Ramsay's Penguins Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 The graphic comic for TSS also showed us the Redgrass Field, and revealed some more houses (semi-canon tho, since GRRM worked heavily with the artists, but random nevertheless). Orme and Pryor for Blackfyres, and Greenfield, Estern, Redfort, Shett and Musgood for Targs. Orme are a minor Reach house so that seems right enough, while Pryor is an island house like the Sunderlands, and that also works out. Greenfield and Estren are Westerlands, and presented as part of Maekar's anvil (crownlanders and westerlanders), while Redfort and Shett are part of Lord Arryn's van, and Musgood with Baelor and his hammer. Also wouldn't be surprised by Florents. Completes the Peake, Ball and Florent Florys the Fox trifecta too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikingkingq Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Ah, more info. Cool, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Actually, I believe the exact opposite happened: so many houses supported the Blackfyres in the Reach because they were unsatisfied with the ruling of the "stewards", and some of them wanted to take their place. So the Tyrells supported Daeron II to remain in power. I agree with this. In addition, the Reach is the heart of Westeros' chivalric traditions. They love tourneys and knighthood and all that more than the other realms. It makes a lot of sense for those kinds of folk to love Daemon. On top of that, the Reach hates Dorne, and Daeron had a Dornish wife, a Dornish looking heir, etc. A lot of reasons for them to choose the Black Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I agree with this. In addition, the Reach is the heart of Westeros' chivalric traditions. They love tourneys and knighthood and all that more than the other realms. It makes a lot of sense for those kinds of folk to love Daemon. On top of that, the Reach hates Dorne, and Daeron had a Dornish wife, a Dornish looking heir, etc. A lot of reasons for them to choose the Black Dragon. For these same reasons, I'd count some stormlanders (maybe even marcher lords) as supporting Blackfyre. It is a militaristic region, and there is just as little love for Dornish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikingkingq Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 For these same reasons, I'd count some stormlanders (maybe even marcher lords) as supporting Blackfyre. It is a militaristic region, and there is just as little love for Dornish. To quote the worldbook, p. 96: "Aegon turned his attention to Dorne, using the hatred for the Dornishmen that still burned in the marches, the stormlands, and the Reach." There's the natural constituency for Daemon Blackfyre right there. Why the Stormlands eventually backed Daeron I don't know, maybe they only did when a royal/Martell army marched north through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 To quote the worldbook, p. 96: "Aegon turned his attention to Dorne, using the hatred for the Dornishmen that still burned in the marches, the stormlands, and the Reach." There's the natural constituency for Daemon Blackfyre right there. Why the Stormlands eventually backed Daeron I don't know, maybe they only did when a royal/Martell army marched north through them. Yup, so stormlanders I do think at least some. Not all, but some, and I wonder what the Baratheons did... Daeron I suppose they supported, but a lord is little without his bannermen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Widow of Coldmoat Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 To quote the worldbook, p. 96: "Aegon turned his attention to Dorne, using the hatred for the Dornishmen that still burned in the marches, the stormlands, and the Reach." There's the natural constituency for Daemon Blackfyre right there. Why the Stormlands eventually backed Daeron I don't know, maybe they only did when a royal/Martell army marched north through them. Don't forget that Baelor Breakspear married a Dondarrion (and that almost certainly happened before the Blackfyre Rebellion) and Elaena married a Penrose, who was Daeron's Master of Coin. Daeron may also have arranged some strategic marriages between Dornish houses and marcher lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Don't forget that Baelor Breakspear married a Dondarrion (and that almost certainly happened before the Blackfyre Rebellion) and Elaena married a Penrose, who was Daeron's Master of Coin. Daeron may also have arranged some strategic marriages between Dornish houses and marcher lords. That marriage was probably a huge factor in keeping the marcher Lords loyal, though apart from Dondarrion we don't really know how it went. The Marcher Lords should be, on average, the ones who hate the Dornish the most. House Caron and House Swann, being the most ancient of Marcher Lords, are interesting questions. A rough way to look at it is: for the most part in the Stormlands, the closer to Storm's End/the Crownlands, the more likely they stayed loyal. The closer to Dorne, the more likely they fought for Daemon Blackfyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creganstark Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 That marriage was probably a huge factor in keeping the marcher Lords loyal, though apart from Dondarrion we don't really know how it went. The Marcher Lords should be, on average, the ones who hate the Dornish the most. House Caron and House Swann, being the most ancient of Marcher Lords, are interesting questions. A rough way to look at it is: for the most part in the Stormlands, the closer to Storm's End/the Crownlands, the more likely they stayed loyal. The closer to Dorne, the more likely they fought for Daemon Blackfyre. I think the marcher lords would hate the stony Dornish the most, since they are the ones they've been fighting for ages. The marcher lords and Reach lords didn't have this long standing enmity with the Martells. And the Yronwoods are the most powerful stony dornish house and backed Daemon, so their natural enemies - the marcher lords - would have backed Daeron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History of Westeros Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I think the marcher lords would hate the stony Dornish the most, since they are the ones they've been fighting for ages. The marcher lords and Reach lords didn't have this long standing enmity with the Martells. And the Yronwoods are the most powerful stony dornish house and backed Daemon, so their natural enemies - the marcher lords - would have backed Daeron. That's a good point, possibly. I'm not sure the Marcher lords make that distinction, to them it could be that Dornish are Dornish, or that they hate all Dornish but hate the Stony Dornishmen the most. But I could definitely see this being the case. I suppose it depends on the timing, as well. The Marcher Lords could've declared for Daemon before the Yronwoods did the same. But if the Yronwoods declared for Daemon early on, then the Marcher Lords might've gone the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 That's a good point, possibly. I'm not sure the Marcher lords make that distinction, to them it could be that Dornish are Dornish, or that they hate all Dornish but hate the Stony Dornishmen the most. But I could definitely see this being the case. I suppose it depends on the timing, as well. The Marcher Lords could've declared for Daemon before the Yronwoods did the same. But if the Yronwoods declared for Daemon early on, then the Marcher Lords might've gone the other way.But which is stronger, hatred for Yronwoods or hatred for Dorne? I reckons they might be split, or I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It would be interesting to know what the Yronwoods were fightng for, specially in the first rebellion. Of course they exected to replace the Martells as princes of Dorne, but had they agreed with Daemon that Dorne would remain independent? Or they were fine with joining the realm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Widow of Coldmoat Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I've considered the idea that Dornish independence was on the table, but I don't really think it makes much sense from a Blackfyre perspective. Thinking from the perspective of the Blackfyre loyalists, I get the impression that they were the same types (if not the same people) who were gung ho about Daeron's Conquest of Dorne or Aegon IV's poorly thought out war on Dorne. As much as many of those lords hated the Dornish, they still wanted to conquer Dorne. So I'd assume that the Blackfyre partisans wouldn't really want an independent Dorne and would much prefer a properly conquered and cowed Dorne. Based on that my guess would be that the Yronwoods would abet the Blackfyres conquest of Dorne and then become the Lord Paramount of a Dorne with their rivals properly dealt with, and a Dorne that was fully integrated into the realm. While the idea of a Yronwood-ruled independent Dorne makes a certain amount of sense, from the Yronwood perspective, their rule would still be somewhat tenuous, would it not? It's not like the Blackfyres would be properly able to maintain Yronwood rule in an independent Dorne without making Dorne a de facto vassal (a client state, in modern parlance). It seems to me that the Blackfyre side's objections to the Dornish was more their influence at court and, by extension, the degree of autonomy that Dorne had within the Seven Kingdoms rather than simply being part of the Seven Kingdoms. That combined with two of the four kings before Daeron II wanting to conquer Dorne (those kings being Daemon's father and uncle) leads me to believe they hadn't fully abandoned those ideas of conquering either. That Dorne had joined the Seven Kingdoms wasn't the problem, it was how they joined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I imagine that Bittersteel may have gone south to Dorne at one point during the rebellion, convincing the Yronwoods to close the Boneway and attacking a loyalist Martell host which was dispatched north to help Daeron II early in the war. I don't think the Yronwoods ever fought with other Blackfyre loyalists outside of Dorne - although this may have happened during the Third and Fourth Rebellion. After all, the Yronwoods supposedly 'rode besides Bittersteel in three Blackfyre Rebellions'. Those have to be the First, the Third, and the Fourth, as Bittersteel was not involved in the War of the Ninepenny Kings or the Second Rebellion (and we already know that the Yronwoods were not at Whitewalls). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Does rode beside Bittersteel literally mean, he was with this or just participated in BS rebellions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I interpret that in a way that the Yronwoods at least have to participate in Blackfyre Rebellions in which Bittersteel was also a part of. But it also could mean that they fought in the very same army in which Bittersteel was in. Since we don't know where Bittersteel was during most of the First Rebellion, him going to Dorne/do something with the Yronwoods is not unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Rightyo thank. It makes sense for Bitters to be in the Riverlands, but if Quentyn was traversing in the Westerlnads then not so much. It's just Daemon had two sons, and I'd imagine they also did something. And we know the Westerlings went downhill after the Dance, so maybe they were in a Balckfyre rebellion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 .And we know the Westerlings went downhill after the Dance, so maybe they were in a Balckfyre rebellion? Being in the wrong side of a BF rebellion would explain why they declined so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikingkingq Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It would be interesting to know what the Yronwoods were fightng for, specially in the first rebellion. Of course they exected to replace the Martells as princes of Dorne, but had they agreed with Daemon that Dorne would remain independent? Or they were fine with joining the realm? Uh....I don't think Daemon would have wanted Dorne to remain independent. I think his grievance was that he thought they should be conquered or at least brought in on the same terms as any other kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikingkingq Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I imagine that Bittersteel may have gone south to Dorne at one point during the rebellion, convincing the Yronwoods to close the Boneway and attacking a loyalist Martell host which was dispatched north to help Daeron II early in the war. I don't think the Yronwoods ever fought with other Blackfyre loyalists outside of Dorne - although this may have happened during the Third and Fourth Rebellion. After all, the Yronwoods supposedly 'rode besides Bittersteel in three Blackfyre Rebellions'. Those have to be the First, the Third, and the Fourth, as Bittersteel was not involved in the War of the Ninepenny Kings or the Second Rebellion (and we already know that the Yronwoods were not at Whitewalls). One way to reconcile that is that there may have been Yronwoods who followed Bittersteel over the sea. Pretty hard for the Yronwoods to have fought in the 4th Rebellion by marching up from Dorne, for example, as it was fairly short and all the way up on Massey's Hook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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