Can't Stand Sansa?

[Slinx]

Tywin: "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle."

No one's ever said the guy's not good at his job.

All we need now is a sob story, and this guy will be the next Jamie.

[oba]

All we need now is a sob story, and this guy will be the next Jamie.

I tried that once already.

[Ser Greguh]

First off, Sansa did absolutely nothing to get Mycah killed. Robert and Ned both had several "search parties" out in the countryside looking for Arya, with Mycah being secondary. Ned's men found Arya, and quickly dragged them with Joffrey in front of the king. Sansa lied there and paid the price for it; Lady was killed. After that, The Hound came back, carrying Mycah's bloody corpse. He was already out in the field. He had no way of knowing what had transpired. In what parallel universe does this in any way trace back to being Sansa's fault? It boggles the mind. Some people here obviously fail in their reading comprehension. Why not blame her for the doom of Valyria while you're at it?

As for what happened in KL, she made a stupid mistake out of naivite, which may or may not have affected the outcome of events. Honestly, I think the only consequence of her running to Cersei was that she wound up trapped in KL. Again, she was the one that paid for her actions: what, going on a year of being imprisoned, kept bereft of any meaningful human contact, being ordered beaten by the boy-king she thought she was in love with, and having no real hope of escape? I'd say that she's suffered as much as any POV character in the series.

No matter what, to call her action a "betrayal" is nonsense. Betrayal implies malice, a conscious desire to harm her family in this case. There was no such intent. Had she known the consequences of her actions, no doubt that would have changed them.

The kicker is, I don't even particularly like Sansa. I usually give a small groan whenever I see one of her chapters coming up, although that's subsided to a certain degree in aFfC. She certainly shows more potential to change than any other POV character with the possible exception of Jaime (and I would argue that Jaime has not so much changed as his circumstances have around him).

But man. Some people have issues. I think I'm getting to like this theory of a lot of geeks getting turned down by pretty redheads for the Prom.

[oba]

Traditional villains are generally easier to make interesting than heroes, because their lack of a moral code means a writer can have them do whatever the hell they want without having to draw the audience's empathy. They also get an air of mystery (because we rarely see things from their POV); and their actions tend to drive the plot, so they're always 'active' which a lot of people like. It's just an incidental of storytelling.

I absolutely agree. But, Gregor's comparative lack of characterization as compared to other "villains" is why I find it somewhat amusing that someone would genuinely find him more, well, interesting than one of the protagonists.

GRRM hasn't, IMO, cultivated an aura of mystery nor has he given him any sort of backstory which might explain why he is the way he is.

We get this with Sandor, Tywin, Littlefinger, Cersei, etc. and it at least gives us some explanation as to why they are the way they are.

Everything we hear about and see of Gregor is just awful. He's strictly one-dimensional. He's even needlessly cruel when he's not acting on someone else's orders.

A lot of people would say Arnie's character is the most interesting thing about The Terminator, but without Sarah Conner there'd be no movie, right?

Without Sarah Connor, you get Friday the 13th III through X, only Jason has an Austrian accent and carries a gun instead of a machete.

[Slinx]

First off, Sansa did absolutely nothing to get Mycah killed. Robert and Ned both had several "search parties" out in the countryside looking for Arya, with Mycah being secondary. Ned's men found Arya, and quickly dragged them with Joffrey in front of the king. Sansa lied there and paid the price for it; Lady was killed. After that, The Hound came back, carrying Mycah's bloody corpse. He was already out in the field. He had no way of knowing what had transpired. In what parallel universe does this in any way trace back to being Sansa's fault? It boggles the mind. Some people here obviously fail in their reading comprehension. Why not blame her for the doom of Valyria while you're at it?

Sandor led one of the search parties and he killed Mycah 'for attacking the Prince'. As we know that didn't happen and that Joffrey lied, Sansa covered it all up by refusing to tell the truth after the event happened.

As for what happened in KL, she made a stupid mistake out of naivite, which may or may not have affected the outcome of events. Honestly, I think the only consequence of her running to Cersei was that she wound up trapped in KL. Again, she was the one that paid for her actions: what, going on a year of being imprisoned, kept bereft of any meaningful human contact, being ordered beaten by the boy-king she thought she was in love with, and having no real hope of escape? I'd say that she's suffered as much as any POV character in the series.

The series could be a whole lot different actually. The ship would've carried her, Arya, and the Winterfell escort back home safely. Fat Tom would've delivered the note to Stannis and that would've changed things.

Ned's whole plan after using the City Watch to secure the Lannisters was to bring Stannis back to King's Landing to have him crowned.

No matter what, to call her action a "betrayal" is nonsense. Betrayal implies malice, a conscious desire to harm her family in this case. There was no such intent. Had she known the consequences of her actions, no doubt that would have changed them.

From Dictionary.com

1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.

2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

4. to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.

5. to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.

6. to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

7. to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.

8. to seduce and desert.

I'm sure you could make a case about the whole betrayal thing.

The kicker is, I don't even particularly like Sansa. I usually give a small groan whenever I see one of her chapters coming up, although that's subsided to a certain degree in aFfC. She certainly shows more potential to change than any other POV character with the possible exception of Jaime (and I would argue that Jaime has not so much changed as his circumstances have around him).

She is pretty damn boring. I doubt she would've changed as much without her circumstances changing like, similiar to whiny Jamie's.

I tried that once already.

How'd that go? If rumors are correct, the man is headless which should gather at least 100x as much sympathy.

[oba]

If rumors are correct, the man is headless which should gather at least 100x as much sympathy.

Well, being headless hasn't garnered Ned much sympathy on these boards.

On the plus side, headless means fewer lines which means less opportunity for Gregor to say something that makes him less sympathetic (see: Fight with Oberyn Martell; Discourse on how to train outriders; Witty repartee regarding innkeep's daughter).

On the down side, he can't win anyone over with quips and it further emphasizes his lack of "pretty boy" appeal.

I think it's a push.

[Red Sun]

Everything we hear about and see of Gregor is just awful. He's strictly one-dimensional. He's even needlessly cruel when he's not acting on someone else's orders.

Good points, Oba. I always thought that Gregor simply lacked a human angle. All the other interesting villains, small and big, have weaknesses and strengths and quirks, things that make them human. Bolton has his leeches and ambition, Littlefinger has ambition x 3, Tywin is a control freak who loved his wife, his pride is also his downfall, Sandor is driven by his hatred of knights, etc. Gregor is just not human, even when he is alive. He is not a broken man, like the majority of the Mummers, he has not real motivation except for being brutal. I don't know if losing his head will have the same coolness factor for him as it worked with Jaime losing his hand.

edit: some clarifications

[mormont]

Sandor led one of the search parties and he killed Mycah 'for attacking the Prince'. As we know that didn't happen and that Joffrey lied, Sansa covered it all up by refusing to tell the truth after the event happened.

However, you can't make Sansa carry the can for that, unless you think Sandor is psychic. He was sent out before the incident in question. At that point, the only person who'd even asked for Sansa's version of events was Ned - and she told him the truth.

Therefore, Sandor must have killed Sansa independently of anything Sansa said or did not say.

[Slinx]

However, you can't make Sansa carry the can for that, unless you think Sandor is psychic. He was sent out before the incident in question. At that point, the only person who'd even asked for Sansa's version of events was Ned - and she told him the truth.

Therefore, Sandor must have killed Sansa independently of anything Sansa said or did not say.

Straight from the book, it took 4 days for them to track down Arya. In that meantime Sansa could've told the truth.

I'm not blaming his actual death on her, but I'm blaming the reason he was killed for on her.

[Jon Targaryen]

Jon, I did say that what she did was still wrong, and I guess I should also add dishonest. Still, I would class those remarks as 'dissembling' rather than an outright lie.

An outright lie would have been backing Joff's story, which Sansa does not do, when she might have. I strongly doubt Joff was pleased with her failure to do so, and I imagine that failure to do so might also have played a part in Cersei's spiteful revenge on Lady.

In any case, the point is that she was placed in a situation by Robert and Ned where she had to either lie or publicly call the Crown Prince a liar in front of the court and the King. She should never have been in that situation.

You might object that Arya and Ned manage to cope with it. However, Arya is insulated by her youth and naivete: she doesn't realise the significance of her behaviour in that situation. Ned is protected by the fact that he is a grown man with a reputation for honour and the close friendship of the King. Sansa is just old enough to realise the significance of the situation, but not old enough to be able to cope with it.

Mormont,

Yes, I think it can be called dissembling. And I agree that Sansa was placed in a hard situation where she fell short of what I, at least, expected of her. I am beginning to think some of the Sansa dislike or hate may come from GRRM's usual turning literary conventions on their heads. I would normally expect, as a reader, for Sansa to turn on Joffrey and support her father and sister after she witnessed Joffrey's mocking/abuse of Mycah, his reaction to Arya's intervention and his words to Sansa herself at the end of Sansa's chapter. Instead, she dissembles. She doesn't come down on the side of the "good guys" but stays in the middle. I think some frustration may come from the thwarting of what I would expect from this type of character.

And all but a few of the Sansa chapters are fairly passive. I don't recall many stories being written from the POV of a damsel in distress though there could be a few.

[Slinx]

Well, being headless hasn't garnered Ned much sympathy on these boards.

On the plus side, headless means fewer lines which means less opportunity for Gregor to say something that makes him less sympathetic (see: Fight with Oberyn Martell; Discourse on how to train outriders; Witty repartee regarding innkeep's daughter).

On the down side, he can't win anyone over with quips and it further emphasizes his lack of "pretty boy" appeal.

I think it's a push.

Yeah, damn them all.

Gregor was at least true to his feelings. He didn't act one way and then cry when alone like Jamie and Sandor.

She doesn't come down on the side of the "good guys" but stays in the middle. I think some frustration may come from the thwarting of what I would expect from this type of character.

She abetted evil in the case of Lady, Mycah, Arya and Joffrey. Which as you say doesn't scream 'damsel in distress', nor do any of her other parts. Except for the beatings, she seemd to be treated rather well for a prisoner of war.

[Tears of Lys]

She was absolutely playing the spoiled, stupid little girl in GoT, and I couldn't stand her. She's more than paid for her misdeeds, though. There's no reason to carry a grudge against her.

[mormont]

Straight from the book, it took 4 days for them to track down Arya. In that meantime Sansa could've told the truth.

It did, yes. But the evidence suggests that there was no contact with the search parties in that time.

Consider: if Sansa had the opportunity to communicate to the Hound (which is conceivable if unlikely), surely Ned did too? That he didn't indicates either that there was no opportunity or that he knew his words would be ignored.

Except for the beatings, she seemd to be treated rather well for a prisoner of war.

That's a pretty big 'except'. And you forgot the threats of rape and the forced marriage. And being, well, a prisoner.

[Slinx]

That's a pretty big 'except'. And you forgot the threats of rape and the forced marriage. And being, well, a prisoner.

Heh, I'll go the political escape route then.

Except for the forced marriage, all the other acts were unofficial statements not actually made by her captors, but by people in the employ/'distant' family that should not be blamed on the officials in charge; as they were not notified of these acts and can not be blamed for them.

The Kingsguard are actually independent contractors and all that bs...

Anyway, these acts don't seem too regular, and I'm sure we can get someone to stay that Sansa earned the beatings by being 'cheeky' with a person known for their anger.

All in all, her stay was probably more comfortable than all the male prisoners of war.

[A wilding]

Anyway, these acts don't seem too regular, and I'm sure we can get someone to stay that Sansa earned the beatings by being 'cheeky' with a person known for their anger.

They were regular enough for Sansa to be constantly expecting a beating every time she was in Joffrey's presence. And since she is constantly being blamed for being "passive", it is difficult to take seriously the argument that she deserved beating for, say, saving Ser Dontos from execution. Incidentally, both Sandor and Tyrion tell her that she has "learned her lessons well", i.e. that she was good at avoiding being cheeky, but that didn't stop Joffrey having her beaten up whenever the whim took him.

All in all, her stay was probably more comfortable than all the male prisoners of war.

I don't recall anyone beating up the Redwyne twins. They appear to have had enough freedom of movement to bribe ship captains even.

[Slinx]

They were regular enough for Sansa to be constantly expecting a beating every time she was in Joffrey's presence. And since she is constantly being blamed for being "passive", it is difficult to take seriously the argument that she deserved beating for, say, saving Ser Dontos from execution. Incidentally, both Sandor and Tyrion tell her that she has "learned her lessons well", i.e. that she was good at avoiding being cheeky, but that didn't stop Joffrey having her beaten up whenever the whim took him.

Being hit once or twice can make you wary for the rest of your life, however I am not excusing Joffrey's actions.

I don't recall anyone beating up the Redwyne twins. They appear to have had enough freedom of movement to bribe ship captains even.

I guess they are a prisoner in the sense of Theon's being imprisoned. They have freedom, but essentially a threat overhanging them at all times so they can't really escape.

However, I will say that Sansa's beatings were not administered by her actual captors or with their blessings, but by some petty pretty boy with ego problems.

[Antacid]

This is OT, but nm...

GRRM hasn't, IMO, cultivated an aura of mystery nor has he given him any sort of backstory which might explain why he is the way he is.

We get this with Sandor, Tywin, Littlefinger, Cersei, etc. and it at least gives us some explanation as to why they are the way they are.

Everything we hear about and see of Gregor is just awful. He's strictly one-dimensional. He's even needlessly cruel when he's not acting on someone else's orders.

Actually that's exactly what I mean. Gregor is much closer to the typical Hollywood villain (as you say, like Jason Vorhees; or the Black Hats in a Western, or the Emperor in ROTJ). He is actually given more of a sense of mystery because the reasons for his behavior are never explained.

But, Red Sun, I wouldn't personally agree that Roose and Ramsay Bolton or, say, Euron are any more human than good old Gregor. They have different physical characteristics and Modus Operandi, but what they all have in common is that although we generally understand enough about them that their actions don't seem totally random, we are never, ever given any reason to want them to succeed; and we generally see as little of them as possible. Otherwise, we'd realise that underneath, they're really all just brilliantly written, entirely one-dimensional, vaudeville mustache twirlers.

And yet many people still prefer them to Sansa.

[oba]

This is OT, but nm...

Actually that's exactly what I mean. Gregor is much closer to the typical Hollywood villain (as you say, like Jason Vorhees; or the Black Hats in a Western, or the Emperor in ROTJ). He is actually given more of a sense of mystery because the reasons for his behavior are never explained.

I see where you're going with that one, but I'd only agree with the Black Hats in a Western analogy and only to the extent that Gregor's like a brutal subordinate to the main bad guy who's taken over the town before Marshall Matt Dillon comes in.

I just don't see him as particularly mysterious.

We get enough of Gregor's backstory to clearly imply that he's been a psycho since age 12 and hasn't changed much since. His brutality is rewarded by Tywin so he's never given any motivation to change his behavior.

[Xray the Enforcer]

*drive by Sansa love*

[jscottnelson]

We get enough of Gregor's backstory to clearly imply that he's been a psycho since age 12 and hasn't changed much since. His brutality is rewarded by Tywin so he's never given any motivation to change his behavior.

I'd agree with this and think it is excellently-stated -- I have never thought of Gregor as "mysterious" because I always thought his "explanation" was pretty simple -- and Oba has explained why better than I could restate.

While other characters had more "backstory" to explain them, I think he is the excellent example of a person who wasn't molded by specific events -- he just WAS what he is -- and was lucky enough to find someone who wanted his particular "skills". In the wrong time and place, these kinds of folks are put away in prison or killed. In the right time and place, Kings make these "Gregors" torturers, dictators find them to do the dirty work of repression, and gangs use them as thugs to scare away the competition. I've always felt I knew and understood Gregor very well without more.

Oh yeah -- this thread is about Sansa. Uh, not my favorite character.