Doran Martell: George ridiculing Sun Tzu?

[Consigliere]

I guess sitting on your arse and doing fuck all is not that bad afterall.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I guess sitting on your arse and doing fuck all is not that bad afterall.

It it makes it easier, think of it as calmly sitting on a bar stool while a bar fight rages out of control and brawlers are dropping like flies.

[Creticus]

It it makes it easier, think of it as calmly sitting on a bar stool while a bar fight rages out of control and brawlers are dropping like flies.

It's certainly a lot better than getting your face hammered in like the Riverlands. Then again, it's the Riverlands.

[Consigliere]

It it makes it easier, think of it as calmly sitting on a bar stool while a bar fight rages out of control and brawlers are dropping like flies.

Sitting out the Wot5K was a good move but hardly anything to crow about. Lysa Arryn managed to do the same thing. What about the time just following the Rebellion. Dorne was pissed at the deaths of Elia and her kids and Jon Arryn had to personally go to Dorne to appease them. Doran was never going to get Tywins head on a platter but he could have demanded justice in the form of Clegane and Lorch. The identity of who actually carried out the murder was an open secret. Instead Doran did nothing. So far he has been all talk, although I think that this is about to change and then we will see whether or not he is a top notch strategist.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Sitting out the Wot5K was a good move but hardly anything to crow about. Lysa Arryn managed to do the same thing. What about the time just following the Rebellion. Dorne was pissed at the deaths of Elia and her kids and Jon Arryn had to personally go to Dorne to appease them. Doran was never going to get Tywins head on a platter but he could have demanded justice in the form of Clegane and Lorch. The identity of who actually carried out the murder was an open secret. Instead Doran did nothing. So far he has been all talk, although I think that this is about to change and then we will see whether or not he is a top notch strategist.

At the end of Robert's Rebellion was just as bad a time for Dorne to make a move on the IT. They had lost plenty of troops with Leweylen, and they now faced an almost united Kingdom. Were they going to ally with the Tyrells against the Baratheons? LOL

Doran pretended to be "appeased", but started hatching his plans. Demanding heads from knights whose actions had been approved by King Robert would have been a mistake. Instead, Dorne has been flying under the radar for 16-18 years, just waiting for a Dragon to hatch and give them "justice".

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's certainly a lot better than getting your face hammered in like the Riverlands. Then again, it's the Riverlands.

It's not only the Riverlands

North: Ned Stark, dead. His hear, Robb, dead. Wife, dead. Kids, everywhere. People in the North will probably starve during winter. The Boltons are in charge. Men were killed in the RW and war, also, important Northern lords/heirs.

Iron Islands: Balon, dead. His heir, Reek-ed. The new head is an idiot. Men killed in war too. It looks like they might be facing a civil war (or whatever the IB call to that).

Vale: Jon, dead. Lysa, dead. Heir, alive, but is a weak child. LF is in charge. Men did not go to war, no lands savaged, apparently.

Westerlands: Tywin, dead. Kevan, dead. Jaime, maimed. Tyrion, exiled and wanted for murder. Cersei, on trial. Many lands were pillaged during the war, and men died fighting too.

Riverlands: Hoster, dead. Edmure, imprisoned and his lands and titles, stripped. A Frey is now the main Lord. Men and women (and children) killed, raped, their camps destroyed. Won't be good during winter.

Reach: Mace, alive. They've been attacked by Ironborn. They definitely lost some men, too, but their people seem to be fine, so far.

Baratheons: Robert, dead. Renly, dead. Stannis, is MIA in the North. Is practically without defences and it is being currently JonConed.

Dorne: Doran, alive. Heir, Arianne, alive. Men lost in war: 0. Lands savaged in war: 0.

So, yeah. Doran is the one who did wrong here.

[Creticus]

So, yeah. Doran is the one who did wrong here.

Yeah, even if Doran is the do-nothing that he's sometimes made out to be, he's come out ahead so far while all of the enemies that he would have had to fight have been hammered hard.

[Consigliere]

At the end of Robert's Rebellion was just as bad a time for Dorne to make a move on the IT. They had lost plenty of troops with Leweylen, and they now faced an almost united Kingdom. Were they going to ally with the Tyrells against the Baratheons? LOL

My post mentions nothing about Dorne making a move against the IT post Rebellion. What Doran could have done is demand some sort of justice for the deaths of Elia and her children. He was not going to get Tywin but he could have gotten Clegane and Lorch, yet he did nothing.

Doran pretended to be "appeased", but started hatching his plans. Demanding heads from knights whose actions had been approved by King Robert would have been a mistake. Instead, Dorne has been flying under the radar for 16-18 years, just waiting for a Dragon to hatch and give them "justice".

Yes and these "plans" have been all talk. At least Oberyn was able to exact some kind of revenge for the deaths of Elia and her children. Doran's wonderful plan to marry Arianne to Viserys was to make the pact and then allow this asset to wander the Free Cities like a beggar who then falls into the hands of Illyrio. "Waiting for a Dragon to hatch". If you mean this literally then that is not a very good plan. In fact it is not a plan at all.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

My post mentions nothing about Dorne making a move against the IT post Rebellion. What Doran could have done is demand some sort of justice for the deaths of Elia and her children. He was not going to get Tywin but he could have gotten Clegane and Lorch, yet he did nothing.

He wouldn't have gotten Clegane and Lorch, and he knew that. Why would Robert give Doran the heads of knights whose actions he approved of? He wasn't going to risk losing his chance and who he really wanted, which was TYWIN. He didn't want Clegane and Lorch! What if he had asked? Tywin or Robert sends him their heads. Now who is he going to get a confession out of to implicate Tywin? Clegane and Lorch are stooges, pawns. Doran wants the brass ring.

"Waiting for a Dragon to hatch". If you mean this literally then that is not a very good plan. In fact it is not a plan at all.

The person who is in a position to agree the most with you, Arianne, who did accuse her father of doing NOTHING, tends not to agree with your assessment. It was certainly a better plan then jumping into the bar brawl holding nothing but a dick and bubble gum.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My post mentions nothing about Dorne making a move against the IT post Rebellion. What Doran could have done is demand some sort of justice for the deaths of Elia and her children. He was not going to get Tywin but he could have gotten Clegane and Lorch, yet he did nothing.

Doran could have not asked for that because he was sent a very good indirect: Robert never ever once travelled to Dorne and sent Arryn instead to say "yeah, we're kinda sorry". Later, he married Tywin's daughter, which could have been seen as a reward for his actions. The message was very clear: the Crown and the Lannisters are in good terms.

Now, admitting Clegane and Lorch were behind the whole thing could meant to things: 1) Tywin can't control his own men, which is not something he would like people to believe or 2) He was behind the whole time. Officially, the Lannisters couldn't accept it.

[Consigliere]

He wouldn't have gotten Clegane and Lorch, and he knew that. Why would Robert give Doran the heads of knights whose actions he approved of? He wasn't going to risk losing his chance and who he really wanted, which was TYWIN. He didn't want Clegane and Lorch! What if he had asked? Tywin or Robert sends him their heads. Now who is he going to get a confession out of to implicate Tywin? Clegane and Lorch are stooges, pawns. Doran wants the brass ring.

The person who is in a position to agree the most with you, Arianne, who did accuse her father of doing NOTHING, tends not to agree with your assessment. It was certainly a better plan then jumping into the bar brawl holding nothing but a dick and bubble gum.

Doran could have not asked for that because he was sent a very good indirect: Robert never ever once travelled to Dorne and sent Arryn instead to say "yeah, we're kinda sorry". Later, he married Tywin's daughter, which could have been seen as a reward for his actions. The message was very clear: the Crown and the Lannisters are in good terms.

Now, admitting Clegane and Lorch were behind the whole thing could meant to things: 1) Tywin can't control his own men, which is not something he would like people to believe or 2) He was behind the whole time. Officially, the Lannisters couldn't accept it.

Awesome excuses. The Prince of Dorne was powerless to even demand justice for his sister and her children. Like I said before, somehow sitting on your arse and doing fuck all apparently makes one a master tactician.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Awesome excuses. The Prince of Dorne was powerless to even demand justice for his sister and her children. Like I said before, somehow sitting on your arse and doing fuck all apparently makes one a master tactician.

It would actually be a master strategist, since tactics deals with small scale action where improvisation is key, whereas strategy deals with large scale and political action and depends on forethought and planning. Whether you like it or not, one can't deny that Dorne is in the best position of all the 7 Kingdoms now, and it's due to Doran.

[Consigliere]

It would actually be a master strategist, since tactics deals with small scale action where improvisation is key, whereas strategy deals with large scale and political action and depends on forethought and planning.

Whatever. Thus far he has shown to be neither a master tactician nor strategist.

Whether you like it or not, one can't deny that Dorne is in the best position of all the 7 Kingdoms now, and it's due to Doran.

Whether you like it or not one cannot deny that the Vale is in the best position of all the 7 kingdoms and it's down to Lysa and LF.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Whether you like it or not one cannot deny that the Vale is in the best position of all the 7 kingdoms and it's down to Lysa and LF.

It seems to me that Lysa was Littlefinger's puppet, so I don't know why she would get any of the credit. So I guess Littlefinger should get most of the blame. Is he a rotten strategist too? Maybe there is another LF out there somewhere.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It would actually be a master strategist, since tactics deals with small scale action where improvisation is key, whereas strategy deals with large scale and political action and depends on forethought and planning. Whether you like it or not, one can't deny that Dorne is in the best position of all the 7 Kingdoms now, and it's due to Doran.

Try the Vale.

[Consigliere]

It seems to me that Lysa was Littlefinger's puppet, so I don't know why she would get any of the credit. So I guess Littlefinger should get most of the blame. Is he a rotten strategist too? Maybe there is another LF out there somewhere.

LOL. Doran is not even in the same league as LF. And Lysa certainly deserves credit. LF told her to keep the Vale out of it and she accomplished that.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

LOL. Doran is not even in the same league as LF. And Lysa certainly deserves credit. LF told her to keep the Vale out of it and she accomplished that.

Doran has achieved the same result as LF. Why is he not in the same league?

Lysa did as she was told. How does this make her a master strategist? She was a puppet. Do puppets get credit, or the puppeteer?

[Consigliere]

Doran has achieved the same result as LF. Why is he not in the same league?

Lysa did as she was told. How does this make her a master strategist? She was a puppet. Do puppets get credit, or the puppeteer?

Well LF instigated a war to further his own ends. That is a helluva lot more than anything Doran has done in over a decade and a half of "planning".

Nowhere did I state that Lysa was a "master strategist". The order came from LF but Lysa carried out that order successfully by herself so she does deserve credit.

And didn't you say that Doran was "just waiting for a Dragon to hatch and give them justice"? Does that make Doran the Dragons puppet?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Well LF instigated a war to further his own ends. That is a helluva lot more than anything Doran has done in over a decade and a half of "planning".

You realize that LF is a prick, right? And is going to die a horribly excruciating death, most likely from some sort of poison Sansa inserts into her lady bits that causes to LF to basically die screaming while his insides turn to jelly, due in part because he started a war to further his own ends and because nobody in the Vale really likes him anyways except the people he pays off who arn't going to stay loyal when the chips are down.

The order came from LF but Lysa carried out that order successfully by herself so she does deserve credit.

Yes. She gets the same amount of credit that Gomer Pyle gets when he successfully cleans out the latrines when Gunny Carter tells him to.

And didn't you say that Doran was "just waiting for a Dragon to hatch and give them justice"? Does that make Doran the Dragons puppet?

More like the dragon's mother hen.

[Consigliere]

You realize that LF is a prick, right? And is going to die a horribly excruciating death, most likely from some sort of poison Sansa inserts into her lady bits that causes to LF to basically die screaming while his insides turn to jelly, due in part because he started a war to further his own ends and because nobody in the Vale really likes him anyways except the people he pays off who arn't going to stay loyal when the chips are down.

I don't really care on speculating what may or may not happen in future books. Thus far, LF has shown himself to be a much better player of the game than Doran.

Yes. She gets the same amount of credit that Gomer Pyle gets when he successfully cleans out the latrines when Gunny Carter tells him to.

Actually she gets a similar amount of credit for keeping the Vale out of it as Doran gets for keeping Dorne out. Not as much but pretty close.

More like the dragon's mother hen.

More like the Dragons puppet.