Was Renly's Murder Justified?

[James Arryn]

More a case of one burglar killing another before he could break into the house. As it happens the burglar who commited the murder actually owns the house. I am sure you'll ignore this though.

Stannis does NOT own Storm's End, and there is exactly zero evidence which suggests Renly intended to conquer Dragnstone.

I'm sure people will keep repeating this counter-factual claim, though.

[Bronn Urgandy]

More a case of one burglar killing another before he could break into the house. As it happens the burglar who commited the murder actually owns the house. I am sure you'll ignore this though. Silly rationale indeed. A call to arms, a crown on your head and marching on the capital is an offensive act against anybody and everbody who doesn't agree with the idea of you ruling.

Stannis does NOT own Storm's End, and there is exactly zero evidence which suggests Renly intended to conquer Dragnstone.

I'm sure people will keep repeating this counter-factual claim, though.

Clarity. We are talking about Kings Landing here. Either side arguing self defense is flat out wrong, but your analogy is apalling in the circumstances.

[James Arryn]

Clarity. We are talking about Kings Landing here. Either side arguing self defense is flat out wrong, but your analogy is apalling in the circumstances.

i suggest you read back to what the conversation was (shadowbaby/storm's end/renly attacking Stannis)'But even in your context, Renly never attacked or intended to attack Stannis, so self-defense is an invalid argument for Shadowbaby.

Edit: and as far as offended against everyone who doesn't want you to rule, you're raising this in a Stannis vs. Renly discussion? Really?

[MyLittleFinger]

I propose single combat between Lord Arryn and Ser Urgundy of the Brackwater.

I will try to conceive the shadow baby with as many women as I can and flip a coin to decide who goes.

I'm looking for volunteers.

[Gibzit]

No, it wasn't justified, Stannis ended any chance the Bartheons had of actually winning the war.

[Bronn Urgandy]

i suggest you read back to what the conversation was (shadowbaby/storm's end/renly attacking Stannis)'But even in your context, Renly never attacked or intended to attack Stannis, so self-defense is an invalid argument for Shadowbaby.

Happily I never argued self defense and I wouldn't either.

I think singling out Storms End as an isolated incident is the wrong way to go about it, Renly crowns himself and marches on Kings Landing, intended or not, that is the first move against directly Stannis as much as it was against Joffrey and as much as it was against Tommen, 1st, 2nd and 3rd in line depending on who you ask. Stannis attacking Storms End was actually the second move, Renly rushing to its aid the third. It all comes down to Kings Landing, since that is a direct attack on Stannis' claim (and considered so by many) then Renly is the one who struck first and is intending on commiting theft, just against more people than he considered. Rather naive of Renly if anything.

Like I say, it was a fight, self defense arguments and analogies about burglary should be avoided.

[Anythingatall]

I wouldn't use the term "justified". Understandable, yes. Justified, no.

[James Arryn]

Happily I never argued self defense and I wouldn't either.

I think singling out Storms End as an isolated incident is the wrong way to go about it, Renly crowns himself and marches on Kings Landing, intended or not, that is the first move against directly Stannis as much as it was against Joffrey and as much as it was against Tommen, 1st, 2nd and 3rd in line depending on who you ask. Stannis attacking Storms End was actually the second move, Renly rushing to its aid the third. It all comes down to Kings Landing, since that is a direct attack on Stannis' claim (and considered so by many) then Renly is the one who struck first and is intending on commiting theft, just against more people than he considered. Rather naive of Renly if anything.

Like I say, it was a fight, self defense arguments and analogies about burglary should be avoided.

1) marching on KL is an attack on ?Joff. It's not an attack on Stannis as he isn't King. If rebelling against and attacking a king also means attacking everyone else in between on the line of succession, what was Ned's argument vis a vis Rhaegar's kids being killed? Shouldn't that have been understood?

2) rather than rather naive, I'd suggest reading back to the reactions of the Lannisters et al when Stannis attacks Renly. Not only is it not the obvious response to his marching on KL, but it is greeted with joy and hilarity because it STARTS A WAR BETWEEN BARATHEON BROTHERS. Notice that was not regarded as true by anyone in Westeros when renly raised his banners. Except Stannis.

[Bronn Urgandy]

1) marching on KL is an attack in Joff. It's not an attack on Stannis as he isn't King.

2) rather than rather naive, I'd suggest reading back to the reactions of the Lannisters et al when Stannis attacks Renly. Not only is it not the obvious response to his marching on KL, but it is greeted with joy and hilarity because it STARTS A WAR BETWEEN BARATHEON BROTHERS. Notice that was not regarded as true by anyone in Westeros when renly raised his banners. Except Stannis.

1. Stannis is a King before Renly, whether Joffrey and Tommen are bastards or not. Something a lot of people in Westeros take into account. An item doesn't go from number 1 to number 4 without bypassing 2 and 3 no matter how much people want to close their eyes and pretend it does.

2. Self absorbed people are self absorbed, Stannis moved against the biggest threat to his reign. After Renly puts his crown on everyone is wondering just what Stannis will make of it, from Tywin to the Starks to Lady Catelyn asking Renly himself, so no, its not as if everyone expects him to be okay with it and I am not entirely sure where that came from. Besides, that hilarity and joy soon dissapates when Renly dies almost instantly and Stannis suddenly has an army, when they were expecting and hoping for a polonged engagement. Then its back to pants filling terror.

[Gibzit]

1. Stannis is a King before Renly, whether Joffrey and Tommen are bastards or not. Something a lot of people in Westeros take into account. An item doesn't go from number 1 to number 4 without bypassing 2 and 3 no matter how much people want to close their eyes and pretend it does.

2. Self absorbed people are self absorbed, Stannis moved against the biggest threat to his reign. After Renly puts his crown on everyone is wondering just what Stannis will make of it, from Tywin to the Starks to Lady Catelyn asking Renly himself, so no, its not as if everyone expects him to be okay with it and I am not entirely sure where that came from. Besides, that hilarity and joy soon dissapates when Renly dies almost instantly and Stannis suddenly has an army, when they were expecting and hoping for a polonged engagement. Then its back to pants filling terror.

1. Stannis crowns himself after Renly, im pretty sure that makes Renly king before Stannis

2.By killing Renly, Stannis changed the amount of men the Lannisters had to fight from 70K to 20k. and im pretty sure that the Lannisters were more scared of the former.

[Bronn Urgandy]

1. Stannis crowns himself after Renly, im pretty sure that makes Renly king before Stannis

2.By killing Renly, Stannis changed the amount of men the Lannisters had to fight from 70K to 20k. and im pretty sure that the Lannisters were more scared of the former.

1. Lol okay, fair enough. I can appreciate a good bit of facetiousness. Renly wore his lovely flowery crown before Stannis went all Jonny Storm "Flame on!" hurhur Geddit? Birth order though, Stannis comes before Renly, remember the Northern dilemna with regards to this?

2. The Tyrell conundrum. Yes, I'll agree that did bite him in the arse a little bit, though while they feared Renly's numbers, they feared Stannis cos its Stannis (not fanboying). Stannis' best hope was them staying out of the war completely.

[perplexed_mind]

Eddard Stark should have shown up to the Tower of Joy and challenged Arthur Dayne to single combat the dishonorable scumbag. He bloody cheated! 7 on 3 bullshit!

Aye, because they had set an agreed upon time to fight and one side broke that agreement.

Not the same.

[Bronn Urgandy]

1 If rebelling against and attacking a king also means attacking everyone else in between on the line of succession, what was Ned's argument vis a vis Rhaegar's kids being killed? Shouldn't that have been understood?

His argument mostly hinges on them being children, but that is why we love Ned. Maybe they could be held in custardy or something but more savvy people realised that alive they are a danger. Is Renly a Ned Stark spare the children type? Or do we get a good view of his opinion re; rival claimants in GOT? Because they very much are rival claimants.

[MyLittleFinger]

Aye, because they had set an agreed upon time to fight and one side broke that agreement.

Not the same.

Is not Dayne the most respected knight in the realm? Ned should have asked him for a 1 vs 1, no doubt Dayne would agree...they're on equal footing...

[Sullen]

1. Lol okay, fair enough. I can appreciate a good bit of facetiousness. Renly wore his lovely flowery crown before Stannis went all Jonny Storm "Flame on!" hurhur Geddit? Birth order though, Stannis comes before Renly, remember the Northern dilemna with regards to this?

2. The Tyrell conundrum. Yes, I'll agree that did bite him in the arse a little bit, though while they feared Renly's numbers, they feared Stannis cos its Stannis (not fanboying). Stannis' best hope was them staying out of the war completely.

1. The Northern dilemma concluded that neither of them was fit for the Crown, whether Stannis comes 2nd or 4th, the Crown is not his, it's Joffrey's, and can only be taken from Joffrey.

2. More than "It's Stannis!", I'd say the Lannisters were freaking out because they didn't have time to regroup for the defence of King's Landing. They were expecting Tywin to be able to disengage from the Northmen and join them, Stannis mirking Renly and then taking Storm's End in a matter of weeks expedited everything and left them rather unprepared.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Renly was a known degenerate. He deserved to die

[Bronn Urgandy]

1. The Northern dilemma concluded that neither of them was fit for the Crown, whether Stannis comes 2nd or 4th, the Crown is not his, it's Joffrey's, and can only be taken from Joffrey.

2. More than "It's Stannis!", I'd say the Lannisters were freaking out because they didn't have time to regroup for the defence of King's Landing. They were expecting Tywin to be able to disengage from the Northmen and join them, Stannis mirking Renly and then taking Storm's End in a matter of weeks expedited everything and left them rather unprepared.

1. Yeah but they plan on disinhereting Joffrey, then Tommen (note that please). While searching for an alternative they refuse Renly despite the fact that he is offering purely because Stannis exists but cant choose him because no one knows what the hell he is doing. Stannis was the most viable until Jon Umber had too much to drink.

2. Was thinking of the numerous quotes pinpointing Stan as the real threat.

Renly was a known degenerate. He deserved to die

Whut?

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

Well at the end of the day, Stannis was about as useful as nipples on a breastplate (as he just expected the realms to flock to his side) when shit hit the fan. Why wasn't he making alliances as soon as he found out the truth about Joffrey? Renly took advantage of a situation very quickly as soon as he saw his brothers inactivity and became an effective King in his own right. Yes, lawfully he was wrong. And yes, his main flaw was his arrogance, which lead to his downfall. But let's face it, he actually got off his arse and made himself a King, and people followed him because of it. Stannis should have either bent his will and given into Renly's superiority as a ruler or tried to take him on honourably. The Reach wasn't going to willingly follow him after the assassination of their King, and it bit him in the backside as they just joined the Lannisters.

Plus, sending a shadow demon to assassinate Renly was just so cheap. Stannis paints himself as someone who respects justice and honour, but when given the sneaky option to effectively wipe out his only competition as a rightful claimant to the throne he resorts to that. If he had defeated Renly in single combat, he would have won the loyalties of all the Reach and Stormlands armies fairly and may have won the battle at Blackwater.

I struggle to see why everyone loves Stannis so much; in my eyes he is simply a stubborn ass who believes that the sun shines from his rectum and that he deserves the loyalty of everyone in the kingdom simply because he has stated that he is the rightful heir. His only redeemable quality is that he just cuts through the rubbish and says what he thinks whatever the consequences. But that doesn't make a likable person, nor does it make a good ruler. I sincerely believe he would be a terrible tyrant if he got into power and really want some ill to befall him just so he doesn't get the chance.

Ok, bring on the flame.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Well at the end of the day, Stannis was about as useful as nipples on a breastplate (as he just expected the realms to flock to his side) when shit hit the fan. Why wasn't he making alliances as soon as he found out the truth about Joffrey? Renly took advantage of a situation very quickly as soon as he saw his brothers inactivity and became an effective King in his own right. Yes, lawfully he was wrong. And yes, his main flaw was his arrogance, which lead to his downfall. But let's face it, he actually got off his arse and made himself a King, and people followed him because of it. Stannis should have either bent his will and given into Renly's superiority as a ruler or tried to take him on honourably. The Reach wasn't going to willingly follow him after the assassination of their King, and it bit him in the backside as they just joined the Lannisters.

Plus, sending a shadow demon to assassinate Renly was just so cheap. Stannis paints himself as someone who respects justice and honour, but when given the sneaky option to effectively wipe out his only competition as a rightful claimant to the throne he resorts to that. If he had defeated Renly in single combat, he would have won the loyalties of all the Reach and Stormlands armies fairly and may have won the battle at Blackwater.

I struggle to see why everyone loves Stannis so much; in my eyes he is simply a stubborn ass who believes that the sun shines from his rectum and that he deserves the loyalty of everyone in the kingdom simply because he has stated that he is the rightful heir. His only redeemable quality is that he just cuts through the rubbish and says what he thinks whatever the consequences. But that doesn't make a likable person, nor does it make a good ruler. I sincerely believe he would be a terrible tyrant if he got into power and really want some ill to befall him just so he doesn't get the chance.

Ok, bring on the flame.

I dont even entirely disagree. I got no problem with the shadowbaby but he'd be hard work as King. Were it not for the pending Ice Zombie invasion his good qualities may have become near unrecognisable

[titanx5]

Well at the end of the day, Stannis was about as useful as nipples on a breastplate (as he just expected the realms to flock to his side) when shit hit the fan. Why wasn't he making alliances as soon as he found out the truth about Joffrey? Renly took advantage of a situation very quickly as soon as he saw his brothers inactivity and became an effective King in his own right. Yes, lawfully he was wrong. And yes, his main flaw was his arrogance, which lead to his downfall. But let's face it, he actually got off his arse and made himself a King, and people followed him because of it. Stannis should have either bent his will and given into Renly's superiority as a ruler or tried to take him on honourably. The Reach wasn't going to willingly follow him after the assassination of their King, and it bit him in the backside as they just joined the Lannisters.

Plus, sending a shadow demon to assassinate Renly was just so cheap. Stannis paints himself as someone who respects justice and honour, but when given the sneaky option to effectively wipe out his only competition as a rightful claimant to the throne he resorts to that. If he had defeated Renly in single combat, he would have won the loyalties of all the Reach and Stormlands armies fairly and may have won the battle at Blackwater.

I struggle to see why everyone loves Stannis so much; in my eyes he is simply a stubborn ass who believes that the sun shines from his rectum and that he deserves the loyalty of everyone in the kingdom simply because he has stated that he is the rightful heir. His only redeemable quality is that he just cuts through the rubbish and says what he thinks whatever the consequences. But that doesn't make a likable person, nor does it make a good ruler. I sincerely believe he would be a terrible tyrant if he got into power and really want some ill to befall him just so he doesn't get the chance.

Ok, bring on the flame.

I doubt Stannis would be a Tyrant the only people who suggest he would be a terrible king are LF and Varys the men you represent all that is good and honorable, and Renly's fellow sword swallow-er Loras. Plus he would be a lot better than Robert not that thats saying much. But during his time at KL and DS he seems to be good with administration duties. People dont particularly like him, and not the type of guy to have a party with, but that doesnt make you automatically a bad king

In regards to fighting 'honorable' even if Stannis fights single combat he would still be a kinslayer regardless, and as soon as that happens you will have Loras wanting to also reclaim vengeance and Brienne even, so doubt that option is so much better.

But I do agree with you that Stannis should have done more to get allies particularly when he discovered the incest, he just didnt do enough, did Roberts death come to soon maybe, before he was ready I dont know, but he was really bad when formalizing a plan. But he needed to confront Renly as he didnt have enough men and bending the knee to a brother a decade younger than you its an insult you have to look at things as if you where an older brother in the feudal times, I wrote that in my previous post so not going to write all that again