Can't Stand Sansa?

[oxmix]

My interest in her is this: who's the younger and more beautiful queen that's supposed to replace Cersei? Everything points to Dany. Or perhaps even Margaery. Yet Sansa, if LF's machinations come to fruition, could conceivably still be a wild card.

As much as I would like to see Sansa dead, she is probably the the more beautiful queen in the prophecy. It won't take LF's machinations. Remember, she is Mrs. Tyrion Lannister. Her husband is Cersei's brother, and the prophecy is also that Cersei will be killed by a brother.

[DJ Dawn]

I don't like Sansa, however I think she actually has one of the more believable perspectives of the book. She acts like a 13 year old girl that's been promised to be married to a beautiful young prince only to have her father try and whisk her away. She realizes Joffery's issues when Ned dies, and slowly learns from then on, more believable than say Dany who went from being a frightened 14 year old girl who is forced into a marriage to some powerful commanding queen type on a few chapters notice, but hell, who's counting? Sansa is aight, Arya is more fun to read to me. Arya, Tyrion, and the less common chapters(Iron Islands, Jaime, Ned) are my favs. Just a personal thing

[Arbor Gold]

HA! GRRM is a master manipulator! He has all of you right where he wants you.

How many characters in this series are totally black and white? Gregor? Crastor? Boo, they suck!! I think we can all agree. (And if anybody can launch a defense of Craster, I would LOVE to see that thread!)

Who didn't hate Sansa in AGoT? GRRM positioned her to be Arya's foil...and of course we fell for it and hated her. GRRM wrote her so very BLACK in AGoT, and first impressions are tough to override. Knowing how other characters progress (Jamie, I'm looking at YOU) one absolutely must question a character that was so obviously positioned early on in the series to be "bad" or "irritating".

The point is that he created a character with tremendous room for development, and I am curious to see how she turns out.

Sansa is easily manipulated by those she admires. Of course, her judgement is questionable, and absolutelely her biggest weakness thus far. She is incredibly naive, and, as DJDawn says,

She acts like a 13 year old girl that's been promised to be married to a beautiful young prince

However, she is growing up.

I don't think Sansa will ever learn to think for herself. She will continue to be manipulated by those she admires. Now, the stakes are higher and she is getting older. Considering her tutors (Cercei, Littlefinger), I can't wait to see how she turns out.

Bravo to GRRM for creating a character that will develop over time!

[Lord Qwerty]

I'm loaning a friend my copy of AGOT and he's already said that he figures Sansa will die. He doesn't like her either. Howerever, I personally don't dislike her. We NEED a a naive character like that. It gives us someone who sees the world for how it APPEARS, not for it IS. A lot handier than you might think.

[Blackfish]

Worst character by far in the books. Not just terrible for a Stark, but more like for a mentally retarded Frey. She would have got on glorious with Aegon, AKA jinglebell, but she would have been intellectually outwitted on a day to day basis. Their children would have been more equipped upstairs than Sansa. I have no sympathy for "poor little 13 year old girl" shit. Poor little 8 year old Arya has a clue whats going on.

[oxmix]

Not just terrible for a Stark, but more like for a mentally retarded Frey.

That's it exactly!

[Blackfish]

This thread was so far down the list on page 8 or 9, I just like having it back up on the 1st page. And hate Sansa that much.

[ltm]

Sansa and Arya. Arya acts pretty much as a girl in a fantasy series is supposed to (Buffy the Vampire Slayer etc etc) and her story is one of the underdog. It's interesting but I've read fifty-sixty versions of it before. Live or die, there's little unexpected here.

Sansa in GoT acts like all those empty headed little mall girls we see every freaking day. The only time they ever show up in fiction is to be

"the persons we hate" we never really hear who they are or where they come from and they never change much.

That's why I prefer Sansa story at this point. As Martin writes it, only those who just want a character to hate can't see the changes.

That's fine, do whatever but the character in AFFC is not the same girl we met in GOT.

And I actually question that she's this idea she just "goes along" as much as she used to.

When Littlefinger mentions Harry the Heir what did Sansa say?

Think it something about him having already fathered at least one bastard based on info she had gotten on trip down from the Eyrie.

The Sansa in GOT would likely not have even caught that, wouldn't even ask, the Sansa in AFFC immediately remembered and did have a comment about this guy's perhaps less than attractive behavior.

It's a small thing, probably most readers wouldn't think it big but the abillity to even ask a question is huge in someone who never did before.

Even if the questions aren't asked out loud, the fact it's even there is quite the development for this character who questioned nothing at the beginning of the series and who's only function was to be "the mean emptyed head sister"

Arya on the hand has developed into a fighter but that's all she is at this point. Her character was a rebellious angry girl in GOT and she's not changed from that spot one jot. She just got better with her sword and much much angier.

It makes for great action but I get bored reading her stuff after a while. I've far too many versions of the same sort of character before

and it's not like there aren't tons of other action in the books.

Sansa's story is more about internal change while trying to keeping the appearance of compliance front and centre.

And I suspect we're going to see that grow as the series progresses.

[Artanaro]

I am shocked (well not really, I think most everyone in this thread is awfully typical) of how little empathy some posters have. Just because Sansa likes things you can't relate to in your guyish and nerdy existence doesn't mean she's naive, it just means she a young girl. Arya and Sansa have their own bubbles, even if they're different. People should look at what's good and virtuous inside others, rather than harp on every little fault in a character. Arya has just as many bad shortcomings as Sansa, but why aren't there Arya Hate Threads? It's a double standard. Anyways, that's my peace.

Artanaro

[Ser Gendry of Hollow Hill]

Well there are people who don't think much of Arya also. I see arguments that she is a psysco etc etc. She shouldn't have killed this fellow or that fellow. But I guess the number of those people hasn't reached a critical mass to generate a thread like this.

About Sansa I am not sure that she will live thru the story. In AGOT she was on the walls with Joff looking at her fathers head and considers pushing Joff and dieing in the process. May be in the end she will kill one of the big villains of the series and in the process die.

[Dunhallym]

I think Paladin of Ice has greatly summarized what I think.

In fact, I also hated Sansa the first time I read AGOT. My opinion shifted a bit during the reading of the following books, as the character evolved. And then I decided to re-read completely the series, and my opinion of Sansa, even in AGOT, has really changed, as I have tried to read the book with more attention, and seen things differently from the first reading. Sansa has her own kind of courage, although it is less obvious perhaps than with the other characters, but I think it takes a lot to bear what she has to at her age.

As for the "Sansa is not a Stark" thing : since when is a child the copy of his/her parents, brothers or sisters ? Hopefully, it is not the case, in AGOT or in real life ! If all the Stark children were a copy of Ned, the book would certainly turn boring...

[Blackfish]

All the Stark children had Stark/Tully traits, except Sansa. She has always thought so much of herself and what she thinks she deserves, when the other Starks think of duty and responsibility. She is the only Stark that constantly refers to Jon as a bastard and looks down on him for it(and we all no that he is the characters the books are about) I think that people try to give Sansa alot more credit than that stuck up little $#*&#!@ deserves.

[Dunhallym]

I don't think all the other Starks think all the time of duty and responsibility. Robb and Jon do : Robb as the heir to Winterfell, and Jon because, as he is not an "official" Stark, he wants to prove himself even more than the other Stark children. Bran shows also a sense of duty and responsibility when he is "the Stark in Winterfell" and therefore acting as a lord. As for Arya, although I enjoy the character, I don't see really her more focused on duty and responsibility than Sansa is. They both begin to show it really after Eddard's death, though in a different way.

Concerning her attitude towards Jon, I think it is mainly related to her relationship with Catelyn. We see in the following books that she really likes her brother, and that her attitude towards him in the beginning was mainly the product of her mother's distaste for Jon.

To conclude : there are many things I don't like in Sansa in the beginning, but many people in this thread seem to forget thaht she is 11 in the first book, and that she has been educated to be what she is : a little princess that believes in fairy tales and see in Joffrey her Prince Charming. Only life is not a fairy tale, which she learns quite harshly, and which makes her change for the good.

[Ahimsa]

People keep saying "game of thrones" era Sansa was bad, but she hasn't improved at all. Okay she learned to hate Joff and Cersei but she's still a whiny, pretentious, shallow, self-centered little brat. She truly is her mother's daughter.

[A wilding]

[sansa] She has always thought so much of herself and what she thinks she deserves, when the other Starks think of duty and responsibility.

Sansa was brought up to be an obedient wife who is always properly courteous, and the only instance I can think of her failing in this duty is when she flees Tyrion and KL in ASoS.

I can't think of a single instance post AGoT of her ever thinking about "deserving" anything.

[sansa is] still a whiny, pretentious, shallow, self-centered little brat. She truly is her mother's daughter.

Can you provide any post AGoT evidence of her being any of "whiny", "pretentious", "shallow" or "self-centered"? Or any trait at all that she shares with her mother?

[Blackfish]

Even in aSoS, when LF tells her she has to be acting as his baseborn daghter, she has the intelect to say "How about I am the daghter of some faithful knight that died valiantly?" Come on.

[Alannys]

I really don't understand this talk that says that "Sansa is no Stark". As I see it, she is much more like her father than her mother (at least if you don't count her looks). She is naive, trusting and idealistic, much like Ned. You don't see Cat walking around dreaming of handsome princes, songs and lemoncakes.

And I don't really think there is any proof that she was mean to Jon. All we know is that she referred to him as "my half brother". Not very nice perhaps, but it is not really strange considering the way bastards were usually regarded in Westeros. She could have called him worse things.

[DJ Dawn]

I think that calling Jon her half-brother is an example of the fact that Sansa is wrapped up in what others think of her and her family. That is why she is closer to Cat, as well. Not the idealism, but the selfishness that resides in appearences. Ned was Ned, like him or not, he never acted differently than he felt for the sake of appearence. Sansa and Cat, however, both care deeply about what the Kingdom thinks of them and this results in negative actions for them and their family.

[My Lady Ashalind]

Why wouldn't Sansa always being dreaming of valiant knights, handsome princes, songs and lemon cakes? She was a NOBLE 's daughter. She was catered to and pampered all her short little life. As expected. She was taught all the how to's and what's expected of being the noble lady of house. She was only 12. The realm was at peace. There was no need to prepare her otherwise.

Yes , her naivety was frustrating while reading cause you just wanted her to wake up and see the real world. And eventually she does begin to understand and realize whats going on. She uses her "courstesy" as her armour and her way of coping with things that are beyond her control.

[DJ Dawn]

Why wouldn't Sansa always being dreaming of valiant knights, handsome princes, songs and lemon cakes? She was a NOBLE 's daughter. She was catered to and pampered all her short little life. As expected. She was taught all the how to's and what's expected of being the noble lady of house. She was only 12. The realm was at peace. There was no need to prepare her otherwise.

Yes , her naivety was frustrating while reading cause you just wanted her to wake up and see the real world. And eventually she does begin to understand and realize whats going on. She uses her "courstesy" as her armour and her way of coping with things that are beyond her control.

This sounds an awful lot like what I wrote about a month ago, further up this page. Sansa is a realistic 12 year old girl. This annoys the hell out of people because 12 year old girls are annoying as hell. Her chapters are fantastically written and feel far more real than say Arya(who I like more as a character) or Bran(who I'm indifferent about). However, she also wa corrupted by her mother's disdain of Jon Snow, and Catelyn's desire to be a powerful woman at court. She simply has her mothers desires, and now, finally, she is finally letting them go as she sees that there are more important things than dresses, songs, and lemon cakes.