Like it or not: These are the top 5 misunderstood characters

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

Tywin actually believe that Tyrion’s first wife was a whore, who was just into him for his money

The only evidence he has of this is that she is lowborn. Apparently, that's all the evidence he needs to order the gang rape of a child.

[Lee-Sensei]

Not helping someone =/= let's kill that someone and all his friends AND allies AND soldiers AND his pet.

I never said the RW was okay, but if he had closed off the Twins to Robb, joined the Lannisters and killed Robb out in the open I wouldn't fault him for it.

[Maid So Fair]

I never said the RW was okay, but if he had closed off the Twins to Robb, joined the Lannisters and killed Robb out in the open I wouldn't fault him for it.

Nor would most people who criticise the man, or at least not to such an extent. Still, he did it, so when people condemn him for it that hardly means he's misunderstood. It's perfectly possible to understand someone's motives and still disagree with their actions.

[Lord of the Dreadfort]

Theon is not a bad person. He is stupid.

Really? Tywin is misunderstood? the only thing he loves is honour, look at all the things he did.

[imaginepageant]

Everyone tends to view Lord Frey as conniving and treacherous, but why? He do what Jaime does, protect their family.

I was all set to agree with you on a few points in your OP, but then I saw that.

Really? Really, dude? You spent I don't know how many pages calling Jaime "evil" and "less than scum" for all the irredeemable, inexcusable things he did to protect his goddamn family and now here you are, putting Jaime and his protection of his family in a positive light just to make your point about Walder Frey appear more legitimate.

You've contradicted your own arguments across so many threads that I'm honestly just laughing at this point. Give it up.

[Lee-Sensei]

Nor would most people when criticise the man, or at least not to such an extent. Still, he did it, so when people condemn him for it that hardly means he's misunderstood. It's perfectly possible to understand someone's motives and still disagree with their actions.

I didn't say he was.

[House Obama]

I was all set to agree with you on a few points in your OP, but then I saw that.

Really? Really, dude? You spent I don't know how many pages calling Jaime "evil" and "less than scum" for all the irredeemable, inexcusable things he did to protect his goddamn family and now here you are, putting Jaime and his protection of his family in a positive light just to make your point about Walder Frey appear more legitimate.

You've contradicted your own arguments across so many threads that I'm honestly just laughing at this point. Give it up.

Jaime is protecting his family in a very negative way. Please remember that Tommon is a spawn born from incest. And Jaime cannot defend his actions because all of his decisions have been dishonorable... most of his decision.

During TWOFK, Walder was loyal to Robb, and he secured his family's statues by marrying his daughter to Robb... Robb broke his oath before Walder, gods, and men.

So once again, in his own way, Walder has more honor than poor old dead Robb.

[House Obama]

I never said the RW was okay, but if he had closed off the Twins to Robb, joined the Lannisters and killed Robb out in the open I wouldn't fault him for it.

People brought this up before by saying, "Walder should've just fought Robb in the open." However, apparently members do not realize that Robb could not beat Robb, but if he could, why would he intentionally lose more men. If Walder killed Robb in the field then lords in the Riverlands and North would still hate him because he defeated their King.

The RW was the easiest way to kill Robb because he was going to lose the anyways. Plus, I am a firm believer that Tywin's would've strip Walder of the Twins and awarded it to someone loyal to the crown, like his brother, Kevan.

[The Grandmaster]

Tywin was the man who held the seven kingdoms intact, while Aery wandered into madness… everyone has selective amnesia when I bring that up though.

Also, Tywin decided to get his hands dirty, so Robert Baratheon would not. He sacked King Landing and now all the people hate him, I read from somewhere that Robert would have been seen as the bad guy if he sacked the city because the residents would feel that he was destroying their home. Basically, Tywin protected Robert’s image. He also supported the crown by loaning money to them.

Well, sacking a defenseless city that was surrendering for no reason... who wouldn't hate him? And let's not bother kidding ourselves, Tywin Lannister is no friend of Robert Baratheon. He didn't "protect Robert's image" out of goodwill, moreso he did so so that he could be at the head of the victory parade.

Also, how many times must I reiterate this? Tywin actually believe that Tyrion’s first wife was a whore, who was just into him for his money… Tywin saved many lives by convincing Walder to do the RW too because let’s face it, Robb was a dead man either ways.

You really believe that? You really believe that? It's quite clear that Tywin knew that she wasn't - he just kidded himself into believing she was, a trait that his daughter inherited.

[Snows Queen]

Well he did order the gang rape of his son's wife.

And watched!!! Sounds like a rapist who likes to rape by proxy to me. (Argument could also be made that Mountain helps prove this)

Pycelle helped to sack the city by telling Aerys to open the gates. There is nothing that suggests Ned and his army would have sacked the city when they got there. We know they did not sack other cities during this war. But TYWIN and PYCELLE did sack the city, nthing to misunderstand here.

I think titling this thread "Characters that are ass holes, but I like them anyway." or "Characters that are ass holes but have qualities that cancel that out." would be more appropriate. I don't believe I misunderstand these characters, just because you do not like or agree with a character does not mean you misunderstand them, imo.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Well, sacking a defenseless city that was surrendering for no reason... who wouldn't hate him?

Is this going to become the new in-thing to say about Tywin? That he sacked King's Landing just for the lulz?

He obviously should have just called in a drone strike on the Red Keep :rolleyes:

[imaginepageant]

You really believe that? You really believe that? It's quite clear that Tywin knew that she wasn't - he just kidded himself into believing she was, a trait that his daughter inherited.

In fact, Jaime says outright that "she was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie Father commanded me to tell." Tywin did think Tysha was only interested in Tyrion for his money—and considering Tywin's belief that Tyrion was basically worthless, that's the conclusion he would logically come to about a pretty lowborn girl marrying his malformed imp of a son—but it's pretty clear that Tywin knew Tysha was not, in fact, a whore.

[Axell Redhand]

So... one character does a bunch of vile, awful, contemptible shit for entirely self-serving reasons and he's less than scum. But if a different character does a bunch of vile, awful, contemptible shit for entirely self-serving reasons then he's just misunderstood?

Got it.

[The Grandmaster]

Is this going to become the new in-thing to say about Tywin? That he sacked King's Landing just for the lulz?

He obviously should have just called in a drone strike on the Red Keep :rolleyes:

well, it really wouldn't be that hard to simply occupy the city, their army is certainly large enough. Nobody sacks a city that surrenders quickly, cities are only sacked when usually there has been a long siege and the army has been through tough times. They've had to camp outside the walls for months on end, eating off scraps, enduring often dreadful conditions, making multiple assaults on the gates, seeing their comrades die. They're angry, tired, demoralised, maybe homesick, so the commander sacks the city to appease their men. Had the Lannisters besieged King's Landing? No. Had the Lannisters had a long war campaign? No. So was there any justification for sacking KL? No.

[imaginepageant]

So... one character does a bunch of vile, awful, contemptible shit for entirely self-serving reasons and he's less than scum. But if a different character does a bunch of vile, awful, contemptible shit for entirely self-serving reasons then he's just misunderstood?

Got it.

Don't forget! If another different character murders two innocent children to show his men who's in charge, it's totally cool! If his buddies rape a bunch of women and kill a bunch of men because their religion says it's all right, it totally is!

(This was House Obama's logic re: Theon and the Ironborn on another thread.)

[House Obama]

So... one character does a bunch of vile, awful, contemptible shit for entirely self-serving reasons and he's less than scum. But if a different character does a bunch of vile, awful, contemptible shit for entirely self-serving reasons then he's just misunderstood?

Got it.

Well, I do back up all my points very well. If I do say so myself.

In fact, Jaime says outright that "she was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie Father commanded me to tell." Tywin did think Tysha was only interested in Tyrion for his money—and considering Tywin's belief that Tyrion was basically worthless, that's the conclusion he would logically come to about a pretty lowborn girl marrying his malformed imp of a son—but it's pretty clear that Tywin knew Tysha was not, in fact, a whore.

I still think he did think that... and you have a good point when you say that Tywin could never picture anybody would like Tyrion because he's a dwarf. Tyrion is so ugly that he make babies cry, so Tywin thought hat she was pretending to like him... which I can't really blame for thinking that. However, I can blame Tywin for the treatment of Tysha.

Is this going to become the new in-thing to say about Tywin? That he sacked King's Landing just for the lulz?

He obviously should have just called in a drone strike on the Red Keep :rolleyes:

Way too many readers think too softly and passively. Pick up a history book everyone because war is never pretty or decent. Sacking always involved raping and murdering, and the innocents always pay the price.

[Ramsay Gimp]

In fact, Jaime says outright that "she was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie Father commanded me to tell." Tywin did think Tysha was only interested in Tyrion for his money—and considering Tywin's belief that Tyrion was basically worthless, that's the conclusion he would logically come to about a pretty lowborn girl marrying his malformed imp of a son—but it's pretty clear that Tywin knew Tysha was not, in fact, a whore.

As fucked up as it is, Tywin probably believed he was truly doing Tyrion a favor. He was influenced by the memory of his own father's lowborn mistress; a manipulative and ambitious woman who shamed House Lannister.

None of that makes what he did any less horrific and evil, though.

Way too many readers think too softly and passively. Pick up a history book everyone because war is never pretty or decent. Sacking always involved raping and murdering, and the innocents always pay the price.

I'm not defending the sack on moral grounds (which it seems like you are), only arguing against the idea that Tywin was interested in pointless brutality. The rapes, looting, and butchery of civilians was an awful side effect of his actual objective, which was to secure the city for Robert and wipe out the Targaryen family. Elia and her kids mays have fared better if Ned or Robert took the city, but the common people would be just as fucked.

Tywin was a monster, but he was a pragmatic monster. Lots of people on here seem to think he was just a smarter version of Joffrey

[imaginepageant]

Well, I do back up all my points very well. If I do say so myself.

If by "very well" you mean "by insisting that the many, many people who disagree with me are simply blind, forgetful, passive, or narrow-minded" then sure. You do.

Your arguments would go over much better if you stopped presenting your opinions as facts, and pretentiously patronizing anyone who disagrees with you.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I kind of love Walder Frey. The thing I like is that he is an irredeemable shitheel but he never pretends to be anything else. On rereads after the pain has faded, it's rather amusing watching Catelyn and Robb flail about because they are like "there's no way we can trust him he's horrible! But we have no choice! But he's so obviously horrible and we are doooomed!" And then they still do it. *siiighh...* Anway, he's gross, honorless, and entirely selfish, but he's not trying to justify himself in any way. I can respect that.

Theon is a grey character with lots of fans. Honestly after adwd most everyone understands where he's coming from as a character even if he was an insecure fratboy douchebag in book 1-2.

Tywin is a freaking psychopath. He rapes his son and his wife by proxy and there's no way he did it for Tyrion's good. He did it because he hates Tyrion and wants to make him suffer as much as is legally permissible. He enjoys the suffering that he causes others - he's just smart enough to keep his hands clean (with the help of other less scrupulous psychopaths).

Littlefinger is quite an interesting character, IMO, but again, I don't think he's misunderstood by many people. He glories in his own advancement and cleverness mostly, and he's without much of a moral sense.

Pycelle is an insufferable toady but I don't really blame him. At least he's loyal.

[Axell Redhand]

Your arguments would go over much better if you stopped presenting your opinions as facts, and pretentiously patronizing anyone who disagrees with you.

Would they really, though? Not to pick fights, but I've abused my mind by reading all of his threads and many of his supporting posts. There's absolutely no substance there. If he -weren't- forcefeeding his opinions as gospel and acting like everyone who disagrees just doesn't "get it" - then he'd be forced to support his opinions with logic and reason, which is clearly impossible because the things he says are batshit crazy. Honestly, I think the "I'm totally right ~fingers in ears~ lalalalala" approach is probably his best bet.