or Jon Arryn's he was after. You are also assuming that he can snap his fingers and leave his cell. He can't. He has to have something with which to pick a lock. and if he was arrested and thrown into the black cells one can assume his captors searched his person and removed any such items. After all, this is logical prison guard practice. Especially for such dangerous prisoners as those kept in the black cells. right I really do need to go now. I'm off to watch tonights ep of GOt to see what abomination D&D have for us.
  11. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Is GRRM As Complex As You Believe He Is?

    It is not common knowledge. We know it is known at the Citadel because it is in the World book, which is written as an in world book. But at the time of AGOT that book has never been published in world and is in fact a gift for the King and not something which is being created for mass publication. Besides that we know that the Rat catcher known as Blood and Cheese knew of them as he uses one in TP&TQ to kill Aegon II's son. Arya stumbles upon one by pure accident. LF does not use one to take Ned to the Brothel to meet Cat because the brothel he takes her too is in fact a cheap establishment and not Chataya's. AGOT Eddard IV From there he takes him down some more steps and through a door and down the cliff ladder Sansa later uses to escape. This is not a secret tunnel it is just a little used exit from the castle in which there are old forgotten Targaryen suits of armour. But I can see why you might have misremembered it as a tunnel because we do see Targaryen relics in the RK is via these tunnels. Varys is the one who introduces us via Tyrion to the tunnels. He shows Tyrion the one in the tower of the hand which leads to Chataya's and was almost certainly a recent addition for Tywin to access the brothel. But one which likely utilised a pre existing tunnel. And we know he is using the older tunnels because Arya spots him and Illyrio there. And later he shows Tyrion the tunnel which he uses to sneak to see Shae. and then later still to access the tower of the hand and kill Tywin. Now the logical conclusion from all of this is not that those tunnels are common knowledge therefore the FM must know of them an entire continent away. But rather why does Varys have such knowledge? Varys is set up as an outsider but subtle clues within the text indicate he is in fact a Targaryen of some description. Bastard?, forgotten son?, Blackfyre descendant? The best explanation by far which I have seen in all the years I have been in the fandom is Veltigar's Brightfyre theory in which he proposes that Varys is a descendant of Aerion Brightflame Targaryen who was exiled to Lys in The Hedge Knight. This theory is connected to the fAegon storyline. But certainly being a Targaryen descendant might have enabled him to retain some family knowledge of the tunnels and therefore set about exploring the RK upon infiltrating Aerys' court in order to find and exploit said tunnels. Also though the Brightfyre theory proposes Illyrio is descended from House Blackfyre via a daughter of that house and this again gives him the possibility of knowing such tunnels exist which he can pass on to Varys for that purpose. The alternative that both men are unconnected to the Targaryens and are altruistically promoting the son of Rhaegar as King of Westeros is preposterous and ignores a wealth of evidence to the contrary. So no I do not think logically the FM must know about said tunnels nor that they are common knowledge. No other character's ever mentions them or use them. The knowledge of them is restricted to Varys, who tells Tyrion, and Arya who only knows about one through self discovery. And Maesters in the Citadel who write of them in a book which is yet to be published in world and will never be widely distributed. How does that Maester know? well because GRRM wanted to tell us about them a bit more and to use them in TP&TQ. Because he's probably going to have Varys use them again in TWOW just as he uses them to kill Kevan and Pycelle in ADWD, to assassinate someone; Myrcella. That's foreshadowed in TP&TQ when he has Blood and Cheese use the one into the royal nurseries to kill a Prince. There is no evidence that the FM have any such knowledge or that they have been preparing for three hundred years to infiltrate the RK. Why is it logical that they would be researching the castle of a dynasty in a kingdom on another continent? Yes the IB may be linked to the FM. But equally don't assume they are. It may just be that the IB as the richest organisation in the known world can afford to hire a FM when and if someone reneges on a contract with them. They might just like supporting other local businesses. The Iron Coin instills wariness in the sailors on the ship Arya takes to Braavos. They each introduce themselves as a protective measure. The coin is clearly associated with the FM. And not the IB; or else they would assume she was an envoy of theirs like Tycho. Yes the fact it is Iron implies a possible link between the tow but don't jump to conclusions on one tiny piece of suggested evidence. Everything which we have seen on the FM via Arya suggests that they are a highly skilled organisation which delivers death for a price, though not necessarily a price in material wealth. Lets wait and see before we start using such words as obvious. Often in ASOIAF GRRM sets us up with a first impression which he later tears down. Little birds whom he makes mute and then kills when they get to a certain size/age. Shae who was kept under strict control in the RK working as a maid and watched by Varys the whole time she was there. Who is also now dead. Chataya knows about one tunnel which was built within her lifetime; probably, and which she knows was used by the Hand of the King. and later Varys presumably contacts her to arrange to use it to facilitate Tyrion's trysts. Chataya knows that that hand; probably Tywin, had it built in order to use her brothel. She does not automatically know that this tunnel is part of a larger network which runs through the entire of the RK and Maegor's Holdfast. Why on earth would anyone tell a whore such valuable information? Where does it tell us that Aegon IV used them to sneak whores into the Red Keep ? You will have to provide a quote for that one. All those things are possible but they are nothing more than your own imagination. There is no evidence in the text to back any of it up. Based on what Jaquen did? and what was that? what has he done to evidence that they know of the tunnels and have decided to use them? Again this is just your imagination and is not evidenced by the text. We don't know why but it is probable that Jaquen had to remove his skin magic for some reason and they saw his face change. The author wants to convey to us that Jaquen is a mystical dude who has special abilities. so he tells us that he scares the crap out of two pyschopaths. Later when Arya begins her FM training we learn their ultimate skill the skin magic and it is unlike anything we have seen so it seems logical that this was what Rorge & Biter saw. Because to scare them two it had to be creepy as fuck. There is even logic behind why a FM might remove his skin magic face in the Black cells. To try to persuade the guard that you are in there by mistake. If you don't look like the guy that was brought in then why are you in there? Nope non of them knew oneanother they were just cellmates. That happens in prisons. especially crowded ones. Nope Ned & Tyrion are nobility, and not just any nobility both are of the highest and most ancient Houses in the land and both have held the esteemed office of Hand of the King. They get their own cell. How could he have freed himself from chains? because he is a FM he can do literally anything? Have you been paying attention to the books? GRRM makes a firm point that everyone has bad luck sometimes, everyone is fallible, everyone can make mistakes. FM are not some super beings capable of achieving any feat put before them. They're good, the best in the world but they are only human. we are told the three of them were in the Black cells which are reserved for the most dangerous prisoners. They are low born and dangerous. ACOK Arya I ACOK Arya II ACOK Arya IX Here we have confirmation that the three of them came from the Black cells together Jaquen says it himself. Also Rorge thinks Jaquen is from Lorath so he has obviously told them a fake back story at some point. Arya believes he is Lorathi too And Lorath is very near to Braavos. ACOK Arya II Here he has introduced himself as Jaquen H'ghar of Lorath. And he has foreknowledge of Rorge's name and that Biter smiles at the name Biter, indicating that Jaquen has guessed correctly. The three of them have been in oneanothers company some time and Jaquen refers to them as his companions in the Black cells as well as in the wagon. Yoren knows the men he takes from the Black cells are the most dangerous criminals which is why he keeps them chained and confined. He doesn't automatically know what each has done but can assume these are murderers and psychopaths given their placement in the black cells. Arya assumes he knows what each has done but she is an unreliable narrator. She is both a child and has no knowledge of what Yoren might or might not be told of each man he takes for the watch. Never forget that all our POV's are sometimes unreliable and always consider who they have come to their own thoughts what knowledge they have etc. OK here you have contradicted yourself. First you say that they were alone in their cells and did not have prior knowledge of one another. They you say that Rorge & Biter saw Jaquen leave his cell. And frankly what you have written here is your own fan fiction. Again there is zero evidence that any of this happened and it is about as far away from logical as you can get. Seriously you just made all that up. Based on nothing but your own illogical assumptions and ideas. There is a tunnel which runs to a central chamber from both the tower of the hand, many other places and the 4th level of the dungeons below the black cells. ASOS Tyion XI Here the cells are even described and they are described in such a way that we know the three men must have shared one as the doors are wooden and therefore in order to have been companions in them as Jaquen tells Arya, they had to be in together. Tyrion and Ned whilst both deemed traitors at least get a solo cell due to their high born status. So the tunnel is not in the black cells at all but in fact is in the fourth level below there. A place built for torture where Qyburn will later carry out his experiments. ASOS Tyrion XI Here they traverse the pathway from the dungeon through the tunnels and into the chamber. Note that there is a security door between this tunnel and the main chamber for which Varys has the key. And it is from here that Tyrion accesses the Tower of the Hand. The Black cells is likely not the only way to access the tunnel into the tower of the hand. There is the tunnel Arya discovered in AGOT from outside the castle without the need to be arrested and locked in a dungeon, that tunnel leads into the chamber with the dragon skulls which we know is connected to the other tunnels because it is where Arya spots Varys & Illyrio, coming up steps carved in a well in a pitch black room leading off the Dragon Skull cellar. There is no reason at all to conclude from the fact there is a tunnel from the dungeons that intercepts the chamber where it seems many tunnels interconnect that Jaquan deliberately got arrested to access the Tower of the Hand. Especially not when we know of another tunnel directly from outside the castle which leads into the tunnel system. Nothing at all indicates this is Jaquen's goal. And Tywin has not been hand for over a decade and a half. I'll come back to this as I have some stuff to do and your post is enormous and so there is a lot to address.
  12. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Who is going to get poisoned by the mushrooms?

    I never said the dragon lords worshipped R'hllor. Nor that they were the majority religion. We know from the world book that Valyria had a policy of religious freedom. But that the Dragon Lords themselves kept a pantheon of their own gods; however not taken too piously. But the Red Priests were pretty numerous in Valyria and worshipped by the slave class. The Dragonlords despite not holding with Rh'llorism however did build the Red Temple of Volantis. Which tells us they were keen to facilitate the faith amongst the slave class. We do not after all have evidence of any grand temples built by dragon lords dedicated to any of the other myriad of cults which sprang up. The religion is based around fire and involves fire magic and it is run by and for slaves. I think it is quite plausible that the Valyrians created Fire Wights and used slaves who they made into fire wights for certain tasks. Such as the horn and also going deep into the fourteen flames a mortal man would soon perish under those conditions but a slave who has no need of water or air can slave away all day. But if you create a magic which seems to make a person immortal and do not reveal the means by which you did that and there are language and class barriers between the people involved and you yourself are presenting yourself as god like. Yeah I can see a religion springing up around that magic and I think this may be what happened. I'm not saying for certain though as we haven't got enough information. But we do know the dragon lords had a close relationship with the Rh'llorists in that they built them a huge and stunning temple.. Religious buildings are all about awe and wonder as a tool to persuade the masses to behave in the way the priests tell them to as it is gods will etc. Remember what I was saying earlier about religion as a tool of the nobility to keep the masses subjugated. In early Christianity religious power was tightly linked to the nobility. so perhaps the Dragon Lords encouraged R'hllorism as a means to assist in retaining control over the slaves? If you have the High Priest in your pocket you can influence those people. Just as we see the power Benerro is wielding in Volantis which is in danger of undermining the Old Bloods control of the city and in KL we see the High Sparrow wielding dangerous influence over the smallfolk and similar incidences in FaB too. Religion is a great tool so long as you are the one controlling it. I think at some point the Dragon Lords lost control of this useful tool. I've gone off on a massive tangent. But then you know I am guilty of doing that a lot. I hope you see my points though. Some ideas to consider and mull over. Yeah, that was definitely something we differed on when we discussed how to hatch a dragon. I was really pleased with that little revelation in FaB as it indeed backed up what I was saying. But we do still have anomaly's and this is why I want to collate everything we learnt about dragons, eggs, and hatching conditions we learnt from FaB. I still think that Dany's psychic bond type experience is our best bet for how to hatch a dragon. outside of volcanic ie: their natural, conditions. And I'd love to pull something together from what we learnt in FaB. There is no way the Valyrians different attitude towards women and power did not influence the suggestion that a woman could rule the 7 kingdoms or that the Andal faith of the seven influenced beliefs didn't influence the views of those who said they can not. That was all made abundantly clear in FaB. That there was a definite conflict between the Targaryen Women and the patriarchal culture of the Andals. Jaeharys sold his female relatives out and it was the main source of conflict with Allysanne. The question of whether a woman can rule would never have risen at all if the Targaryens didn't have their own Valyrian influenced culture. And I am not saying Valyrians saw women as equal or anything that radical. But rather that FaB made it clear they had a very different attitude than the Andals do. That is a very good point and yeah that puts that to bed. No need at all if one person can control multiple dragons. So are we back to the idea it is for the purpose of blood binding a line of dragons to a line of men? Hmm.
  13. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Who is going to get poisoned by the mushrooms?

    Fair enough, I didn't know he had said that. Personally I've always viewed LSH as being pretty much along the lines of a Cat who has lost her morality. What hints do we get earlier on? I don't recall any. I'm not assuming though. I'm looking at the evidence in the text and the logical conclusion is that she is a fire wight. We can not say they resemble her in emanating heat no. Non of our other fire wights have been said to emanate heat. But this is far from conclusive evidence that Mel is special. or different and can not be the same type of wight. It's reaching to draw that conclusion. As I pointed out. the author goes to great and seemingly meaningless length to tell us all about the tattoos in Volantis and their meanings and that their are three classes of slave at the red temple there. And then he has Mel tell us her tears were of flame. And has Tyrion who he used to describe all these tattoos and slave types tell us it is hard to tell the difference between a whore and a priestess. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying it is important where she was introduced to R'hllor. What I am saying is that the evidence in the text; which is done in a manner which is totally in keeping with GRRM's style, tells us that she was a temple prostitute in Volantis. Only Volantis uses these elaborate tattoos for their slaves. Both in the city and in places under their control such as Selhorys. So going by this information Mel was sold there. Lot is the word used universally for auction lots in the English language as I am sure you are aware. Whilst GRRM might have decided to change it up in Volantis and only use Lot when referring to auction lots in slavers bay. It seems highly unlikely and a massive assumption based on no evidence at all. And come on you're better than that. You tell me that we can't assume the other fire wights emanate heat because no one has said they do in one paragraph then decide that the only word used in the English language for an auction lot might be different in Volantis because it wasn't specifically said during those chapters set there in the next. This is a massive unevidenced assumption and one which doesn't even make any sense. Our job is not to decide what we want to happen but to use the text to decide what will happen based upon the clues held within it. Sometimes those clues are derived from the real world, our histories, mythology, and fairy tales. Sometimes they are derived using the in world lore, legends, and practices. But always we should be using the words on the pages to make decisions about what might happen. Not simply what we do or do not want to happen. GRRM went to great lengths to tell us all about Red Temple Slaves out of Volantis, he spent lots of time and space on the pages explaining the tattoos, and the fact that having flame tattoos means any slaves will always be returned to the Temples of R'hllor. They are their marker. And he used specific phrasing twice to hint that Mel has a tattoo of flame tears marking her as a prostitute once from her "her tears were of flame" and once from Tyrion; who is connected to this foreshadowing as the person who introduces the three categories of slave, the tattoo used for whores, and the fact that these tattoos mean you can never be free from these roles, who tells us it is hard to tell the difference between the whores and the priestesses. I'm done on this element of the discussion now. I feel I have provided adequate evidence for my theory. I've used quotes from the text to back it up and explained why I think they mean what I say they mean. And I think most people reading will see those connections and can make their own minds up. Either I'm right or I am wrong. But GRRM started to introduce a back story for Mel in ADWD and that back story is of slavery and ties in with everything else I have said. So, which ones does she not exhibit? We've been over this. Or so I thought. If she has only been raised once she doesn't become like Beric or Cat who have been raised over and over again and raised after a prolonged period of death respectively. Also being a person with magical ability in her DNA she may react differently to the spell than someone with non. And likewise we've been over the sleep thing. The author is telling us that these people do not need to eat, drink or sleep. She falls into that category. Her eating is for show only; and the fire takes care of the issue you raised of digestion, she drinks only to ease a dryness in her throat and Beric too takes sips of wine, and she hardly "sleeps" and nor do the other wights we meet. Are there some characteristics I have missed? I'm reserving judgement on this one. If I look at what we know. We know she is Red in an unnatural way. That people see her as you point out as being red herself. And we know she is glamoured because of what we learn regarding glamours and her use of them and rubies. And we know that she is extremely old thanks to Carrice confirming what has long been suspected. And we now know that it is very likely that she has tattoos which are being hidden. We also know she carries a flame inside her; just like Beric & Cat. But we have no evidence that the flame causes her uber redness. Or that flames as a magical component can alter a persons appearance. So for now unless new evidence comes to light I'd say it is far safer to assume her unnatural redness comes from the glamour which we know she is wearing. Always base your theories on what is in the text. And be cautious about making assumptions which don't have text based evidence. I think we can safely assume she became a believer in R'hllor in whatever temple bought her. I say that temple is likely Volantis, based on the evidence in the text discussed already. And this is where we have to look at her story and weigh up how she ended up a lone priestess. Because if she was held as a sacred prostitute in Volantis she would not have the opportunity to go to Asshai. We are told by the author that those tattoos mean the slave will always be returned to the Red Temple. So it is plausible that this is why she uses a glamour. To give herself the freedom to travel as a priestess not a prostitute who is a commodity of the red temple. Just like those fiery hands who Tyrion spends so much time telling us about are commodities of the Red Temple who will be returned due to their tattoos. Now I won't pretend to know how or why she managed to escape the Red Temple in Volantis or what happened to her in between. There isn't enough evidence yet I suspect we will find out in TWOW. But somehow and for some reason she left Volantis and travelled to Asshai. Where we know from the world book many red priests go along side practitioners from other religions and cults and general magic users seeking to further their knowledge and abilities. And we are told that they do this ( the cultists at least) to practice the darker aspects of their arts. TWOIAF : The Bones and Beyond: Asshai - by-the-Shadow. Here we are told that the people who seek out Asshai are doing so to practice without restraint or censure. And that it is dark arts which attract them. Red Priests being specified. And we are told the most sinister are the Shadow binders. Now Mel has not become a lacquered mask wearing shadow binder. But she most certainly has learnt their arts. She uses magic to conjure shadow assassins from her womb. And in doing so she takes the essence of men via their sperm. Sucking the life from them slowly through sexual congress. Yeah that is sinister. But as you say she does not attribute any of her other forms of magic to herself but all to R'hllor. Which is disingenuous. We know that she knows that she learnt that shit from the shadow binders. Just as we know that she knows that those alchemists powders are doing the work for her when she performs her nightly performance for her followers. So we can assume that GRRM wants us to connect Mel who is a red priestess who has been to Asshai with the reasons he gives us here that Red Priests travel to Asshai. Especially given that Mel comes back from there with knowledge of the most sinister of asshai'n practices - shadow binding. He's also hinted here that Mel may have been into the heart of darkness ( cue 70's music and helicopter noise) Whilst GRRM tells us not to take Yendall's words as facts. he has undoubtedly used them to give us his usual smattering of hints and clues. We shouldn't just right the world book off as useless and incorrect. It is a rich resource in the series full of clues. I tend to think that it is when a Maester tells us things are untrue and another source conflicts with this such as Septon Barth that we should discount the Maesters pov. And yes the far lands are described in the same way as our own historical explorers did. Fantastically inaccurate. But most of those whacky claims came from real things. It is up to us to read the world book and interpret what is and is not true and how those fantastical tales might be sifted through to learn the truth. Again we have to go with what is in the text. There is no mention of an antidote. Therefore it is unlikely one exists. Yes she most definitely foresaw Cressen's attempt. She could have neutralised it using a spell. But again there is no mention of spells to neutralise poison and again GRRM has had ample discussion of poisons in the text both Tyrion and Arya discuss them extensively. The FM are one of only a few factions who we know know how to create the strangler and they are also knowledgeable about magic. They use glamour's and skinwearing. And undoubtedly FM have been sent to Asshai to learn many magics which helped perfect their techniques. If there is a spell we ought to have learnt of it via Arya. GRRM likes to pepper the later books with reveals. Such as the one about Basilisk Venom. Magic being able to neutralise a poison is not a fact. We have not one single case of a magic which has been used to do that. And no hint at all that it can. And GRRM has written plenty in both the main series and in FaB and the world book about poisons. Yes that is my point she is magically transformed by the spell known as the fire kiss. And this transformation has made her immune to the strangler because how the strangler works it constricts the muscles of the windpipe. We now know from GRRM himself that they are dead, and their bodies no longer function as ours do. their hearts don't beat, their blood does not flow, and from that we can conclude they don't breath either! I used to think Drogo was another fire wight who was brought back using the kiss. But following that statement from GRRM had to conclude he was not. Precisely because he was breathing and Dany smothered him with a pillow to kill him. In fact I think you argued that very point with me? I am quite content to acknowledge when an idea or theory has been wrong. I thought Alys was a Blackwood too but have been proven wrong, you were right she is a Strong. I've had to re-think things and will be revisiting my ideas about her in accordance. So if she doesn't breath she isn't going to be effected by the strangler. All Beric's deaths are caused physically with mortal blows bar his hanging which can either be strangulation; which fucks this theory or breaking his neck which does not. I think we need to go read about his hanging and see if it is clear which. But always bear in mind that GRRM has said not to read into the magic too closely as he has not worked out a system by which magic works precisely. There are contradictions within the text and times when we just have to go with what he has put on the page. Such as if their blood doesn't flow why do we get the dramatic gush of blood following the Hounds fatal sword wound to Beric in the weirwood cave? I seriously wouldn't put it past GRRM to have Mel immune to the poison because of his idea that wights are dead but have Beric be hanged by the slow method because that sounded so much more gruesome on the page. Like Beric's blood gushes out in a horror scene like image despite the fact he has decided the heart isn't pumping that blood around his body. I mean if we take GRRM's words as law then Beric should not have been killed at all. But he was 6 times. All the bodily functions impaired by the methods of killing him would be fatal to us. But they are all ones which should not be fatal to a fire wight whose body is not fuelled by blood being pumped around the body and oxygen filling the lungs, controlled by neuro activity in the brain. So like GRRM tells us don't look behind the curtain too much. I've looked behind the curtain a lot. I've spent a long time studying the magic in ASOIAF and it roughly works but if you look too close as we are attempting to do here it falls down. But in the absence of evidence for an antidote or a spell to neutralise the strangler and evidence that Mel is an undead fire wight; which we do have, my explanation becomes the simplest. She is unaffected because she doesn't breath air to live. And that is in line with what GRRM said about fire wights. Even if he himself has contradicted what he said in the text. That's on him, he can do what he likes. We however should not decide whatever we like about the story we should use the evidence on the page and the words of the author. Yes as I said before re Yandel. Taking him with a Pinch of salt doesn't mean we should Throw the baby out with the bath water. GRRM has used the imagery of Asshai in the world book to convey a place of mystery but also a sinister place reeking of magical corruption and leaching out a malevolent power. This idea that no woman can grow a life inside her within the place sits snugly alongside this. The only babies born in Asshai are the shadows created by sinister sorceresses which suck the life force out of men through their weakness for sex. I've not said she is just a charlatan. However GRRM sets her up as this massively powerful sorceress and we later learn that she in fact uses many tricks to convey this which upon inspection are far less awe inspiring. He sets this up from the beginning of the book and just as he is doing with many mysteries he's revealing them to us as we go along. So we discover that she used trickery to convince those around us of her power. The nonsense with the leaches, the powders, the big show of drinking the strangler when she knew full well it would not harm her; for whatever reason, the display on the beach where she gives Stannis his fake sword, the big show again at the wall burning "mance" and making the wildlings burn weirwood branches. It is all showmanship. It is about awing people who do not understand how she does these things in order to convert them to R'hllorism. Benerro's doing it too with his powders just the same as Mel's that make the fiery golden glyphs in the air outside the temple as he speaks. And that is why she accredits R'hllor with everything she does despite knowing herself that she picked that trick up from some other cult such as the shadow binders, or that she is just using alchemists powders. Or that she is using the images she legitimately see's in her flames to create faux magic. MMD does this too by creating an atmosphere of terror in the tent and the way she creates these shadowy monsters on the tents walls, we don't know how she did that but I suspect it was more powders or some other trick she learnt herself in Asshai. GRRM sets it up from the start that people see power where they want to and that magic users can use their powers to convince others of things. There is true and powerful magic in this world but there is also the human desire to exploit people and to con others for their own purposes. Mellisandre is a true believer and no doubt truly believes that her manipulations are in the peoples best interests because she believes that she has to do whatever it takes to win the war against darkness. And facilitate AAR in this task. Again we have to go with what is in the text. And what the author has told us. In this case I have not found anything directly in the text so I am going on what is in the official app. I welcome any explanation as to how and when she came to Dragonstone from the text. This implies that the vision which brought her to Dragonstone was about AAR, or came through asking for a glimpse of AAR. We can assume she was seeking insight as to AAR's whereabouts due to the appearance of the comet I think. That it heralded the promised princes arrival. This much is pretty obvious when you piece together the snippets we have of the prophesy. And then we are told she decided Stannis who she found ruling Dragonstone and who is of the right bloodline to be AAR/TPTWP must be he. Seeking to get into his inner circle via converting his wife. I'd love more clear evidence of the order of events though if you happen to be aware and can provide quotes. As to Alys well thi sis deliberate on GRM's part. He is showing that she is fallible. And is another way in which he is breaking down that first impression he gave us. This is a technique he uses throughout the books with various characters. That what we think we know is not the case. Similar to how he sets Mel up as being from Asshai but then shows us she is not. And sets R'hllor up as a demon god from that shadowy place but it isn't a religion from Asshai at all, but seems to be from Valyria a construct of it's slave class facilitated by the Valyrian drogonlords to keep the slaves content and in their place. A mirror to real world religion's role in helping to establish the nobility class in power and keep the lower classes under control and in the their place. Everything we think we know is questioned as we progress through the story. Here Melisandre who we thought was this all powerful woman has made a rooky mistake; she even tells us that she needs to be more careful and that many a red priest has been brought down by misinterpreting the visions in her POV chapter. Woops indeed. Of course she has real power. She is a magic user. Many characters in the story are they are a vital component to the tale. But yes she makes mistakes. Everyone does. That is part of what GRRM is doing he is telling a story with realistic characters so being a magic user doesn't mean you are all powerful and infallible. Is she the most powerful? I'm not sure we can call that at all. MMD was pretty dope. She actually did bring someone back to life. She too made a mistake though in leaving his consciousness somewhere else or perhaps not she was a cruel woman. Marwyn is being set up as very knowledgeable and also having been to Asshai. Quaithe is capable of using glass candles too it seems. And we have not seen yet what the likes of Morna or perhaps even Val can do. Mother Mole had powerful visions. The Ghost of High Heart has revealed much and more. And advised Aegon V on how to hatch dragons perhaps. Though fucked that up royaly it seems. And Alys wow, there is a woman with some power. Lets wait to see shall we before we go claiming Melisandre as the most powerful sorceress. I am not trying to dismiss Melisandre's abilities to be clear. But the evidence in the text tells us she has been manipulating people to believe she has more power than she does or rather to be awed by her use of magic in order to convince others of R'hllor's powers. And keep her place as high priestess and #1 advisor to Stannis Baratheon in order to facilitate him as AAR and defeat The Great Other as she truly believes in these deities. I think I already covered the inconsistencies in GRRM's magic earlier. But hey How is LSH "alive" if she has to breath to remain animated as a fire wight? She should not be able to be brought back if the rules are that a fire wight needs to breath therefore they clearly don't need to breath, which is in line what he said re hearts and blood etc. LSH can't talk properly because her vocal cords were cut, she can only make a gravelly indicated of her will. But we know from Beric that Fire wights can talk just fine if this has not occurred. That is simple. her ruby is described as pulsing strongly after she drinks of the wine. This is her glamour working overtime to hide the effects of the strangler. Indeed he takes this as proof of the sorcerers power and is awed. But the author is using this to convey information to us via his characters. That is how writing works. You want to establish a fact without the characters themselves being aware of it so you have to find a way to convey information to your readers inadvertently. So GRRM has established a type of wight where bodily needs no longer exist in world. And he wants the reader to work out this character is one of those wights. But the wights are non known to the other characters around him, nor does he want that wight to be revealed to them. So he simply has one of those characters point out that the survival of that character would be impossible due to those bodily functions. Such as drinking sea water will kill you. But if you don't need water to survive then it isn't a problem. And he sets the scene to reveal the lack of another of those bodily functions - sleep by describing Moqorro as clinging to a spar we have all seen Titanic, right. Then he nails it home by describing the clothes as rags showing that he had no where to secrete food or water prior to the storm which would be secure in order to sustain himself. What Victarion knows or does not know of sorcery is irrelevant . It is what the author wants to convey that is important in establishing Moqorro's status. I agree. It's a real stretch but GRRM doesn't want us to peek behind the curtain too much so we have to go with it. My best explanation which allows me to go with it is that Benerro had multiple priests working on it and somehow ascertained from that the precise location and timing. It's a case of just having to accept something. And he's told us there are times we have to do that. Like the sheer absurdity of the size of the wall. Or the distances, or Tyrion's acrobatics. How do we know that hadn't been ascertained by a group effort too. But yeah Moqorro is a magic user too he may well have seen those other ships himself and worked out locations etc through I don't know. Astronomy ?? Again we sometimes have to go with the flow. Maybe GRRM will give us a clue later as to how he is so crazy good at this. Because I'm not keen on making too many predictions without in text back up. That is the path to la la land theories. Not really. I mean in the absence of a killing blow; which again I discussed up post, they go on forever. If we look at the multiple historical characters who are said to have lived for hundreds of years it seems to suggest that there is a way in which you can prolong your life via magic. And this fire kiss which we know about and is an established way to do that. Mel being hundreds of years old and displaying all the characteristics of a fire wight kinda bridges that gap. Also the fact that the woods witch at the Whispers seems to have used it to animate severed heads establishes the whole wtf aspect of this whole thing as being nothing to do with actual life. You can cut a wights head off and they "die" but you can then breath the flame into a severed head and it will "live" this is even sort of foreshadowed by Arya asking about bringing back a man whose had his head cut off. The words on the side of the horn are written by people who are magic users though not an omni knowing being. The author wrote those words with the intention of both telling us something and them having been set down by men in world who maybe know everything he does about his magic or maybe don't. I'd bet on the latter given the way GRRM likes to be realistic about these things. Thoros can do the kiss but has no idea of it's full potential, or how it works, and he believes it is a prayer to a god who is unlikely in the extreme to really exist. If the words mortal refer to non dragonlords will die if they blow this horn. Then how on earth do dragonlords survive the horn? They are not really any better than any other magic imbued person. They have magic in their blood but so do wargs and seers and green dreamers and many others. The horn sets you on fire from the inside out. Only someone who has fire inside them is surviving that. This isn't a safety net that takes advantage of what people believe about each other ie: those dragon lords are not like us mortal men they are gods who walk amongst us so I can't blow their horn and live it tells me so on the side. This is a real safety net that actually burns you up. And would burn Dany up just like it does the thrall cos she isn't fire proof. She survived the pyre because of a one of magical event; which many have worked out was MMD's singing being a protection spell that wanged off and protected Dany instead. Aerion Brightflame was not fire proof from the inside either cos when he drank that wildfire he burnt from the inside out. Egg burned and his sons burned. Aerea was consumed from the inside by some strange fire magic or creature. Jon burnt his hand, Dany was burnt in the fighting pits. Rhaenyra was burnt by Sunfyre . Dragonlords have no immunity to fire. Am splitting this post here and will address this quote in the next post
  14. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Bowen's next decision

    Bowen Marsh et al will be relieved of their duties via Wun Wun. And any other Wildlings, Queens men or nights watch men hanging around the place. My guess is that they are all dead within the first two opening paragraphs of the first POV chapter at the Wall.
  15. The Weirwoods Eyes

    Is GRRM As Complex As You Believe He Is?

    And what evidence is there for any of this? What evidence is there that he let himself be captured? Or that he knew of the tunnels, or that Tywin would have what he was after or have left it in the tower? Tywin has not been hand of the King in over 15 years! What evidence is there that he deliberately placed himself with the NW Or that he went through Tywin's belongings in Harrenhall. Especially as by the time he gets there, again, Tywin is not in residence there. Roose Bolton is. What evidence is there that this thing he thought Tywin had(no evidence points to him thinking Tywin has anything) is now in the citadel? How is Jaquen finding the thing he is clearly in Old Town to get; given that he has travelled there of his own free will as opposed to being a captive, and deliberately taken a face which allows him access. evidence that he was in the black cells deliberately? Or that his superiors sent him to the RK? There are a few theories as to what he is after in Old Town. What evidence is there that your own idea is the most plausible? You can not just present a theory as fact and provide zero text support.
×