James Arryn Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I hear James Arryn faked his birth certificate and isn't even from Westeros.Oh, fuck me! I always knew truth would out. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Clearly you've played knify spoony before.This is tricky. On the one hand I'm old enough to know a Simpsons reference, but on the other 'just barely'. So you may in fact have a much better CV for effective political and moral leadership than myself/be older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ambolt Dorseaux Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It's the argument that Tywin makes to Tyrion, "why is it more noble to kill 10,000 men in combat than a dozen at dinner". Had Robb Stark and Renly Baratheon died sword-in-hand, amidst a great battle, it would have been seen as a noble and glorious death. But, Stannis and Tywin can't get to them conventionally and both feel that they are justified in their actions. Robb/Renly were seen as grasping for thrones that weren't rightfully theirs, yet they were honorable men who many felt deserved more than to be cut down in such backhanded ways. However, when it comes to Renly, i personally feel that he should have been flogged before being killed, if just for his pretentiousness. All he had to do was go to Stannis and say, 'make me your heir and i will deliver the Tyrells', and Stannis would most likely have agreed since he is unlikely to have any more children. Like Catelyn said in ACoK, Robert had Ned/Jon to advise him patience, Renly had no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It's the argument that Tywin makes to Tyrion, "why is it more noble to kill 10,000 men in combat than a dozen at dinner". Had Robb Stark and Renly Baratheon died sword-in-hand, amidst a great battle, it would have been seen as a noble and glorious death. But, Stannis and Tywin can't get to them conventionally and both feel that they are justified in their actions. Robb/Renly were seen as grasping for thrones that weren't rightfully theirs, yet they were honorable men who many felt deserved more than to be cut down in such backhanded ways. However, when it comes to Renly, i personally feel that he should have been flogged before being killed, if just for his pretentiousness. All he had to do was go to Stannis and say, 'make me your heir and i will deliver the Tyrells', and Stannis would most likely have agreed since he is unlikely to have any more children. Like Catelyn said in ACoK, Robert had Ned/Jon to advise him patience, Renly had no one.Why would the Tyrells agree to that? They can just marry Joff and skip the middle man/not rebel and get the Crown Mace craves. Why go to war for an off chance? And Stannis' wife happens to be their greatest political adversary, not to mention Mace firmly believes Stannis holds a grudge (true) and wants no part of him. Stannis doesn't play well with people; that has real political impact.Renly was enough to get them to choose him as king over Joff. It's not enough to get them to commit political suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 i love this rationale, honestly.If I break into your home and try and kill your family, can I then kill you in self-defense if you reach for a baseball bat?Storms End belongs to the Baratheons. Stannis is a Baratheon. Stannis believes (correctly), that Cersei's kids aren't Roberts. Stannis is King. Stannis was taking what was his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Storms End belongs to the Baratheons. Stannis is a Baratheon. Stannis believes (correctly), that Cersei's kids aren't Roberts. Stannis is King. Stannis was taking what was his.Nope. SE belonged to a different house. Starks can't just up and take the Karhold, and in Stannis' defense, he specifically acknowledges that it's not his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Again what else was Stannis supposed to do? Renly was going to attack him and kill him the next morning. His choices were bend the knee, fight and die, or use the shadow baby. Can anyone give a reasonable argument of why the former two would be preferable somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It's the argument that Tywin makes to Tyrion, "why is it more noble to kill 10,000 men in combat than a dozen at dinner". Had Robb Stark and Renly Baratheon died sword-in-hand, amidst a great battle, it would have been seen as a noble and glorious death. But, Stannis and Tywin can't get to them conventionally and both feel that they are justified in their actions. Robb/Renly were seen as grasping for thrones that weren't rightfully theirs, yet they were honorable men who many felt deserved more than to be cut down in such backhanded ways. However, when it comes to Renly, i personally feel that he should have been flogged before being killed, if just for his pretentiousness. All he had to do was go to Stannis and say, 'make me your heir and i will deliver the Tyrells', and Stannis would most likely have agreed since he is unlikely to have any more children. Like Catelyn said in ACoK, Robert had Ned/Jon to advise him patience, Renly had no one. Actually, that was one of the things Stannis offered to Renly, that he would declare Renly as his official heir until he sires a trueborn son, as long as he bends knee. And also this: Why would the Tyrells agree to that? They can just marry Joff and skip the middle man/not rebel and get the Crown Mace craves. Why go to war for an off chance? And Stannis' wife happens to be their greatest political adversary, not to mention Mace firmly believes Stannis holds a grudge (true) and wants no part of him. Stannis doesn't play well with people; that has real political impact.Renly was enough to get them to choose him as king over Joff. It's not enough to get them to commit political suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narea Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It was an awesome, excellent military solution which minimized casualties. Oh wow...No, just no. Sure, from a tactical standpoint it was the best move Stannis could make at SE, but strategically? The decision to attack SE at all at that time cost him the war. (Even if we ignore the fact that the way he went about dealing with Renly and SE cost him the loyalty of his new troops.) Just another proof that besides politics Stannis sucks at strategy as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Again what else was Stannis supposed to do? Renly was going to attack him and kill him the next morning. His choices were bend the knee, fight and die, or use the shadow baby. Can anyone give a reasonable argument of why the former two would be preferable somehow?Not attack Storm's End? Renly absolutely does not think of Stannis as an enemy before that; like the rest of Westeros, he assumes they are on the same side/the Lannisters are the main issue. Hasn't heard anything from him in years, but assumes their interests coincide when he thinks of it. Acting like the situation Stannis created was something that happened to him is silly, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard of the Rainking Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Killing a traitor is justified. Kinslaying not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titanx5 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Yay we havnt had a Stannis Renly thread is such a long time This topic has been run to the ground However some people are failing to see the view of an older brother Renly born 277 ACStannis born 264AC thats 13yrs difference thats a huge amount, so you are the older brother fought in battles, and your much younger brother suddenly says I'm king. Its an insult, and whoever denies this is really not looking at things clearly. Laws of succession are put in place for a reason, yet you have a guy who suddenly thinks oh I feel I would be a better king, its not like Stannis is Maegor the Cruel or some terrible mass murdering king, its your brother you hasnt done anything bad. You should support your older brother. Remember Renly would have killed Stannis, if it was not at this battle then it would have been further down the line as he is a threat to your legitimacy. People also give this excuse oh he was trying to fight the Lannisters and felt threatened, then why call yourself king? He knew what he was doing and how his brother would react. So for people who keep defending Renly stop fooling yourself, Renly was wrong end of story. Stannis should have killed Renly during battle what with 5000 men? c'mon. Stannis should have fought him in single combat, what for why must you fight your younger brother for what rightfully belongs to you, he still would have been labelled as a kinslayer, even if in self defense. And still Loras would have run off joined the Lannisters or also want to fight Stannis in single combat so would Brienne of Tarth, so must Stannis keep on fighting single combat that whole day? No. Stannis beat Renly to the punch, saved soldiers lives. He gave Renly a chance, and his younger brother still did not change his attitude. So just stop and look at things from an older brothers perspective and how insulting it would be to kneel to a brother a decade younger than you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 No it wasn't justified, it was done to gain control of an ugly chair Stannis was wrong for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 This is not the only time in the books when someone uses the fruits of blood magic for a military advantage or decides to attack before the agreed-upon time.Yes, because Renly was definitely as bad as the GM of Astapor. Totally apt comparison. *rolls eyes* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jankmaster Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I wish tone could carry over in type so this doesn't sound mean, but honestly could someone explain to me this- how is Renly crowning himself not a threat to Stannis or his daughter? Does Renly plan to start a new line of sucession based off the cadet house Bartheon of SE with Baratheon of DS separate? He still tries to claim it as Bobs bro right? So his claim is still weaker than Stannis' and any children Stannis has or could have. Even if lords don't like Stannis enough to plot against Renly on Stannis' behalf I am certain that down the line any one from Stannis' line is an intrinsic threat merely by existing. Renly would know this and probably has plans to kill Stannis and neutrailze Shireen, I'm that this line of reasoning is part of his decision to Siege SE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Yay we havnt had a Stannis Renly thread is such a long time This topic has been run to the ground However some people are failing to see the view of an older brother Renly born 277 AC Stannis born 264AC thats 13yrs difference thats a huge amount, so you are the older brother fought in battles, and your much younger brother suddenly says I'm king. Its an insult, and whoever denies this is really not looking at things clearly. Laws of succession are put in place for a reason, yet you have a guy who suddenly thinks oh I feel I would be a better king, its not like Stannis is Maegor the Cruel or some terrible mass murdering king, its your brother you hasnt done anything bad. You should support your older brother. Remember Renly would have killed Stannis, if it was not at this battle then it would have been further down the line as he is a threat to your legitimacy. People also give this excuse oh he was trying to fight the Lannisters and felt threatened, then why call yourself king? He knew what he was doing and how his brother would react. So for people who keep defending Renly stop fooling yourself, Renly was wrong end of story. Stannis should have killed Renly during battle what with 5000 men? c'mon. Stannis should have fought him in single combat, what for why must you fight your younger brother for what rightfully belongs to you, he still would have been labelled as a kinslayer, even if in self defense. And still Loras would have run off joined the Lannisters or also want to fight Stannis in single combat so would Brienne of Tarth, so must Stannis keep on fighting single combat that whole day? No. Stannis beat Renly to the punch, saved soldiers lives. He gave Renly a chance, and his younger brother still did not change his attitude. So just stop and look at things from an older brothers perspective and how insulting it would be to kneel to a brother a decade younger than you What about their dick sizes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I wish tone could carry over in type so this doesn't sound mean, but honestly could someone explain to me this- how is Renly crowning himself not a threat to Stannis or his daughter? Does Renly plan to start a new line of sucession based off the cadet house Bartheon of SE with Baratheon of DS separate? He still tries to claim it as Bobs bro right? So his claim is still weaker than Stannis' and any children Stannis has or could have. Even if lords don't like Stannis enough to plot against Renly on Stannis' behalf I am certain that down the line any one from Stannis' line is an intrinsic threat merely by existing. Renly would know this and probably has plans to kill Stannis and neutrailze Shireen, I'm that this line of reasoning is part of his decision to Siege SE. He tried to claim the IT not as Bob's bro but by right of conquest, similar to what Bob did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jankmaster Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 He tried to claim the IT not as Robb's bro but by right of conquest. Doesn't that make Stannis and his lines "rightful heir" thingy even more dangerous in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Doesn't that make Stannis and his lines "rightful heir" thingy even more dangerous in the future? The line of Stannis could never have been in a greater danger than the current position. Stannis would not have anything to fear as long as he bent knee to Renly. Was not it the same thing he offered Renly? Do you think Stannis would eventually get Renly killed to secure his line even if he bent knee? That is an awkward thoguht considering that Stannis offered Renly to be his heir if he bent knee to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jankmaster Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The line of Stannis could never have been in a greater danger than the current position. Stannis would not have anything to fear as long as he bent knee to Renly. Was not it the same thing he offered Renly? Do you think Stannis would eventually get Renly killed to secure his line even if he bent knee? That is an awkward thoguht considering that Stannis offered Renly to be his heir if he bent knee to him. Wait.. I think i'm a little confused here... What were Renly's terms to Stannis if any? I know that realisticaly he doesn't really need to because of the huge army disadvantage Stannis has, but is there anything? Also, my main thing is that probably Renly would order the assassinations of Stannis and Shireen if Stannis bent the knee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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