Speculating about Septon Barth's notions

[Hrafntýr]

Yes that was the quote. Thanks a lot. While the outfits aren't always consistent with the books (not a big deal) I think there is a reason that they were designed that way. Leather suggests land dwellers, but seal skins and the such can too so maybe WW did something with the merlings after they left. I definitely think some sort of merfolk existed.

Good point about Leaf, but she didn't mention other species too, such as Merfolk and kraken iirc, and they surely exist. Dragons are hard to miss, so I do think Asshai breeding of wyrms and wyverns. The location of theses two species has Asshai in the middle.

I've never gave much thought to Proto-Valyrians tbh, because weren't they just farmers? But I think Battle Isle is simply from the pirate lord that occupied Oldtown (before the Hightowers? Why would they let a pirate live in their city) or from one of the three times Oldtown was sacked. Unless Dayne's and Hightowers are protos and way more ancient.

It could well be, though the pirate lord thing was supposed to be from the Age of Heroes, and Yandel suggests that Battle Island, and the base of the Hightower goes back to well before that time. Here are some relevant passages, that might be helpful for the sake of further discussion:

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.

If indeed this first fortress is Valyrian, it suggests that the dragonlords came to Westeros thousands of years before they carved out their outpost on Dragonstone, long before the coming of the Andals, or even the First Men. If so, did they come seeking trade? Were they slavers, mayhaps seeking after giants? Did they seek to learn the magic of the children of the forest, with their greenseers and their weirwoods? Or was there some darker purpose?

It's after that last paragraph that Yandel introduces and dismisses Barth's claim about the Valyrian prophecy regarding the Doom of Man coming from beyond the narrow sea, and then goes on to discuss Strange Stone. Finally, he says

The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know.

I find very interesting that there's so much discussion here of pre-First Men humans in Westeros, of contact between said humans and the elder races, as well as the similarity-but-not-sameness between the base of the Hightower and Valyrian stoneworking. And smack dab in the midst of it the mention of Barth's "nonsense" about the Valyrian prophecy.

There's also Perestan's speculation "that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter."

Although the authority on the erstwhile existence of dragons in Westeros seems to be Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural (a book with a clearly polemical title directed against Barth), it seems to offer only "certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to power." This cannot be taken as definitive proof that dragons are indigenous to Westeros, though, if we think that the Hightower base predates the days of Valyria and yet was made by someone possessing fireworking technology similar to the Valyrians; perhaps someone from Essos brought dragons to Westeros before the arrival of the First Men (who give us our earliest historical records, in runes), though it could be that dragons are indigenous to Westeros, and those early visitors to Oldtown from across the narrow sea learned the control of dragons from an elder race in Westeros.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

It could well be, though the pirate lord thing was supposed to be from the Age of Heroes, and Yandel suggests that Battle Island, and the base of the Hightower goes back to well before that time. Here are some relevant passages, that might be helpful for the sake of further discussion:

It's after that last paragraph that Yandel introduces and dismisses Barth's claim about the Valyrian prophecy regarding the Doom of Man coming from beyond the narrow sea, and then goes on to discuss Strange Stone. Finally, he says

I find very interesting that there's so much discussion here of pre-First Men humans in Westeros, of contact between said humans and the elder races, as well as the similarity-but-not-sameness between the base of the Hightower and Valyrian stoneworking. And smack dab in the midst of it the mention of Barth's "nonsense" about the Valyrian prophecy.

There's also Perestan's speculation "that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter."

Although the authority on the erstwhile existence of dragons in Westeros seems to be Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural (a book with a clearly polemical title directed against Barth), it seems to offer only "certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to power." This cannot be taken as definitive proof that dragons are indigenous to Westeros, though, if we think that the Hightower base predates the days of Valyria and yet was made by someone possessing fireworking technology similar to the Valyrians; perhaps someone from Essos brought dragons to Westeros before the arrival of the First Men (who give us our earliest historical records, in runes), though it could be that dragons are indigenous to Westeros, and those early visitors to Oldtown from across the narrow sea learned the control of dragons from an elder race in Westeros.

If dragons are indigenous, I wonder if it was through skinchanging that they were controlled? It does suggest the dragon lords sook out the Children, so that connection makes sense to me, but Dany doesn't seem to skinchange her dragon, so I think the "darker purpose" is the reason they were there. Personally I still think ice dragons are the originals, and the protos modeled fire dragons after them. Which could certainly be the "darker purpose". Very minor thing, but a constellation called the Ice Dragon (with a bright blue star as it eye) indicates North in Westeros, which suggests that the Westerosi knew of dragons existence (it would probably be a First Men constellation) before the Targs, and those dragons were specifically ice dragons.

Perestans "tragedy" which forced the "Valyrians" to shun Westeros is likely skinchangers trying to control their dragons I imagine.

I thank you for these passages, and due to the isles proximity to the sea, I think Deep Ones would be involved in the Battle Isle battle, it seems like an elder race hotspot in close proximity to the selkie covered Shield Islands.

But regarding this pirate, if the Hightowers existed during the Age f Heroes (which the children of Garth Greenhand seems to indicate and they were certainly alive during the Age) then why would they allow this pirate lord to reside in their city? Unless the Hightowers were the pirate lords (who lived on the ravenry island, not Battle Isle, so this is unlikely) then I think maybe the pirate is a before the First Men man. First Men weren't seafarers, but pirates... have ships. So this pirate lord (Proto Valyrian or before-the-first-men-man) was before the Hightowers. And if huge base of the Hightower predates the Hightowers then that also indicates Protos, unless the Hightowers are the protos (like Daynes maybe?).

I'm not a good writer lol....

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Of course this makes no sense, if indeed we are talking about a Valyrian house, then it committed suicide. Unless they were spared by the Doom.

Very few dragonlords made it out.

Implications: Did the Targaryens pay for the Doom of Valyria?

After all, they were a minor dragonrider house, therefore they didn´t have too much to lose. They sold everything. They had enemies in Valyria. And the Doom left them as the sole dragonlords in the entire world, a power they would later use to carve their own kingdom. They were clearly the winners of the Doom.

Yes, I found it odd that Aegon would side with the Storm King (who he would eventually concquer) against his fellow Valyrians in the years leading up to the conquest.

Now, after the Doom a Volantene fleet took Lys and a Volantene army took Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the Westerosi Storm King. Aegon Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone on Balerion the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in rebellion. The war left the Disputed Lands a waste and freed Lys and Myr from the yoke of Volantis.

As we see here, the Valyrians out of Volantis were again attempting to expand their dominion and had already taken Lys and Myr. The Volantene (Valyrian ruled) requested help from Aegon I knowing that the lands could be won with the assistance of a few dragons (just look at how easily Westeros was conquered). Instead Aegon I sided with Tyrosh and betrayed his fellow Valyrians.

Since that time, the tables were turned on the Valyrians in the free cities who have themselves become subject to poverty and slavery. In Feast for Crows, Cersei notes several times that Aurane Waters looks like Rhaegar. Eventually she notices some differences, but says there is a resemblance. She notes " He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true."

I believe that those Valyrians left, especially in the Free Cities have a special vendetta against the Targaryens.

[ShaggyCat]

Of course this makes no sense, if indeed we are talking about a Valyrian house, then it committed suicide. Unless they were spared by the Doom.

Very few dragonlords made it out.

Implications: Did the Targaryens pay for the Doom of Valyria?

After all, they were a minor dragonrider house, therefore they didn´t have too much to lose. They sold everything. They had enemies in Valyria. And the Doom left them as the sole dragonlords in the entire world, a power they would later use to carve their own kingdom. They were clearly the winners of the Doom.

Oh.

OH!

This is brilliant. So obvious yet I'd never put it together that way.

That makes so much more sense than any other Faceless Men hired to kill mages caused Doom theory. Well done!

[Ser Lepus]

Yes, I found it odd that Aegon would side with the Storm King (who he would eventually concquer) against his fellow Valyrians in the years leading up to the conquest.

Now, after the Doom a Volantene fleet took Lys and a Volantene army took Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the Westerosi Storm King. Aegon Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone on Balerion the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in rebellion. The war left the Disputed Lands a waste and freed Lys and Myr from the yoke of Volantis.

As we see here, the Valyrians out of Volantis were again attempting to expand their dominion and had already taken Lys and Myr. The Volantene (Valyrian ruled) requested help from Aegon I knowing that the lands could be won with the assistance of a few dragons (just look at how easily Westeros was conquered). Instead Aegon I sided with Tyrosh and betrayed his fellow Valyrians.

Since that time, the tables were turned on the Valyrians in the free cities who have themselves become subject to poverty and slavery. In Feast for Crows, Cersei notes several times that Aurane Waters looks like Rhaegar. Eventually she notices some differences, but says there is a resemblance. She notes " He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true."

I believe that those Valyrians left, especially in the Free Cities have a special vendetta against the Targaryens.

The Lysene are all mostly Valyrian, and their ruling families are still almost pure Valyrian. Yandel says that "the Lysene value bloodline above anything", or something like that.

The Volantene are more mixed, but still today only those of Valyrian ancestry can be chosen as Triarchs.

The reason there are so many Valyrian-looking sex slaves in Lys is that: 1.-Most of the natives still keep Valyrian or almost Valyrian looks, and 2.-They consider the stereotypical Valyrian look to be the summum of beauty, so they breed slaves with valyrian looks to sell them as sex slaves.

[Jason Stark Wolfmen]

Brilliant tread

[Free Northman Reborn]

The problem with the theory that the Valyrians created their dragons artificially is that there is no way to prove now that the dragon fossils in Westeros are not merely wyvern remains, rather than fire-breeding dragons...

If the Valyrians did indeed create their dragons, those may very well have been the first dragons, despite the claims of the Asshai'i and others.

The idea that the Long Night killed off all the naturally occurring dragons is too much a stretch, in my opinion, as it is sort of confirmed that the southern reaches of the world were somewhat less affected by the Long Night than the northern reaches (that's confirmed by the fact that the Rhoyne was only frozen up to the mouth of Selhoru, not down until its own mouth).

How could the 'natural dragons' in the Lands of the Long Summer, Asshai, Sothoryos (if dragons lived there), or in Dorne/the Reach be killed by the cold?

I'd also not take Yandel's claim at face value that Barth used 'esoteric metaphors'. We don't even know whether Yandel even read Barth's surviving fragments firsthand, or whether his knowledge of him comes from other works discussing Barth's theories - but even if Yandel is familiar with Barth, he is biased against him when Barth discusses magic (his praise for Barth seems to come from the fact that Barth did not only write on magic, but on various topics, and he excelled in pretty much everything he did), and this could very well be the reason why he dismisses his writings as 'esoteric metaphors', especially if we keep in mind that Yandel most certainly is not expert in the traditions of the higher mysteries.

Except that Martin himself confirmed that Westerosi dragon legends from the Age of Heroes are based on the fact that dragons lived all over the world back then. Not wyverns. Dragons.