The Riverlands Web V.4

[Le Cygne]

These Bits are Made for Walkin'... I'm still wondering how GRRM will handle the unkiss. Sansa: "Remember that time you kissed me?" Would he blow it and say he never did, or would he just go along with it. He'd probably blow it.

[LongRider]

I don't think he'd blow it. What an opening! Hmmm, barely remember that Sansa, how about a reminder?

:love:

[Booknerd2]

These Bits are Made for Walkin'... I'm still wondering how GRRM will handle the unkiss. Sansa: "Remember that time you kissed me?" Would he blow it and say he never did, or would he just go along with it. He'd probably blow it.

Love the song! LOL!

It is very much the same thing with Arya and Gendry as it is with Sandor and Sansa. The imposed, created, dramatic separations. Time works wonders…it is what both pairs needed.

Tension and excitement was built for both the reader and it will most likely be the same for the characters.

Sandor thought he would never see her again. And next time he will be older and wiser, with issues dealt with. Sinatra has a beautiful song called "The Second Time Around" that just popped into my head. It even mentions "feet on the ground" and "not falling." And she will be even more beautiful, and he gets a second chance to fix things, act better, and even maybe help her. His biggest regret is not saving her, and that might get sorta remedied. But, she may even help him this time around too. And Arya made the greatest choice ever by not giving him "mercy" and erasing him from her list. And she doesn't even know it.

And obviously all of Sansa's thinking about him is building, so when she does see him again, forget it. Plus, anything to do with her not remembering things as they happened says a lot, "wishful thinking?" and anything to do with the unkiss, tells us how she took her memories of him and beat them and twisted them into what she thinks happened, which all have to do with longing, love, caring, affection. She seems to miss him and wishes things were different. And the comparing him and his supposed "happenings" to other people, well comparisons and having someone on your mind, just speaks for itself.

It is like a young person fantasizing about a crush on someone so distant.

And forget Arya and Gendry. She keeps showing us that she has not forgotten the Pack. No matter where she is and what she is doing. Lommy came back to her and shook her by the shoulders deep inside, and I think something with Hot Pie and Gendry may jolt her too. And there are signs as she gets pissed when his helm is taken and Dunsen appears on her list. She refuses to leave him when he gets captured. And also just their back and forth comical stuff on the Road.

His is different. He has had a lot of time to think as she was taken abruptly, after words were exchanged, and he has had time to think and miss her. Really, they are looking for her, so it is in his face everyday at the Orphanage. As always, we see he isn't doing to well in his cameo in 4 and all that demonstrates. He lost the only person he bonded with. That he cared for and tried to protect. That was good to him despite their different beginnings in life, and the ones such as birth and breeding that so many in that world put such a high emphasis on. They had created a little bubble on the road for a spell were none of that mattered, as long as you showed your worth, mettle, and pulled your weight. How could anyone else ever be what the other was to each other? That is the question I always carry, and my answer is: They can't; ever. There is no replacement for that, which he shows us in book 4. He has bonded with no one at that point and is very different.

They shared a lot of fear, life and death experiences, protecting and trying to save each other, funny moments too, and their identity secrets, and that is going to be one hell of a meeting too. It is not so much now for her that she is conscious of, but I think it will be. I think it will unfold for her as Sansa's had. It is in there. But it is more about what happens down the road with such a foundation and history created for them. And she can always be "Arya" warts and all in front of him, and that is a rare gift. He accepted it and relished it from day one. Nobody can top that.

[Booknerd2]

Post Question #19 – Freyed Around the Edges

Tomorrow is nothing, today is too late; the good lived yesterday – Marcus Aurelius

How every true for Walder and his House, and for what they did to the Starks and some of the others at the Red Wedding. Well, and other stuff too, far too many to mention.

Heh…it is about time this guy was talked about.

Hoster dubbed him with a brilliant nickname. He is late when needed/required and damn is he old, the nonagenarian. Unfortunately, he would repeat the same stalling for benefits with Edmure Tully too.

A little late in covering him, but I am sure he won’t mind, he knows how to wait and be late to one’s advantage, but better late than never. He just doesn’t like it if someone else does it that isn’t him, but if he feels slighted by not appearing earlier…well, than I might just have a problem coming my way.

I think Dunk said it all. Even 80 some odd years ago he was a major pain in the ass and the future didn’t look so great. He was 4 than…in his nineties now; I see no difference.

Oh, the mistakes he has made…if this guy could stand up without assistance he would kick himself.

And the Late Lord Frey Death Watch commences amongst his relatives. Not just as time passes and he gets older, but some of the next in line as Lord Frey have been disappearing or confirmed to be dead, and there are constant shifts as the succession moves up, and others still plot to takeover or move behind a particular member of House Frey. And I am sure the treachery plans change as well as new developments in the next in line pool go.

Many are prepared for an implosion, an every Frey for himself type of deal eventually, which very well may be the case, but seriously, they have enough external problems going on now too.

Many did not respect or hold the House in any esteem before or ever, the Red Wedding and the Breach of Guest Right just makes it worse.

It shows people they have no honor and they cannot be trusted, they may even be cursed, so why even deal with them? And if they can be thrown under the oxcart, so be it. More for "us," such are the games for thrones.

And some, especially many in the North and Riverlands who lost family and loved ones, well, they are beyond ever dealing with them again. They seek to destroy them, if anything, and some more heated and blatantly than others.

The Freys are in ruin. They no longer have friends if they ever truly did or allies. Truly the only thing they can do is take it a day at a time. And “alliances” are just paper tigers for show, right about now, and certainly are not dependable. Many have started and are going to jump the Frey ship in the future. They have truly isolated themselves from many in a bad way, the Bridge of the Crossing is suspended over a moat of shit that is going to hit the fan.

Guest Right is so important. The breach is terrible and everyone knows it, even if you don’t like or have any affinity for Starks, Tullys, and their banners present.

Breaking the Right, unspoken; you just don’t do it. It was created a long time ago to serve just that purpose. It is every lord’s, their families, and banners biggest fear come true. If you water down, really, I should say demolish, guest right and set a precedent, you threaten all families, and this is what pisses people off too.

I posted on a thread a long time ago and brought Guest Right Up. Let me throw that in:

That is another thing to consider too. They acted with the RW, and now there are consequences. They laid the path for the creation of UnCat. She is with the BWB and Freys are targeted. True, Beric revived her and Nymeria/Arya pulled her out.

That RW opened up multiple cans of worms they could never foresee or fathom. Hence the whole Manderly thing too.

Hindsight for the Freys, eventually, is going to be a real bitch.

It was a bold statement(s). That people are as angry or even more than the Starks are with Freys. More for Cat now as LS and Robb, for the short time he lived after the realization hit him of what was happening, because they knew more at the time of death, than the Stark kids do presently. That though it seems the children are separated and seemingly powerless, Ned is gone, Cat is UnCat, Winterfell and the old guard like Luwin and Rodrik, etc, it doesn't seem to be delaying any revenge against the Freys. They made too many enemies of too many people and Houses collectively.

It has been made clear that they are not getting away with anything.

The Freys whipped out a bold statement at a wedding where many were wiped out.

That is not in the cards for them. It is being turned on them slower, and steadier. They are getting wiped out so far by Manderly, whoever killed Walder at WF, and the BWB is targeting them too. And it will include others and not end there either.

Not one big blow and it is done like the RW. It can come from anywhere, but many predict a big event will happen down the road too, and as the numbers and disappearances tally at the Twins, the mental and psychological gist of it all, must have them completely ill at ease.

What I do understand is that Lord Walder seems to know outlaws are targeting his family and has sent people out to find them and try to deal with it. What I don’t understand, is if he knows who is behind it.

But certainly he will be very unprepared for the whole LS business…

It is totally a statement for the readers. And of course an allusion to Titus Andronicus, the Shakespeare play.

For every terrible deed that happened to the Northern families at the RW…it is being racked up. The leading family (their Starks) and their own,with being tricked, ambushed, and losing members, and guest right being thrown away. It is a message of revenge and for the future. For us, no one knows it…yet, in the book, but they are starting to get it.

That there are people out there in the North willing to be just as treacherous and balls to the wall as the Freys were. We know other crap is going down too with the Riverlanders, Webbers, and others.

Also, there is another facet to Manderly, just like we see with Doran too later on. Wyman came off as genial, jovial, and that he loves his food and feasts. But to not underestimate him. He can plot and plan to, and strike like a snake before you even realize it. Even his plan with sneaking out Davos…took balls, but he is willing to risk it and do what he feels needs to be done.

Now a little bit more on Guest Right, and how it is multipurpose.

There is not one lord in Westeros that does not have a job as lord that is very public and they have to constantly have allies, troops, all kinds of guests, kin, non-relatives, frenemies, you name it under their roof too. It is a constant, shitty, balancing act, very public with social aspects, requirements and etiquette to follow, that does leave them and their vulnerable and open. Their estates are always open, there are holiday, feasts, celebrations, and matters of ruling when people that you have good status or bad terms with, or that you know you don't really know ever if it will turn, or someone will turn on your, or not. So because of that there is Guest Right.

Now there are always aspects of honor and less tangible things tied to Guest Right as well.

Even families not involved don't ever want this shit to happen (RW) and don't like it because they worry about themselves. It breached the status quo and their peace of mind. You do NOT want this precedent. Whether we heard about it or not. That is what all the characters are thinking. That is why they are never going to get away from it.

Apparently, not the Freys, Boltons, and the rest. But they do know now. Everything is going quicker down hill since then. A big taboo/line was crossed.

Anyone involved is done, the inevitable is on the way. You don't touch guest right! And we have been told that many times in the series. You don't lure people and ambush them, without repercussions. A deal was in place. For whatever Robb did, Walder got a helluva nice consolation with a tie to Edumure and the Riverlands. Robb didn't leave him with his hand on his ass. He still had the Arya wedding promise. I mean, thank God my girl is out of it, but I don't remember Robb or Cat breaking it either, Walder did it after the RW. He could have had it good. And maybe more things down the road if Walder bitched them to death. That might have even, gave an ok to other Northern or Riverlands Houses to marry a Frey. He had it good, ruined that, and then brought about the CATalyst for the destruction of his House.

Walder Frey is causing his House's downfall due to extreme tunnel vision…and ego, spite, and other things.

It is not just Robb he was pissed at. I feel it had alot to do with Hoster too and old slights as well. This was totally to screw the Tullys and anyone that had spurned his proposals or slighted him in the past too.

He gets Edmure and Riverrun married with Frey. Always wanted it and he gets it. Robb is out, but if Arya surfaced he would have gotten that marriage with Stark and Winterfell too. Or something else maybe even... Possibly some extra family members married into Northern houses and off his hands, and other benefits, maybe even with Riverland houses because of his Edmure link.

Honestly, if nothing happened, meaning no RW, he could have milked things and bitched, and might have gotten another marriage or something else he wanted, and Robb and Cat, to smooth ruffled feathers, and to watch their backs always, might have considered it.

And when you see the shitstorm he caused because of RW…well, hindsight, again...

So a few things…

(ok, end of that post from elsewhere)

As news reaches him about he picking off of his family, what is he thinking about the deaths? It is ironic; he complained he had too many all the time.

It is interesting too, how many people are involved in the singular incidents. Cat and BWB, Manderly, the mystery of Little Walder also up North, etc. And we know more are coming.

Only the good die young…so true. He is like one of the top examples of this, that Late Lord Walder Frey.

So believe me at Thanksgiving I was checking wrists and sleeves as the side dishes got passed around, as one does forever after reading book 3… keeping an eye out, pricking up my ears for song lyric selection, jumping out of my seat when my dogs barked and look like they were trying to communicate something to me.

Damn it, Grey Wind!

Ugh, and how many noble fathers of different generations had called their daughters in to speak to them over the years.

“Yes, father.”

“I have arranged a marriage for you…”

You know highborn girls cowered and started sweating bullets every time they heard the last Lady Frey died.

“Oh, no, not….him?”

How many sisters, female cousins, friends, hi-fived each other and fist-bumped and breathed a sigh of relief when the engaged lady’s name was announced, and they would NOT be perchance in the running/pool of possibly marrying Lord Walder?

Tywin lost his shit over Genna at 10. He knew. Can’t say I blame him. Might be the only thing we agree upon. Oh, and we both think his grandson was a punk ass. And his daughter should not be ruling, but well…

No more re-runs of Tales from the Crypt. Or that really bad movie “Nothing but Trouble.” They sort of remind me of book Walder Frey.

But yet again, casting makes one of its many brilliant calls here with David Bradley. He’s great in anything he does. He is the Filch of Harry Potter is my head, and he is perfect as Lord Walder. Within seconds of his appearance in GOT, Filch was forgotten about as he immersed himself as the pain in the ass, prickly, untrustworthy Walder. That is what a great actor can do. He did it.

Other stuff got me too:

I hate the cello, and I once thought it beautiful, that Rains of Castamere is hauntingly effective.

I will panic when lamb is passed around at Christams. Wait that is Easter….I have a few months.

Seeing blood red wine in a crystal goblet will make me queasy. I will have to pretend it came from a Sandor wineskin and suck it up.

Ok, so he is still actively ruling the Twins and is active in all House decisions as Lord of the Crossing, despite being old and physically weak.

He has been married 8 times and has multiple children both legitimate and not, so not only has he had children with all the Lady Freys but other women too. He is extremely fertile still, ugh! (the 8^th Lady Frey is with child) and he has been a widower many times over.

He will resent the many he has to look after, but he will take them on due to pride and respect for family, only his own blood, and has. He complains but seeks out marriages for them too, including grandchildren, and expects all family to be loyal and he will take care of them. No one gets turned out, not even the baseborn. He rules the crypt…er, roost.

Many enter the Frey rat race to gain his notice and attempt to win some favor, but, does it really happen? There are just a lot of Walders and Waldas walking around, both children and grandchildren and bastards. Some named after notable people like Cersei, Tytos, Tywin, and even Targaryens.

Neglected attention wise? Yes. Does he seem to care if they don’t get along and support each other after he is gone. I am not sure he is concerned, and that is a grave misstep. We have already heard of the plotting going on.

Also, nothing pisses him off more than a slight as poor Robb and Catelyn learned the hard way.

And he resented Hoster Tully especially for not tying their Houses together years ago with a marriage, especially with Edmure.

But even he gets that wish through coercion later on and through Robb’s marrying Jeyne Westerling, the very brief Queen of the North. A slight. That many paid dearly for hence the RW. But so will he. And his House and it has already started.

A few things:

He has sent out people to look for the BWB outlaws.

What are his thoughts on his breach of guest right? Does he regret it now? Too stupid or prideful to air that, if true, and if he is wise enough to notice or care?

Does he really feel ok around Bolton and Lannister and others? He has to know that will turn on him if the need arises. Does he really feel that insular anymore?

So this is long and I will leave it at that. Anything else regarding him we can just bring up in the RW thread.

Especially what we think will happen next and what will happen to both him and his House in the future.

[OldGimletEye]

A few things:

He has sent out people to look for the BWB outlaws.

What are his thoughts on his breach of guest right? Does he regret it now? Too stupid or prideful to air that, if true, and if he is wise enough to notice or care?

Does he really feel ok around Bolton and Lannister and others? He has to know that will turn on him if the need arises. Does he really feel that insular anymore?

So this is long and I will leave it at that. Anything else regarding him we can just bring up in the RW thread.

Especially what we think will happen next and what will happen to both him and his House in the future.

As usual, good post booknerd2. A couple of comments on the guest right and the RW: I am of a mind to think that Walder is just completely cluess about the long term effects of the RW. I'd argue that he does seem to care about the long term welfare of his house. Why else would he be so anxious to procure favorable marriages? If he does care about the long term welfare of his house, then his attitude towards the RW can't just be explained by simply not giving a crap because of his advanced age.

Obviously, breaking the guest right is a huge taboo in Westeros. The effect of breaking it is going to likely make the name of his house mudd for generations. Even though the sanctitity of the guest right is steeped in tradition and mystery, I think it has a practical purpose, which is that it makes negotiations possible. With Walder breaking the guest right, it's going to be hard for House Frey to negotiate in the future. Accordingly, the RW had a very negative practical effect that goes beyond just breaking an ancient taboo.

The uphot is that Walder, I think, might have gotten a bit of a euphoria from the short term victory of the RW, but hasn't really considered the RW's long term consequences for his house. At least this is what I am thinking at the present.

[Karmarni]

I'm catching up. booknerd2, great post on Lord Walder. He will get his due, eventually. But the Freys have infiltrated so many houses they will live on in some way, maybe just weasely chins.

First, I think a pool on who will be the next Lord Frey is in order. There are so many possibilities!

Second, when and how will the shit hit the fan for the Crossing? I think the bastards are the answer. Especially the one (name? not remembering - I'd suck at that name them game) that is Edmure's friend that left early. Where is he?

Gosh, AFfC is such a lost identity, mistaken identity, where the hell are they book. I hope TWoW wraps some of that up. It's almost impossible to keep track. Someone must have a map somewhere with pins all over it for where they are. Actually, I think I've seen that somewhere.

Sandor Frey. The name drop is enough - and that he's Donnel's squire. It'll come up. Sansa will be tongue-tied for that, I'd say.

[Booknerd2]

As usual, good post booknerd2. A couple of comments on the guest right and the RW: I am of a mind to think that Walder is just completely cluess about the long term effects of the RW. I'd argue that he does seem to care about the long term welfare of his house. Why else would he be so anxious to procure favorable marriages? If he does care about the long term welfare of his house, then his attitude towards the RW can't just be explained by simply not giving a crap because of his advanced age.

Obviously, breaking the guest right is a huge taboo in Westeros. The effect of breaking it is going to likely make the name of his house mudd for generations. Even though the sanctitity of the guest right is steeped in tradition and mystery, I think it has a practical purpose, which is that it makes negotiations possible. With Walder breaking the guest right, it's going to be hard for House Frey to negotiate in the future. Accordingly, the RW had a very negative practical effect that goes beyond just breaking an ancient taboo.

The uphot is that Walder, I think, might have gotten a bit of a euphoria from the short term victory of the RW, but hasn't really considered the RW's long term consequences for his house. At least this is what I am thinking at the present.

Thanks!

You brought up a lot of great points!

-Yeah, he did not think this through. Now he is pretty alert still, but is it slipping? He is more afraid of Lannister/Boltons? He really had it out for the Robb thing and that resentment of the Tullys went that deep? He was trying to make the "tough guy" statement for his House and miscalculated? I think it was said the early plan was to ransom Cat, maybe there were other things that didn't go according to plan? He really seemed not think down the road, for whatever reason. And you wonder if any of his family, if there was even that one person that went, "Uh, Lord Father…maybe we should, er, think this through? They were probably afraid. Of him, that he would not listen, or even if his other relatives that would get with the program might isolate them and use that as a "Lord of the Flies" moment. That has to be dangerous. This thing was kept under wraps and to show indecision, would not be good.

-The marriages and many things he does seem to be looking toward the future preservation of his House, but also appearances. That he looks like a Grand lord and he seems to always be looking to gain more prestige, and it is a never ending well to tap for him. So a lot can still be ego over practicality.

- He may just not get how important Guest Right is, and he just didn't have long term foresight. Also, totally true about negotiations. Who would ever sit down to talk at a table with him again? And like we have seen with lannister comments, now it is an excuse, because of the breach, to drop the Freys as deadweight. And they can, because now the Freys have no one to go to.

-It was very much about "euphoria" in a relatively short term sense. He got what he wanted. But man, when the hindsight kicks in…forget it.

So, yeah, I agree with everything you said.

[Booknerd2]

I'm catching up. booknerd2, great post on Lord Walder. He will get his due, eventually. But the Freys have infiltrated so many houses they will live on in some way, maybe just weasely chins.

First, I think a pool on who will be the next Lord Frey is in order. There are so many possibilities!

Second, when and how will the shit hit the fan for the Crossing? I think the bastards are the answer. Especially the one (name? not remembering - I'd suck at that name them game) that is Edmure's friend that left early. Where is he?

Gosh, AFfC is such a lost identity, mistaken identity, where the hell are they book. I hope TWoW wraps some of that up. It's almost impossible to keep track. Someone must have a map somewhere with pins all over it for where they are. Actually, I think I've seen that somewhere.

Sandor Frey. The name drop is enough - and that he's Donnel's squire. It'll come up. Sansa will be tongue-tied for that, I'd say.

Thanks!

I don't see them obviously being wiped out in entirely either for just what you said. Some are elsewhere, had nothing to do with it, are really through marriage, part of another House family now. We have Luceon who is a septon and Robert training to be a maester, I think they're out of bounds.

Yeah, we have to do that. Check out who is in the running for the Frey men. You know what I can't find either? I would love a list right smack in front of who died as Freys already. It is noted in the wiki, but it is spread out.

We do have to watch any Free that was so low in succession and has nothing to lose, or was not for this to begin with, such as bastards, maybe, or others. They are not all bad the Freys. Ooh, I blanked on Edmure's friend, I have to look at that.

But I can't wait for someone to take that stupid deed/piece of paper and make Emmon eat it and kick him the ass. So annoying.

The Sandor Frey thing in the Vale….well, it is too much.

[LongRider]

Great posts Bookie, OGE and Karmarni!

booknerd2 said "Many did not respect or hold the House in any esteem before or ever, the Red Wedding and the Breach of Guest Right just makes it worse.

It shows people they have no honor and they cannot be trusted, they may even be cursed, so why even deal with them? And if they can be thrown under the oxcart, so be it. More for "us," such are the games for thrones.

And some, especially many in the North and Riverlands who lost family and loved ones, well, they are beyond ever dealing with them again. They seek to destroy them, if anything, and some more heated and blatantly than others."

A good chapter to read on these themes is where Jaime reaches Riverrun when Edmure surrenders the castle. He treats the Freys at the siege like shit! And they're on the same side. LOL! So even the allies to the Frey's hate the Freys now.

Double crossed indeed! :fencing:

[Booknerd2]

Great posts Bookie, OGE and Karmarni!

A good chapter to read on these themes is where Jaime reaches Riverrun when Edmure surrenders the castle. He treats the Freys at the siege like shit! And they're on the same side. LOL! So even the allies to the Frey's hate the Freys now.

Double crossed indeed! :fencing:

That is a great example, and that is still one chapter that makes me a bit uneasy about the future.

Now, he has changed, and he is pretty great with Brienne. I'm onboard with his completely disregarding Cersei's letter...

But still, I 'm like: So, have you dropped the chip off your shoulder yet?

Or is his contempt for the Freys just that overpowering?

[LongRider]

Jaime may have trouble with vows, but I believe he respects Guest Rights and understands the need for it. So he's offended by the RW and didn't like Frey's much to begin with, even tho there are a few married to Lannisters. The RW amplified the negative feelings that many had about the Freys, even those on the same side.

[Karmarni]

Jaime's chip is still intact. Too bad chips are on shoulders and not on hands! But like plenty of other characters I think the change is gradual and where they end up might be somewhere close to where they want to be, but not all the way. Not a complete transformation, I mean.

[LongRider]

The Freys are discovering that 'hanging' around the Riverlands is not as much fun as it used to be.* Some of the Freys that were sent away by Jaime were found hanged by the BWB. And the BF did what he could to keep Jaime's chip intact.

What will be interesting is Jaime's reaction if he meets up with LSH. He just might want to watch that smart mouth of his.

*please forgive me for that terrible pun

[Le Cygne]

Sandor thought he would never see her again. And next time he will be older and wiser, with issues dealt with. Sinatra has a beautiful song called "The Second Time Around" that just popped into my head. It even mentions "feet on the ground" and "not falling." And she will be even more beautiful, and he gets a second chance to fix things, act better, and even maybe help her. His biggest regret is not saving her, and that might get sorta remedied. But, she may even help him this time around too. And Arya made the greatest choice ever by not giving him "mercy" and erasing him from her list. And she doesn't even know it.

And obviously all of Sansa's thinking about him is building, so when she does see him again, forget it. Plus, anything to do with her not remembering things as they happened says a lot, "wishful thinking?" and anything to do with the unkiss, tells us how she took her memories of him and beat them and twisted them into what she thinks happened, which all have to do with longing, love, caring, affection. She seems to miss him and wishes things were different. And the comparing him and his supposed "happenings" to other people, well comparisons and having someone on your mind, just speaks for itself.

Awwwww, I love all of that. I love the way you talk about stories! I could just listen forever...

The funny thing is, the more Sandor messes up, the more Sansa seems to like him. He can't seem to go wrong.

I also love the contrast with Gendry and Edric Dayne.

Edric was such a whiny baby about the rain, and Arya didn't want to throw anything at him or kick him! Not a good sign.

And Edric couldn't think of anything to say to Ned.

Oh, and Sinatra, love him to pieces. What about this one, What is this thing called love?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIOJ2gkrNvc

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Nice post on Walder and the Frey's bookie ! And some great chat on the back of that, good work people. :)

First of all, I found this list on another forum, I'm not quite sure on the etiquette of promoting other forums, so I won't risk it.

I thought I'd post the list here as it contains line of succession, as well as the various Frey deaths , in one list. [ For anyone wondering about the woman on the list, they do inherit if there is no male heir, under Andal tradition.] EG: If the Twins goes to Edwyn, Walda would inherit unless Edwyn has a/some sons, and so on.

I have had a quick look at some other succession lists, and they seem to be the same. However, if anyone has a query, please bring it up. If we can get confirmation, this is a nice list to have handy. I will list the dead Frey's from the Wiki after, to have them in one place as well.

House Frey of the Crossing succession list
Walder > Stevron > Ryman > Edwyn > Walda (Edwyn's daughter...) > "Black" Walder > Petyr "Pimple" > Perra > Aegon/"Jinglebell" > Walton > Steffon > Bryan > "Fair" Walda > Maegelle > Walder Vance > Patrek Vance > Marianne Vance > Emmon > Cleos > Tywin/"Ty" > Willem > Lyonel > Tion > "Red" Walder > Aenys > Aegon "Bloodborn" > Rhaegar > Robert > Jonos > "White" Walda > Jared > Tytos > Zachery > Zia > Kyra > Walder Goodbrook > Jeyne Goodbrook > Septon Luceon3 > Hosteen > Arwood > Androw > Alyn > Ryella > Hostella > Symond > Alesander > Bradamar > Alyx > Danwell > Merrett > "Little" Walder > Amerei > "Fat" Walda > Marissa > Geremy > Sandor > Cynthea > Raymund > Robert > Malwyn > Jaime > Tywin > Serra > Sarra > Cersei/"Little Bee" > "Lame" Lothar > Tysane > Walda > Emberlei > Leana > Jammos > "Big" Walder > Dickon > Mathis > Whalen > Hoster > Merianne > Perwyn > Benfrey > Osmund > "Deaf" Della > Maester Willamen3 > Olyvar > Wendel > Colmar > Waltyr > Elmar > Perriane > Harys Haigh > Walder Haigh > Donnel Haigh > Alyn Haigh > Lythene > Damon Vypren > Elyana Vypren > Rickard Wylde > Morya > Robert Brax > Walder Brax > Jon Brax > Tyta "the Maid" > Roslin > Roslin's unborn baby with Edmure > Arwyn > Shirei > "Bastard" Walder Rivers1 > Aemon Rivers1 > Walda Rivers (daughter of Aemon)1 > Walda Rivers (sister of Aemon)1 > other various bastards

List of dead Frey's

1.] Stevron : Died after Battle of Oxcross
2.] Ryman : Slain by BWB in RL's
3.] Petyr : Slain by BWB in RL's
4.] Aegon : Killed at RW by Catelyn Stark
5.] Maegelle: Died in childbirth
6.] Cleos : Slain in RL's by Brave Companions
7.] Tion : Killed at RR on orders of Rickard Karstark
8.] Aenys : Fell into pit trap at Winterfell
9.] Rhaegar: Frey pie anyone ?
10] Jared : Frey pie, seconds ?
11] Tytos : Killed at RW
12] Symond : Frey pie.......yeah.....
13] Merrett : Killed in the RL's by BWB
14] Little Walder: Murdered at Winterfell
15] Geremy : Drowned
16] Benfrey : Killed at RW

Hope this list helps, and again any corrections welcome. :D

[Le Cygne]

And the BF did what he could to keep Jaime's chip intact.

He was doing the Ned Stark thing to him again. Kingslayer. Jaime just shuts down when they do that.*

*except Brienne, then it secretly turns him on, because he gets to call her wench, and we know how much he loves that...

I'm about to get romantic here, so everyone who hates romance close your ears...

But I so hope they are off banging somewhere instead of walking into an ambush. Gentler than Cersei, he's doing the Sansa thing that she does with Sandor, everything reminds him of Brienne, and he doesn't even know he's doing it... Rose Papillon did a funny piece where he's telling Brienne about his dream and Brienne is like, so wait, we are the only two in the dream naked? :lol:

[Booknerd2]

The Freys are discovering that 'hanging' around the Riverlands is not as much fun as it used to be.* Some of the Freys that were sent away by Jaime were found hanged by the BWB. And the BF did what he could to keep Jaime's chip intact.

What will be interesting is Jaime's reaction if he meets up with LSH. He just might want to watch that smart mouth of his.

*please forgive me for that terrible pun

Seriously, if he sees Catelyn as Stoneheart, it may throw him that he shuts up.

But he does have a mouth, which makes me hope he doesn't notice Gendry and blurt anything out. But it is obvious Brienne won't let it drop, so maybe she tells him and has him shut up? She knew enough not to try to talk to Gendry in front of anyone before. He had a long time to look at Robert and dislike him, and that face is surely imprinted on his mind.

[Booknerd2]

Awwwww, I love all of that. I love the way you talk about stories! I could just listen forever...

The funny thing is, the more Sandor messes up, the more Sansa seems to like him. He can't seem to go wrong.

I also love the contrast with Gendry and Edric Dayne.

Edric was such a whiny baby about the rain, and Arya didn't want to throw anything at him or kick him! Not a good sign.

And Edric couldn't think of anything to say to Ned.

Oh, and Sinatra, love him to pieces. What about this one, What is this thing called love?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIOJ2gkrNvc

Edric bitching about his hair and Gendry mouthing off is hilarious.

He didn't like him anyway, but Edric just fed him the ammunition. LOL!

[Booknerd2]

Nice post on Walder and the Frey's bookie ! And some great chat on the back of that, good work people. :)

First of all, I found this list on another forum, I'm not quite sure on the etiquette of promoting other forums, so I won't risk it.

I thought I'd post the list here as it contains line of succession, as well as the various Frey deaths , in one list. [ For anyone wondering about the woman on the list, they do inherit if there is no male heir, under Andal tradition.] EG: If the Twins goes to Edwyn, Walda would inherit unless Edwyn has a/some sons, and so on.

I have had a quick look at some other succession lists, and they seem to be the same. However, if anyone has a query, please bring it up. If we can get confirmation, this is a nice list to have handy. I will list the dead Frey's from the Wiki after, to have them in one place as well.

House Frey of the Crossing succession list

Walder > Stevron > Ryman > Edwyn > Walda (Edwyn's daughter...) > "Black" Walder > Petyr "Pimple" > Perra > Aegon/"Jinglebell" > Walton > Steffon > Bryan > "Fair" Walda > Maegelle > Walder Vance > Patrek Vance > Marianne Vance > Emmon > Cleos > Tywin/"Ty" > Willem > Lyonel > Tion > "Red" Walder > Aenys > Aegon "Bloodborn" > Rhaegar > Robert > Jonos > "White" Walda > Jared > Tytos > Zachery > Zia > Kyra > Walder Goodbrook > Jeyne Goodbrook > Septon Luceon3 > Hosteen > Arwood > Androw > Alyn > Ryella > Hostella > Symond > Alesander > Bradamar > Alyx > Danwell > Merrett > "Little" Walder > Amerei > "Fat" Walda > Marissa > Geremy > Sandor > Cynthea > Raymund > Robert > Malwyn > Jaime > Tywin > Serra > Sarra > Cersei/"Little Bee" > "Lame" Lothar > Tysane > Walda > Emberlei > Leana > Jammos > "Big" Walder > Dickon > Mathis > Whalen > Hoster > Merianne > Perwyn > Benfrey > Osmund > "Deaf" Della > Maester Willamen3 > Olyvar > Wendel > Colmar > Waltyr > Elmar > Perriane > Harys Haigh > Walder Haigh > Donnel Haigh > Alyn Haigh > Lythene > Damon Vypren > Elyana Vypren > Rickard Wylde > Morya > Robert Brax > Walder Brax > Jon Brax > Tyta "the Maid" > Roslin > Roslin's unborn baby with Edmure > Arwyn > Shirei > "Bastard" Walder Rivers1 > Aemon Rivers1 > Walda Rivers (daughter of Aemon)1 > Walda Rivers (sister of Aemon)1 > other various bastards

List of dead Frey's

1.] Stevron : Died after Battle of Oxcross

2.] Ryman : Slain by BWB in RL's

3.] Petyr : Slain by BWB in RL's

4.] Aegon : Killed at RW by Catelyn Stark

5.] Maegelle: Died in childbirth

6.] Cleos : Slain in RL's by Brave Companions

7.] Tion : Killed at RR on orders of Rickard Karstark

8.] Aenys : Fell into pit trap at Winterfell

9.] Rhaegar: Frey pie anyone ?

10] Jared : Frey pie, seconds ?

11] Tytos : Killed at RW

12] Symond : Frey pie.......yeah.....

13] Merrett : Killed in the RL's by BWB

14] Little Walder: Murdered at Winterfell

15] Geremy : Drowned

16] Benfrey : Killed at RW

Hope this list helps, and again any corrections welcome. :D

Thanks! Great finds!

This is what I always hoped to see: Easy to read death list and succession list. Lovin' the Frey Pie commentary...

Whew…so the Frey Death Count is at 16? It is funny, you see the names, but you don't realize how many until it is all out in front.

Wow, Lord Walder…if only I could be a fly on the wall at the Twins….because right about now, I think 12 should have been confirmed dead to him, with the 3 (Frey Pie) still being considered a "disappearance" and I am not sure timeline wise if news of Little Walder would have reached him yet. Er, right, guys?

Oh, and poor Maegelle died giving birth, so she is totally a different story.

[Le Cygne]

And I just have to share this bit of Stranger badassery:

Clegane cut Stranger loose with a single slash of his sword and leapt onto his back. The courser knew what was wanted of him. He pricked up his ears and wheeled toward the charging destriers.

THIS is a fierce MF horse. He's like, let me at 'em, these charging destriers!