jon stark I Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Theon was reminded by the Starks on various occasions that he wasn't a Stark, intentionally or not. So if he isn't a Greyjoy, who is he? I don't see what choice Theon had but to obey his father. No whenever Starks reminded him that indirectly Theon was doing something stupid or dangerous.And in the end Robb gave Theon the highest honor, he gave him a place in his side and he trusted him enough to send him home to be his messenger.Theon wasn't clever enough to understand it only after everything turned bad he starting thinking.His father gave him nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grandmaster Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 No whenever Starks reminded him that indirectly Theon was doing something stupid or dangerous.And in the end Robb gave Theon the highest honor, he gave him a place in his side and he trusted him enough to send him home to be his messenger.Theon wasn't clever enough to understand it only after everything turned bad he starting thinking.His father gave him nothing.Like saving Bran's life.Greyjoy called Theon Stark. Stark called Theon Greyjoy. So who is Theon? Just Theon? Theon was never going to be a Stark, but he could be a Greyjoy if he proved himself to his father, and you could see he tried his absolute best to do that. I can understand why he sided with his real family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The only one close to being misunderstood on that list is Theon and only if you let yourself drown in the drivel of his fanboys. The others are NOT misunderstood at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 but he could be a Greyjoy if he proved himself to his father No he couldn't. His father planned to invade with absolute disregard to Theon and knowing full well that Theon may be executed when he did so. Once Theon was back, Balon physically, emotionally, and psychologically abused him immediately and gave him command of a single ship. Theon could never prove himself to Balon because Balon didn't want Theon to prove himself. Balon had already raised Asha as his heir and was more than ready to sacrifice Theon in the name of invading the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Like saving Bran's life.Greyjoy called Theon Stark. Stark called Theon Greyjoy. So who is Theon? Just Theon? Theon was never going to be a Stark, but he could be a Greyjoy if he proved himself to his father, and you could see he tried his absolute best to do that. I can understand why he sided with his real family.Saving Bran's life was good but a risky move too.Theon wanted to be with his family nothing wrong with it but the thing is Theon spent too many time with Starks he misjudged his family as Starks.He returns to home expecting everyone to be happy that he returned only to see that his sister is mocking him, his father judges him without a welcome.Noone is happy to see him in fact noone cares whether he is there or not, Balon already made his plan and from the look of things he was going to attack North whether Theo came or not.Theon realizes these things too late.He captures WF a castle 8000 years old and as far as we know never captured but he doesn't even get a praise.After everything Theon realizes Starks cared more about him then Greyjoys.In name Theon was never a Stark but the sad truth s he was most happy with Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous22 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Lord Walder Frey did not need to break guest right with Rob to make his point. He could of easily refused Rob passage and fealty leaving him stranded in the neck to make his own way back. Like this,"Lord Stark, you have broken your vow to me and now my gates are closed to you, send my regards to Tywin Lannister"rob would of been sufficiently screwed, I can assure you. But, no. Frey wanted his hands dripping in Stark blood to appease his Lannister and Bolton friends. He could of pledged his fealty to the Lannisters and not helped Roose usurp the North too. What we witnessed at the RW was no form of justice. It was over zealous. Truly, do you believe Freys actions to be just? Frey did what he did to gain more power, not because he was heart broken.We've all developed sympathy for Theon. However, the Starks did not dishonor the man the way he did them. Nor did they attempt to extinguish his family line as he 'apparently' did. He was no true Iron Born nor was he a Stark. He's a fool and that's why we forgive him but even so. It's only right that his head be given to the tree. Those miller's sons at very least deserve justice, if not WF.Tywin, again completely over zealous. He's alienated the North, the Riverlands and Dorne against his family and the IT. Go look at a map of Westeros. That's over half his Kingdom vying for revenge. He condones rape, is unapologetic regarding countless massacres and is completely self absorbed. It's wise to respect him for his prowess and cunning. But forgiveness is not on the cards. Tyrion loosing that arrow into his belly was my favorite Tywin scene. Petyr, I don't hate. He's a clever bastard. He's come from nothing and has risen higher than any could of imagined. I don't exactly like him either. Like a lot of readers, I like heroic characters. Brave and daring, defending the innocent or dying in the attempt. A poor strategy for playing the game of thrones I know. But still, no matter what castles he's given or how much money he has, gimme a Brienne or a Rob Wolf any day!Pycelle, bad? Nah I don't think he's bad. He is a loathsome little pervert though. Skulking around and whispering in Lannister ears, eurgh. I felt a little 'ping' of sympathy for him in aFfC. Turns out it was just wind. Good riddance you irksome little tw*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherOfPuppy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Walder Frey violated guest right. Robb had shared his bread and salt, so, no matter whether they were friends or not, he was his first and should have been under his protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grandmaster Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Lord Walder Frey did not need to break guest right with Rob to make his point. He could of easily refused Rob passage and fealty leaving him stranded in the neck to make his own way backRobb would then attack the Twins. He wouldn't just say "oh well, I'll just turn right back round and head back for Casterly Rock then". Winterfell was everything to him. And his army wasn't going to drown in the swamps, so he would get across the Twins at all costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Robb would then attack the Twins. He wouldn't just say "oh well, I'll just turn right back round and head back for Casterly Rock then". Winterfell was everything to him. And his army wasn't going to drown in the swamps, so he would get across the Twins at all costs. Robb's army couldn't have taken the twins when he had his full force with him at the beginning of the war by the time of the Red Wedding he couldn't have even threatened that Castle.. Also attacking Casterly Rock was never an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grandmaster Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Robb's army couldn't have taken the twins when he had his full force with him at the beginning of the war by the time of the Red Wedding he couldn't have even threatened that Castle.. Also attacking Casterly Rock was never an option.I know they would never have taken Casterly Rock, but Robb and his bannermen kidded themselves into believing they could (or was that actually just the show? I forget.). The only reason they turned round because Winterfell got razed.I forgot that Robb's men said he couldn't take the Twins when he was marching south. Even still, I think Robb would be desperate enough to consider it. He can't march all the way round, and from what it sounds like, his army would drown on the wrong side of the river. Balon controls the seas, so what choice is there except to abandon Winterfell, which would be crushing for his army's morale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viserys - The last dragon Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yes, Walder is misunderstood, and I'll tell you why. The RW wasn't about getting eveb or just desserts or protection from the Lannisters. It was sucking up to Tywin. That, and sheer greed.Yes, Robb the Dumb broke the marriage oath first. Fine, withdraw the Frey troops, close the Twins, bend the knee to Joffrey. That's it, easy. Let Robb to his own devices and the Lannisters won't bother you.But no, the RW was the definition of overkill, and it was because Walder wanted Riverrun I dont agree. Even bending the knee to the Lannisters would be "wrong" (understandable, but wrong)- since his liege was fighting them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grandmaster Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 No he couldn't. His father planned to invade with absolute disregard to Theon and knowing full well that Theon may be executed when he did so. Once Theon was back, Balon physically, emotionally, and psychologically abused him immediately and gave him command of a single ship. Theon could never prove himself to Balon because Balon didn't want Theon to prove himself. Balon had already raised Asha as his heir and was more than ready to sacrifice Theon in the name of invading the North.Perhaps I misworded myself. I know he couldn't, but Theon thought he could, that's the important thing, and that's why he sided with his family. That's why he took Winterfell, to try to gain himself some credit in the eyes of his father, because he realised that his father had all but disowned him. If Asha hadn't been so spiteful, then Balon mightve actually opened his eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous22 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Robb would then attack the Twins. He wouldn't just say "oh well, I'll just turn right back round and head back for Casterly Rock then". Winterfell was everything to him. And his army wasn't going to drown in the swamps, so he would get across the Twins at all costs.Forgive me, but comments like these highlight the ignorance of the poster/reader.The wolf returned to the Twins with his tail between his legs. He was in no condition to take the Twins by force. Even with a massive army accompanied by siege weapons that would of been a costly battle. No, the Mountain would of been making his way up the neck to smash the Northmen and the Wolf who, without a Navy would of been trapped.It would of been the same deal only Walder wouldn't of tainted his name the only thing he would of lost out on was a marriage with Edmure Tully. This could of easily been arranged after the Northmen were defeated by the IT itself as a clause for surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grandmaster Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It is not ignorance. As readers, we can take a step back and have an overview of the world. We are not hindered by the thoughts and emotions that often cloud the characters' judgement. Stop mixing up what characters think they can do with what we know they actually can do. Of course Robb was in no condition to take the Twins. Of course he could never hope to take them. We know that. But would Robb? Possibly not. He is desperate to get back to Winterfell, but he has no other way to return to Winterfell. With his brothers presumed dead, I thhink he would make such a rash decision. If he doesn't go back, his army's morale will be crushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemond's Eye Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think Robb did know that he couldn't wait out a lengthy siege at The Twins to be honest. Obviously if he suspected Walder of treachery then he wouldn't have went there, but he needed Frey's men and free passage through his lands both to expel The Ironborn from The North and to return South - that's the reason he wants to try to make amends for insulting House Frey when he married Jeyne. He knew this before even crossing in the first place when he agreed to marry a Frey girl - he knew a siege would take too long then, and it would be even worse with his forces depleted, Ironborn in The North and them left as sitting ducks for a Lannister force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous22 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It is not ignorance. As readers, we can take a step back and have an overview of the world. We are not hindered by the thoughts and emotions that often cloud the characters' judgement. Stop mixing up what characters think they can do with what we know they actually can do. Of course Robb was in no condition to take the Twins. Of course he could never hope to take them. We know that. But would Robb? Possibly not. He is desperate to get back to Winterfell, but he has no other way to return to Winterfell. With his brothers presumed dead, I thhink he would make such a rash decision. If he doesn't go back, his army's morale will be crushed.One way or another. The Boy Wolf would of died smashing himself against the Twins or The Mountain, or surrendered. Walder did not need to murder them and break guest right.If we're going off topic. Rob may have decided to do something suicidal but I strongly believe his mother would of talked some sense into the boy. No idea what it would of achieved to kill what few men he had left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 One way or another. The Boy Wolf would of died smashing himself against the Twins or The Mountain, or surrendered. Walder did not need to murder them and break guest right.If we're going off topic. Rob may have decided to do something suicidal but I strongly believe his mother would of talked some sense into the boy. No idea what it would of achieved to kill what few men he had left. Why do you keep trying to insult Robb?Robb had two mistakes one was being hasty and declaring himself king without any allias(Riverrun wasn't an all y they were actually a burden) the other was marrying Jeyne.If Robb declared for Renly or Stannis before declaring himself the King then he could have been a King in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous22 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Why do you keep trying to insult Robb? Robb had two mistakes one was being hasty and declaring himself king without any allias(Riverrun wasn't an all y they were actually a burden) the other was marrying Jeyne.If Robb declared for Renly or Stannis before declaring himself the King then he could have been a King in the end. I'm not insulting Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anythingatall Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I don't think Joffrey is as a psychotic as people believe. I think a lot of it has to do with how 20-year-old JG plays him on the show, but in the book there is no torture/murder of whores, and the Sansa beatings, while brutal, would not be beyond the scope of many 13-year-old boys given unlimited power over life and death and zero accountability. So I'm not saying Joff isn't crazy, but that given his upbringing he's probably no crazier than a lot of 13 year old boys. I love my son dearly (14) but I shudder to think what he would be like if he were a medieval king. Ramsey, however, is clearly a sociopath. I've never considered this before. You are right, I always picture him older in the books (despite having watched the show after reading). Joff is fascinated with violence but again I don't think that is out of the ordinary for a 13 year old. 13 year olds who are that spoilt do exist, although thankfully most of them have that power. My sister was a nightmare at that age. I banned her from my home for, among other things, bullying my young children (they were around 5 and 2). She is in her 20s now and the most wonderful Aunt and a really good friend. Hmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon stark I Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'm not insulting Rob. Are you a Stannis fan?You keep saying Boy Robb or got his tail between his laegs and stuff that is why I said insulting.(Not angry just friendly discussion this is.I felt like Yoda when I said the last sentence) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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