Like it or not: These are the top 5 misunderstood characters

[Biter the Gallant]

"Tywin Lannister was the sole reason why the seven kingdoms were together, during the reign of Mad King Aerys. "

He was rather the man who made the state entirely dependent on his gold. When Aerys wanted to grow the Crown's income by taxing merchandise in King's Landing harbour, Tywin quickly stopped his effort (while speaking the nonsense about "defending trade" written in AWOIAF-as if there were any other great port cities on the Eastern bank of Westeros than King's Landing where traders could have gone). Tywin wanted to make sure that the king will be always dependent on Lannister gold when he has to pay his debts to the Iron Bank or anyone else, so the Lannisters always could use this situation to gain more political power. He was doing the same thing during Robert's reign as well.

He was a great politician, but he was not serving the interests of the Realm.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

Well he is misunderstood in my opinion. First, he actually thought Tysha was just a whore who was trying to hoodwink Tyrion into giving her his money. He basically said, “Daddy knows best,” but in a brutal type of way. Tywin wanted Tyrion to sees himself as something more than just a man, or dwarf, he wanted his son to realize that he was a Lannister.

Also, disagreeing with Tywin eradicating House Reyne from Westeros is a tossed up. He wanted to make sure no other houses rose up against the Lannister, or even think of plotting with houses to revoke. House Reyne did go very far in their level of disrespect too, so he wiped them all out, including the Tarbecks.

Yes, Tywin ordered the sack of Kings Landing because he needed to destroy the rest of Aerys’s army. People seem to think the Lannister wasn’t fighting any resistance from the Mad King, but there were soldiers still faithful to him. Tywin even allowed Allister Thorne to take the black. When Tywin commanded the Mountain and Amory to kill the royal family, he did not think that they would be as brutal as they were. He was even stated to say that they should’ve just suffocated the children, and just kill Ellia.

Once again, the Riverlands was the kingdom of Catelyn, and she took Tyrion. So he decided to retaliate by burning their lands, which include killing some innocent people. But, can we truly judge Tywin off Gregor’s actions?

And the RW ended the war and saved thousands of lives because let’s be honest, Robb was going to lose. Furthermore, why wouldn’t he offer the man who killed Robb forgiveness? It’s pretty silly to think that he wouldn’t.

Yes, melting ice was a low blow, but House Stark was seen as eradicated. The Lannister had no Valyrian sword, so he took the opportunity to get one. He paid the iron price for it lmao!

Right, in that scenario, I would have simply had a discussion with my son. Not have the girl raped and defiled and crush his soul.

But it's like the Red Wedding argument, yes he had a legitimate reason to attack them. But not absolutely destroy them. He went too far, and all it showed was that he couldn't instill respect in his vassals, all he could do was instill fear.

But he already had the city, they opened their gates! All he had to do was subdue the royalists and take the King prisoner and that would have ended the war but instead he ordered the devastation of the city. Innocent blood was spilled for no good reason.

Right, so burning farms and killing innocent people is a suitable reaction to the capture of a son he despised? And yes of course you can blame him for Gregor's actions, he was acting on Tywin's orders!

Ah, but surely the simple poisoning of Robb and maybe a couple of the High Lords of the North would have destroyed their morale enough to effectively end the rebellion? And even if you stubbornly disagree with that, you're also wrong on a second point: how can you possibly say that it saved thousands of lives? Thousands were killed in the actual events, so no lives were actually saved at all. There was still a chance of success for Robb's rebellion, and Tywin knew that, so he wanted a quick ending to the Kingdom of the North, but that was too brutal. Much like the destruction of House Reyne, and the sack of Kings Landing, Tywin gave orders that went too far.

It would have been somewhat acceptable to rename it, or at a stretch reforge the hilt to suit house Lannister. but to completely melt it down and make it into two swords was just so low.

I can see that you're simply going to defend Tywin at every turn, so this argument is pointless.

[The Grandmaster]

See you still don't understand...that your wrong. Walder was quite right to deny robb use of his men and even oppose him and join his enemies in brining him down. What he was not right to do was betray his own oath and murder 3500 men under his castle for the fault of one man. He was not right to then decapitate his former king and sew on a wolves head after to show off.

Well, he either had to murder them all, or murder no-one lest he incite those 3500 men to attack the Twins. Anything half-hearted he would surely be punished for.

[shadow282]

Also, many lords shares Walder’s viewpoint about holding oath to the crown higher than their liege lord. For instance, during the War of the Usurper, Robert’s own bannermen were fighting for the Mad King Aerys, instead of their liege lord. I also believe other houses chose to do the same.

Moreover, Walder Frey did not deserve to get killed when Robb first arrived to the Twins because the North was in a dire situation. Robb needed to ride south quickly to Kings Landing, and the Twins were the easiest way to do so. He sent Catelyn to make a deal with “The Late Lord Frey”. The deal included Robb marrying one of his daughter, and Arya his son, and we can surmise the deal also included protection for him.

Walder Frey is completely misunderstood because he had a legitimate reason to kill Robb, and the RW was the best option to do it.

Tywin attacked the Riverlands BEFORE Joffrey became king and the crown supported Tywin's actions. So, he wouldn't have been breaking any Crown laws to send his troops when RR first called its banners. HE BROKE HIS VOW TO RR AS HIS LIEGE LORD BEFORE RR WAS IN REBELLION. AT THE TIME, TYWIN WAS ACTUALLY THE REBEL.

Frey broke a vow much much much much much more sacred then a wedding vow in medieval times. Which means either Frey should have been put to death or Frey had no right to the RW. Again, you can't have it both ways.

[Biter the Gallant]

Concerning Walder: it is often forgotten that he had no real right to await presents and political marriages for letting Robb to use the Crossing. He was a bannerman of the Tullys, who owed them loyalty, and the Northerners were clear allies of House Tully at that moment. Walder was simply blackmailing Catelyn and Robb.

And the whole political situation has changed when Robb became his King. They were not simply "allies" anymore. After all (in theory), a king has the right to decide who he wants to marry. If your king breaks a marriage pact, that is a harsh thing (a similar situation caused the rebellion of the Laughing Storm) but by no way means that you will have the right to murder your King. Especially not when he offers something else as a compromise. And especially not under your roof as your guest.

[Frey Pie]

Well, he either had to murder them all, or murder no-one lest he incite those 3500 men to attack the Twins. Anything half-hearted he would surely be punished for.

Not exactly...seen as Walder and Roose together have over 7000 men between them. And they also control the castle...and they can also and did take most of the Lords captive. 3500 men did not need to die in any capacity

[Jon Flow]

My top 5 misunderstood characters:

1. Vargo Hoat - That damned lisp

2. Jaquen Haggar - A man needs to speak less like a creepy jerk.

3. Hodor - You can't really make yourself understood with a one word vocabulary

4. Illan Payne - See above... but without even one word.

5. Lady Stoneheart - Too bad Vocoders are still centuries away.

[Lee-Sensei]

Concerning Walder: it is often forgotten that he had no real right to await presents and political marriages for letting Robb to use the Crossing. He was a bannerman of the Tullys, who owed them loyalty, and the Northerners were clear allies of House Tully at that moment. Walder was simply blackmailing Catelyn and Robb.

And the whole political situation has changed when Robb became his King. They were not simply "allies" anymore. After all (in theory), a king has the right to decide who he wants to marry. If your king breaks a marriage pact, that is a harsh thing (a similar situation caused the rebellion of the Laughing Storm) but by no way means that you will have the right to murder your King. Especially not when he offers something else as a compromise. And especially not under your roof as your guest.

Walder had every right. Walder swore oaths to the Iron Throne and by breaking their betrothal, the Frey's were no longer obligated to help him.

[John Suburbs]

The most misunderstood character of all is Patchface. I don't know what the hell he's talking about, and I don't think anyone else does either. :ack:

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

Walder had every right. Walder swore oaths to the Iron Throne and by breaking their betrothal, the Frey's were no longer obligated to help him.

Do you mean the same Iron Throne that Walder betrayed the second he received a better offer? Face it. Throughout the course of the story, there isn't a single action that Walder Frey took that was out of loyalty.

[Sweetgirl205]

125]1. Walder Frey, Lord of the Crossing Lord Walder arrived late at the Twin, yes, he should had come earlier because his liege lord commanded him to. However, if we bypass this incident and speed to TWOFK (The War of Five Kings), he was loyal during it. In fact, you can make a very strong argument suppor6ing his decision to kill Robb Stark. The King in the North broke his oath, before the Lord of the Crossing did. Plus, Robbs actions, which were dumb, were leading to the Norths defeat, and possibly the stripping of Walders castle the reason most reader hate Walder Frey is because he killed Robb, who is one of the favorite characters of readers and show watchers Heres a very in depth thread on why Walder Frey is one of the most misunderstood characters:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118819-the-misunderstood-lord-walder-frey-he-shouldve-killed-robb/

125]2. Theon Greyjoy/Reek Theon is unfairly viewed as a turncloak because he attacked the North. However, people fail to realize that Theon was born at Pyke, and his father was his lord and king. When Robb foolishly sent him to Pyke, he gave The Prince of Winterfell the chance to side with his REAL family. Many fans think believe Theon should have never sided with his family because the Stark treated his kindly. Though, they seem to forget that Ned and his family reminded him on various occasions that he was not a true Stark. Theon was a hostage! And he did the right thing by attacking the North because his father was his king, and he declared the Iron Islands independent. Keep in mind that Robb wanted dominion over the Iron Islands too, remember, Theon said to his father that Robb would give him his crown if he swear fealty to him. House Greyjoy Do Not Sow, so his father saw the opportunity to weaken Robbs kingdom by pillaging it, and Theon came up with a masterful plan and seized it Heres a thread that shows why Theon is unfairly judge:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/122842-gtfoh-theons-actions- in-the-books-are-brave-not-arrogant/

125]3. Tywin Lannister I know I am going to hear, Tywin is the most evil character in the series, or Tywin killed the Stark, hes bad, but in reality, he isnt. Tywin Lannister was the sole reason why the seven kingdoms were together, during the reign of Mad King Aerys. Tywin Lannister almost singlehandedly restored the prestige image of House Lannister from the dirt, while his father, Tytos Lannister ruled. He also did not believe Joffrey was a bastard of incest, along with many other lords, so you cannot accuse him of opening backing a false king, Joffrey Baratheon. Tywin Lannister is a totalitarian, which means that he rule for everyones well-being, not his own. This also means that Tywin would never break an oath that can be detrimental to his family and kingdom, like Robb Stark. Tywin Lannister is also a realist, and very pragmatic in his political and war ways. If feeding prisoners became too much of a burden, he would let them starve or send them to the Wall. Also, Tywin has been shown to be merciful because he allowed Allister Thorne to join the NW, instead of getting hang, and he instructed Joffrey that the Iron Throne shouldnt attack Robbs bannermen any longer because Robb as killed. Tywin is completely misunderstood.

125]

125]4. Petyr Baelish (Lord Regent of the Vale & Lord Paramount of the Riverlands) Baelish gets hate because he betrayed Ned, but to his credit, he is a true from Rags to riches type story. Baelish has struggled to get to his status now, and he did so through his own wits. Petyr is a hard worker and business, evidence by being raised to Master of Coins. He has always been spat down upon because of his low-birth, and he realized that the only way to advance in Westeros in through cunning. This works well for Baelish because he has a certain high cunning. This is the man who singlehandedly started the TWOFK by himself. And he is currently scheming from the Vale, and its effects are showing in Kings Landing. Please dont knock the man for trying to advance himself in the world!

125]5. Grand Maester Pycelle He helped saved KL by persuading the king to open the gates. After the gates were opened, Tywins forces sacked the city, and helped secure Roberts throne. He is not a sycophant as many readers believe because during AFFC, he repeatedly warns Cersei of hers actions. Cersei, being her usual stubborn self, ignored all his Wise counsel, and it leads to hers downfall. He was chosen Grand Maester for a reason.

Does any member agree with my stance on these characters?

I agree with Littlefinger. Ned was told about a million times by various people to keep his yap shut for at least a short time longer. He didn't listen to any of them. Ned doomed himself. Heck, even Cersie warned him. Littlefinger is a schemer, but a damned smart one. He will stop at nothing to get what he wants.

[Sullen]

Do you mean the same Iron Throne that Walder betrayed the second he received a better offer? Face it. Throughout the course of the story, there isn't a single action that Walder Frey took that was out of loyalty.

Initially, he didn't betray anyone, he just sat out of the whole ordeal.

Once forced with making a decision by Robb's army, he went with whoever would offer him the best deal... nothing wrong with that.

[House Obama]

I think Theon made the logical decision from he information he knew at the time - obviously in hindsight, he would have chosen the other path, even if he never got captured by Ramsay I think.

How could I forget, helping organise the Red Wedding was so honourable... Undoubtedly Tywin is a great leader and ruler, and good military commander, but in all other aspects he has absolutely no redeemable qualities whatsoever, presumably after the death of his wife. His treatment of Tysha was absolutely abominable, and the only time he treats Tyrion with any shred of respect is when Jaime captured and likely to die, and even that was simply cordial at best.

Tywin was the man who held the seven kingdoms intact, while Aery wandered into madness… everyone has selective amnesia when I bring that up though.

Also, Tywin decided to get his hands dirty, so Robert Baratheon would not. He sacked King Landing and now all the people hate him, I read from somewhere that Robert would have been seen as the bad guy if he sacked the city because the residents would feel that he was destroying their home. Basically, Tywin protected Robert’s image. He also supported the crown by loaning money to them. Also, how many times must I reiterate this? Tywin actually believe that Tyrion’s first wife was a whore, who was just into him for his money… Tywin saved many lives by convincing Walder to do the RW too because let’s face it, Robb was a dead man either ways.

I agree with Theon, and to a certain extent Pycelle as far as the OP goes. (Pycelle had no intention to save King's Landing)

Tywin is a complete monster though, and so is Littlefinger. The may be smart, and may have "rational" reasons for the crimes they committed, but they are still very much assholes.

Walder Frey is a mixed bag for me... as far as I am concerned, the only bad thing he committed during the length of the series was the Red Wedding (which is no small deal though), otherwise he acted completely in the margins of the acceptable,

I consider Stannis an asshole, but he’s the rightful king, and his personality is just as bad Tywin… don’t deny it lol.

I see how Pycelle might be viewed as misunderstood, he did his duties as Grand Maester for all those years, he is loyal to the man he perceived as being the most fit to rule westeros. I understand why he had Aerys open his gates, the fall of King's Landing was inevitable, why not have it fall quickly without loss to the attackers, with the defenders fleeing or surrendering due to not having the advantage of walls, plus since the men taking the city are unblooded and are some of the most disciplined in westeros, a brutal sack doesn't seem likely. However for the sack he simply didn't consider the brutality of Tywin Lannister.

Tywin is morally complex, not the same thing as misunderstood.

Theon is the same, though at his darkest is nowhere near as villainous as Tywin.

Baelish isn't misunderstood or morally complex (TV show quote but still applies) "he would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes".

Walder is unpleasant and manages to make himself a villain throughout the course of the books, with his one redeeming quality being that he looks after his family, though even that doesn't extend very far.

Yes, Pycelle had no idea that Tywin was going to be that brutal in his approach, but he knew that men would die. However, I must admit that though he may have been skilled as a master, he did not hold their laws as sacred as others do.

Tywin is misunderstood.

Baelish is just someone who came from nothing, and is now successful through hard work… and cunning.

Also, Walder does care for his family. He saw an opportunity to advance them by marrying his daughter to the Stark; also, to the Lannister. Walder kept his oath during TWOFK, until Robb broke his. He also lost the son who he groomed to rule the Twins, and he lost his second oldest… Walder is misunderstood.

[Biter the Gallant]

Walder had every right. Walder swore oaths to the Iron Throne and by breaking their betrothal, the Frey's were no longer obligated to help him.

Well, the political situation was very complicated, and I do not blame Walder as a sly and powerhungry lord for his deeds, but it is very difficult to find any legal excuses for him.

First of all, when the war break out between House Lannister and House Tully, he should have joined Edmure's war efforts as his vassal. He did not do that. At that time it was not a revolt against the Iron Throne: it was a local conflict, and Robert was still alive.

Then came the point when king Joffrey declared Walder Frey a rebel. Yes, it is often overlooked, but the Iron Throne declared Walder a rebel, it was not his decision. He was mentioned in the royal decree that ordered the people listed in it to come personally to King's Landing and swore an oath. Otherwise they became considered as rebels. Well, Walder didn't do that either... so he became officially a rebel anyway, even if he did not join the war actively.

What Walder was speaking about his oath to the Iron Throne during the negotiations with Catelyn is pure bullshit, he just needed an excuse for not letting them to cross easily.

[Lee-Sensei]

Do you mean the same Iron Throne that Walder betrayed the second he received a better offer? Face it. Throughout the course of the story, there isn't a single action that Walder Frey took that was out of loyalty.

Of course not. That doesn't change the fact that he had a legitimate excuse to stay out of it.

[Lee-Sensei]

Well, the political situation was very complicated, and I do not blame Walder as a sly and powerhungry lord for his deeds, but it is very difficult to find any legal excuses for him.

First of all, when the war break out between House Lannister and House Tully, he should have joined Edmure's war efforts as his vassal. He did not do that. At that time it was not a revolt against the Iron Throne: it was a local conflict, and Robert was still alive.

Then came the point when king Joffrey declared Walder Frey a rebel. Yes, it is often overlooked, but the Iron Throne declared Walder a rebel, it was not his decision. He was mentioned in the royal decree that ordered the people listed in it to come personally to King's Landing and swore an oath. Otherwise they became considered as rebels. Well, Walder didn't do that either... so he became officially a rebel anyway, even if he did not join the war actively.

What Walder was speaking about his oath to the Iron Throne during the negotiations with Catelyn is pure bullshit, he just needed an excuse for not letting them to cross easily.

1) Robert said to make peace with the Lannisters.

2) I think you're really underestimating the time it takes to get to Kings Landing. He had to chose and decided on the one that gave him the best offer.

[House Obama]

Right, in that scenario, I would have simply had a discussion with my son. Not have the girl raped and defiled and crush his soul.

But it's like the Red Wedding argument, yes he had a legitimate reason to attack them. But not absolutely destroy them. He went too far, and all it showed was that he couldn't instill respect in his vassals, all he could do was instill fear.

But he already had the city, they opened their gates! All he had to do was subdue the royalists and take the King prisoner and that would have ended the war but instead he ordered the devastation of the city. Innocent blood was spilled for no good reason.

Right, so burning farms and killing innocent people is a suitable reaction to the capture of a son he despised? And yes of course you can blame him for Gregor's actions, he was acting on Tywin's orders!

Ah, but surely the simple poisoning of Robb and maybe a couple of the High Lords of the North would have destroyed their morale enough to effectively end the rebellion? And even if you stubbornly disagree with that, you're also wrong on a second point: how can you possibly say that it saved thousands of lives? Thousands were killed in the actual events, so no lives were actually saved at all. There was still a chance of success for Robb's rebellion, and Tywin knew that, so he wanted a quick ending to the Kingdom of the North, but that was too brutal. Much like the destruction of House Reyne, and the sack of Kings Landing, Tywin gave orders that went too far.

It would have been somewhat acceptable to rename it, or at a stretch reforge the hilt to suit house Lannister. but to completely melt it down and make it into two swords was just so low.

I can see that you're simply going to defend Tywin at every turn, so this argument is pointless.

And it seems you forgot that Lord Tytos Lannister was the ruler of Casterly Rock at that time. The Lannister had no respect from their bannermen because of his father. When Tywin eradicated House Reyne and Tarbeck, his vassals respected him, and developed a fear of respect for him. The type of fear that Christians have for God (Please do not say that I’m comparing him to God lol).

He had to kill the royal family, and their soldiers were going to protect them. Tywin ordered his men to kill them, and they probably killed citizens who fought back… also, during medieval times, when someone sacks a city, they’d rape all women.

Yes, Tywin burned lands in the Riverlands because a member of another liege lord’s family took his son. I swear many readers don’t know anything about the layers that comes with war. An army would burn another land because war could take up to 1-10+ years. Burning fertile lands help with sieges, as readers know from ASOIAF… every army does it.

I guess I can agree that poison would’ve been the… cleaner option. But yes, Tywin saved more lives with the RW because more would have died if Robb continued to fight the mighty Tywin Lannister. Plus, there was a chance that Robb would win, though it was small; for example, there’s a chance that Cuba can beat America during a war, but the chances are extremely low.

Ice was a spoil of war, so he could do whatever he wanted with it… hell, he could had even melted it into the Iron Throne… but I must admit, I was sadden when it was melted.

Hopefully I have proven to you that I am not stubborn when defending Tywin.

Tywin attacked the Riverlands BEFORE Joffrey became king and the crown supported Tywin's actions. So, he wouldn't have been breaking any Crown laws to send his troops when RR first called its banners. HE BROKE HIS VOW TO RR AS HIS LIEGE LORD BEFORE RR WAS IN REBELLION. AT THE TIME, TYWIN WAS ACTUALLY THE REBEL.

Frey broke a vow much much much much much more sacred then a wedding vow in medieval times. Which means either Frey should have been put to death or Frey had no right to the RW. Again, you can't have it both ways.

The laws of hospitality are not official laws though; for example, people do not say the N word to blacks because it is highly offensive, but you can still say it though… I do get what you are saying though. I said that the RW was going to put a blemish on House Frey “honor”.

[TallTyrion]

The laws of hospitality are not official laws though; for example, people do not say the N word to blacks because it is highly offensive, but you can still say it though… I do get what you are saying though. I said that the RW was going to put a blemish on House Frey “honor”.

They are law as much as any other law put forth in the series. I'm not sure what you mean by "official" law.

[TallTyrion]

Also, how many times must I reiterate this? Tywin actually believe that Tyrion’s first wife was a whore, who was just into him for his money… Tywin saved many lives by convincing Walder to do the RW too because let’s face it, Robb was a dead man either ways.

Well the gang rape of a child is no problem in that case... I mean he had a good reason right, why are people getting so bent out of shape?

[Maid So Fair]

Walder had every right. Walder swore oaths to the Iron Throne and by breaking their betrothal, the Frey's were no longer obligated to help him.

Not helping someone =/= let's kill that someone and all his friends AND allies AND soldiers AND his pet.