Houses in Blackfyre's Rebellion

[Vikingkingq]

I've considered the idea that Dornish independence was on the table, but I don't really think it makes much sense from a Blackfyre perspective. Thinking from the perspective of the Blackfyre loyalists, I get the impression that they were the same types (if not the same people) who were gung ho about Daeron's Conquest of Dorne or Aegon IV's poorly thought out war on Dorne. As much as many of those lords hated the Dornish, they still wanted to conquer Dorne. So I'd assume that the Blackfyre partisans wouldn't really want an independent Dorne and would much prefer a properly conquered and cowed Dorne. Based on that my guess would be that the Yronwoods would abet the Blackfyres conquest of Dorne and then become the Lord Paramount of a Dorne with their rivals properly dealt with, and a Dorne that was fully integrated into the realm.

While the idea of a Yronwood-ruled independent Dorne makes a certain amount of sense, from the Yronwood perspective, their rule would still be somewhat tenuous, would it not? It's not like the Blackfyres would be properly able to maintain Yronwood rule in an independent Dorne without making Dorne a de facto vassal (a client state, in modern parlance).

It seems to me that the Blackfyre side's objections to the Dornish was more their influence at court and, by extension, the degree of autonomy that Dorne had within the Seven Kingdoms rather than simply being part of the Seven Kingdoms. That combined with two of the four kings before Daeron II wanting to conquer Dorne (those kings being Daemon's father and uncle) leads me to believe they hadn't fully abandoned those ideas of conquering either. That Dorne had joined the Seven Kingdoms wasn't the problem, it was how they joined

Agreed. Either the Yronwoods wanted to replace the Martells outright, or...they could have divided Dorne to give the Yronwoods their own client kingdom.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Rightyo thank. It makes sense for Bitters to be in the Riverlands, but if Quentyn was traversing in the Westerlnads then not so much. It's just Daemon had two sons, and I'd imagine they also did something.

And we know the Westerlings went downhill after the Dance, so maybe they were in a Balckfyre rebellion?

Daemon's two eldest sons were 12 years old when they were killed at the Redgrass Field. I doubt they did anything more than squire for their father.

[Veltigar]

Daemon probably had other commanders as well. Just no one as important as Aegor or Fireball. The following names belong to the great knights of the realm who followed Daemon according to Ser Eustace Osgrey:

• Robb Reyne
  
• Gareth the Grey
  
• Ser Aubrey Ambrose
  
• Lord Gormon Peake
  
• Black Byren Flowers
  
• Redtusk
  

One or more of them probably raised hell in their own region before merging with the main army.

[Lord Varys]

I'd expect that Bittersteel had contacted some Blackfyre loyalists including the Yronwoods prior to the Fourth Rebellion, and if Daemon's landing came actually as a surprise to Aegon V, the Blackfyres would have had some time to rally various lords to their banner, and it is not that far from Yronwood to Massey's Hook if you have been told in advance that the Golden Company would land there.

It seems that this rebellion sucked for two reasons:

1. Only few lords were willing to commit themselves fully to the Blackfyre cause, and showed up on Massey's Hook.

2. Aegon V apparently chose the site of the Battle at the Wendwater Bridge, held the high ground/the bridge, and completely obliterated the Blackfyre host.

I guess Daemon/Bittersteel had a plan when they chose Massey's Hook as the site for their landing, and hoped they could quickly advance to KL from there.

[Vikingkingq]

It is quite far - almost a thousand miles. But more importantly, it's a thousand miles across the whole of the Stormlands, who aren't about to let a Dornish army march across their territory.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I have the impression House Tyrell was supporting Daemon, a lot of houses in the Reach supported the Blackfyre's cause. House Peake was always involved in the Blackfyre's side, so was House Osgrey that used to be powerful according to Ser Eustace. I wouldn't doubt the Tyrells were secretly helping Daemon and then changed sides once he died,House Tyrell is the great house that turns the cloak often in wars, they bend the knee easily, that's why I dislike them.

[Colonel Green]

Massey's Hook is actually a terrible place to land an invading army. It's a narrow spit of land that greatly minimizes your room to maneouvre and is easily cordoned off from the rest of Westeros.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Massey's Hook is actually a terrible place to land an invading army. It's a narrow spit of land that greatly minimizes your room to maneouvre and is easily cordoned off from the rest of Westeros.

Tis close to Essos, and only one house presides there. That house may have joined them. Easier to land there then in stormlands or Vale which is full of hostiles.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I have the impression House Tyrell was supporting Daemon, a lot of houses in the Reach supported the Blackfyre's cause. House Peake was always involved in the Blackfyre's side, so was House Osgrey that used to be powerful according to Ser Eustace. I wouldn't doubt the Tyrells were secretly helping Daemon and then changed sides once he died,House Tyrell is the great house that turns the cloak often in wars, they bend the knee easily, that's why I dislike them.

Like I said, it makes a lot more sense if it's the opposite. Daemon whole thing was being the greatest bad ass knight while the Tyrells are a house of stewards. Ser Eustace specifically mentions the Tyrells with disdain. And we know that houses that wanted Lord Paramount status- Yronwood, Bracken, Sunderland, Reyne, Peake, joined Daemon, and we have the Hightowers supporting him as well.

[Colonel Green]

The Tyrells had often served as stewards, but they had plenty of knights. The Lord of Highgarden at the time was Lord Leo "Longthorn" Tyrell, who was considered an excellent knight.

[Vikingkingq]

Massey's Hook is actually a terrible place to land an invading army. It's a narrow spit of land that greatly minimizes your room to maneouvre and is easily cordoned off from the rest of Westeros.

Always wondered why they never tried for say, Gulltown. If you can take the port, potentially you've got one hell of a foothold.

[Colonel Green]

I think Gulltown would be worse, in many ways. Apart from the difficulties of attacking a fortified port, once you do, your only land route involves a bunch of narrow mountain passes that should be pretty easy to defend.

[Lord Varys]

To give Bittersteel/Daemon III the benefit of the doubt:

They may have landed around the base of Massey's Hook rather than at the top. But I agree that I don't think that this whole thing ever looked all that much promising...

[Veltigar]

Gulltown, White Harbour and KL were all held by Targaryen loyalists (or the Targs themselves). We know the Shetts have always been loyal to the Targaryens, the Manderleys have always had a close relationship with the royal family (the only way they would support a Blackfyre is if the Starks sided with one of them) and KL is held by the Targaryens themselves.

As to the reason for the Fourth Rebellion, perhaps the Blackfyres had little to no time for setting up their landing. I think it would be strange if the GC had never known defeat in their long history in Essos. Perhaps the Blackfyres became persona non grata in Essos for a while and wanted to try their chances with a rebellion in Westeros. It's a bit of a longshot and not one of the likely possibilities, but perhaps it did play some sort of role in their fourth invasion.

[Vikingkingq]

I think Gulltown would be worse, in many ways. Apart from the difficulties of attacking a fortified port, once you do, your only land route involves a bunch of narrow mountain passes that should be pretty easy to defend.

Disagree about the land route. If you land at Gullstown, you're on the opposite side of those narrow mountain passes, in the heart of the fertile Vale. It's the Targs who would have to assault the Bloody Gate.

[History of Westeros]

Disagree about the land route. If you land at Gullstown, you're on the opposite side of those narrow mountain passes, in the heart of the fertile Vale. It's the Targs who would have to assault the Bloody Gate.

I never thought much about a Gulltown landing but I think I like it. If they could take it and move to secure the Bloody Gate quickly, they could potentially, (and possibly easily), keep loyalists out while they conquer the Vale, save perhaps the Eyrie itself, which would require a long siege obviously.

That said they needed to land somewhere relatively friendly and the Vale was one of the least friendly realms to the Blackfyres.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Sometimes I wonder if the male line of the Blackfyres are really dead. I saw the wiki that Maelys had a cousin, but there is no entry in the wiki about him. That's really odd, as he is not mentioned to have been slain in the last Blackfyre Rebellion (The War of Ninepenny Kings). Was Maelys really the last one of his the Blackfyre's male line?

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Sometimes I wonder if the male line of the Blackfyres are really dead. I saw the wiki that Maelys had a cousin, but there is no entry in the wiki about him. That's really odd, as he is not mentioned to have been slain in the last Blackfyre Rebellion (The War of Ninepenny Kings). Was Maelys really the last one of his the Blackfyre's male line?

Huh? The wiki does have an entry about Maelys's cousin (Daemon). Maelys killed Daemon to take control of the Golden Company. It's in the World Book.

[Lord Varys]

Invading the Vale by sea seems to be a really difficult enterprise, as there are only very few safe harbors, and the Arryns apparently guard their coasts very well even in this day.

Thus the Blackfyres would have needed allies among the Vale Lords which they apparently never had, as the Arryns were stalwart Targaryen loyalists during the First Rebellion.

[Colonel Green]

Disagree about the land route. If you land at Gullstown, you're on the opposite side of those narrow mountain passes, in the heart of the fertile Vale. It's the Targs who would have to assault the Bloody Gate.

There are a bunch of passes within the Vale of Arryn itself. They'd be bottled up on that little peninsula where Gulltown is.