Jaime Will be King

[Howling Mad]

Just no. Jaime passed on his chance to assume the throne.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe I could sort of see a Dany, Sansa, and Jaime/Tyrion (whoever actually is Aerys bastard) triumverate on the throne. At least that way there would be one legit Targ present.

But, no... Not really.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Lol, No.

He's made kings and unmade them. He won't be one himself. He will, however, be Goldhand the Good.

[Julia H.]

<snip>

You have presented some interesting arguments that are worth considering, but there are also quite a few things in your theory that sound less than convincing. So let me nitpick.

I will get to Jon in a moment, but let’s just say he won’t be king, because I know he won’t be (that’s not Martin’s style, its waaay too obvious).

<snip>

Which is exactly why he won’t get the throne. If this were anyone but GRRM then yes he most likely would be king. This is an honest observation here, but has no one found it the least bit peculiar that (and I firmly believe this), he is The Prince that was Promised, not the King that was Promised? I mean yes you could argue that he is a prince now, and will become king later, but that just sounds a bit too simple and straightforward for Martin.

I don't think it's a good idea to present your personal opinion as fact (i.e. as one of the arguments that you use to back up your theory) on the basis of what Martin would or would not do. Unless you are GRRM or at least someone who can read his mind, you cannot know for sure in what ways he may plan to subvert a trope (if at all) or what twists he can think of that does not occur to you or to me and how those twists would fit in with his writing style. Besides if obvious and too straightforward are valid arguments against a certain type of plot development, then they are valid arguments against other types as well. Look at this:

Has no one found it passing odd that Daenerys cannot have any more children??? I mean, plot wise why bother to include that bit. You could say that was to add to her suffering, and yes it did. However, Drogo was already dead, at her own folly no less. Adding more on top of that for no reason was unnecessary. There has to be a reason she can’t have any more children.

One could equally say it is way too obvious that Daenerys cannot have any more children (it is said, she is sure of it, the readers are made to expect it), but since it is not Martin's style, she will obviously have children of her own.

If Dany has children (because it's Martin's style to make us expect something and make the opposite happen), she will have no reason to legitimize Jaime, and even if she does, her living child will be her heir.

Cersei eventually dying in the hands of the Valonqar and being replaced by a younger and more beautiful queen is also pretty obvious to the reader, but should we say that is exactly why it is unlikely to happen?

Jon's observation This is what a king should look like can definitely be an instance of foreshadowing. However, elsewhere in the novel there is apparent foreshadowing that Jon will be a king and even that Tyrion will be a king, so I think it's worth keeping an open mind when it comes to foreshadowing. For example, Jon's observation can be read in another way: Jon is comparing Jaime to Robert, whose appearance Jon has found disappointing. He does not know but he is comparing the man who killed his father to a man wearing his father's colours (crimson is a type of red), which makes the comparison rather poignant, especially that his father should have been king but was replaced by Robert.

But, Westeros will never accept the Kingslayer as king! Oh yes they will, a lot of the Lord’s won’t like it, but the common folk? The second they hear why he killed Aerys, he’ll be their hero.

I'm skeptical about this point. The common folk has not had much influence over who the king in Westeros is, nor are they very interested in it (they have more important and immediate concerns). However, if suddenly they do get enough power to influence the future of the IT, then the whole question of bloodline and legitimacy may as well be irrelevant. If they have a hero and if they have the ability and the will to make a king, they won't care whose son their hero is.

Jaime and Sansa are actually mirrors of one another. They both were very idealistic, and idolized knights and maidens (in Sansa’s case), and believed in fairy tales. Both have become disillusioned, but still retain a bit of their romantic notions at heart. Both were conceited, self-absorbed, and looked down their noses at people. Both have spent most of their time as prisoners (Ironically of their respective families, Jaime of the Stark’s, and Sansa of the Lannister’s). And both Jaime and Sansa have begun a redemption arc. I have a sneaking suspicion that instead of creating two totally separate characters; he made one older male version, and one younger female version as his starting point and branched out from there. There are differences of course, but I do find them pretty similar in basic terms.

I don't know, while there may be a few similarities between the lives of these two, I don't agree that they are mirrors of each other or that their actions and choices can be compared. How can you compare the actions and the choices of an adult knight and a child in her early teens? Regarding their redemption arcs, well, Jaime definitely needs one, but Sansa... she just needs to grow up. As for their personalities, Sansa has a lot more compassion than Jaime, and Jaime is not even close to her ideal of "a true knight". One day he might get close to it, but so far they have been very different.

Having said that, the idea that they may end up married is totally an interesting one. I just don't agree about their parallel characterization.

Jaime is the protagonist (or hero) and Bran the antagonist (or villain). The thought that the sister screwing, oath breaking, child crimpling Kingslayer is the hero, while the sweet innocent child who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, in his own home, and who is crippled by said Kingslayer is the villain seems preposterous on the surface. And that’s what makes it so brilliant.

When Bran is pushed we root for him. We want him to make it, and we despise Jaime for it. Only lately Jaime has become a far better guy, and Bran is not the nice little kid he once was. This is the contrast, they have both become crippled. Jaime has lost a hand, and Bran the use of his legs. Only, Jaime has become a better person for it, while Bran has become just the opposite.

I really don't see that happening. It is a possible theory but I don't see any evidence, so far, that Bran has become a worse person. He has warged Hodor, which he should not do, but he did it first in a situation of crisis. Also, no one seems to have told him that it's a taboo. Like everyone else, Bran may also make mistakes, and he is using Hodor as an extension of himself due to his disability. For the moment, we don't know which way the story will go. Will Bran be evil, or will he realize his mistake one day only to become a better greenseer afterwards?

Just as Jon is the champion of R’hllor, Bran is the champion of the Great Other. The only thing that I am unsure of here is whether it will be Jon or Jaime that kills Bran? Traditionally it would be Jon and they would both die (perhaps they would both battle through their direwolves?), however there is also the possibility that Jaime will finish what he started. In the show, when Catelyn asks Jaime why he pushed him, his response is “I’d hope the fall would kill him.” The irony being that come the end, the audience will have wished it killed him too.

With regard to the first (bolded) sentence above, I would say, yes, these two "facts" seem equally realistic to me. Jon is definitely not the champion of R'hllor (not at the moment anyway). He belongs to the Old Gods, just as Ghost - who also belongs to the Old Gods - belongs to him. Bran and the Great Other are linked by Melisandre only, and I don't think she is exactly reliable when interpreting her visions. The simple fact that Bran names his wolf Summer makes it unlikely that he will ever become the champion of the Great Other. I think R'hllor is just as sinister as the Others, and we still don't know if there is a Great Other at all. (For all we know, if the Great Other does exist, it may turn out to be inhabiting Hodor, in which case the fact that Bran has warged him would have a totally new significance.)

Anyway, if Bran turns out to be evil all the same, it will happen only because he has had no chance to live his life as he should have lived it, and that is to a large extent Jaime Lannister's fault, which would make it hard for me (at least) to congratulate Jaime in the end. Not to mention that, personally, I wouldn't be happy about the story if it led to the conclusion that (for an adult man and a knight) pushing an innocent seven-year-old child out of the window was actually a great idea and that it was really bad luck for everyone when that push did not kill the child. (We could just as well say that it would have been a good idea for Ned Stark to kill 9-year-old Theon because a lot of trouble could have been avoided.)

So in the end Jaime will be King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm, and Sansa his Queen. Of course if Rickon dies, Jaime would also become Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North as well. Just as Robert was Lord Paramount of the Stormlands at the same time he was king. Which would mean Jaime would end up with Ned Stark’s lands and titles. He will most likely end up with Ned Stark’s steel as well, since I believe Brienne will die (won’t get into my theory on that), and Jaime will end up in possession of Oathkeeper once more.

I suppose it's totally in character with GRRM to end his story giving one character / hero everything a man can have in this world, while all the characters who could claim one or the other of those prizes will be conveniently dead.

:idea: The theory does not mention one last Stark though, who could still return from Essos one day and stick the happy survivor with the pointy end. :P

[Maester Pangloss]

I think your post has some interesting evidence and hypotheses mixed with wild, unsupported speculation. You did not provide any evidence for Jaime and Sansa ending up together. Also, just because Jaime has Targ blood, why would that make him king over Jon or Dany? Just because Jon thinks he looks like a king?

In regards to your comment:

I just re-read the updated version of Joanna's Wiki of Ice and Fire Page and at first glance it would seem you're right. She was dismissed from court, however I think the key here is the use of the world seldom.

From A Wiki of Ice and Fire - "She (Joanna) departed for Casterly Rock at once, and would seldom visit King's Landing from that moment forth."

She was the wife of the Hand, there's no way to say she never visited her husband, the twins were born several years into their marriage. As far as I can tell the only difference is that AWOIAF makes it more likely that Joanna may have been a willing particpant.

Also I find it a bit odd that King Aerys ordered Tywin to bring Joanna and the children to King's Landing when the children were old enough to travel... If they were nothing to Aerys other than Tywin's wife and children, why would he wish Tywin to bring them?

I think this is spot on. Why would GRRM include all of those information about Aerys and Joanna's relationship if it wasn't important?

Most of Cersei's character arc mimics Aerys' - beautiful and charismatic, but paranoid and cruel; obsession with wildfire; presumably a descent into madness after being imprisoned for a period of time (Aerys at Duskendale, Cersei in Baelors).

Jaime's character arc may be the inverse of Jon's. They both have Targ blood in them. Jon starts out in black, Jaime starts out in white. Both injure their hands. Both are imprisoned by the enemy and it changes them (Jon by the Wildlings, Jaime by Robb and then Brienne/the Brave Companions). Jon starts out as the bastard and then finds out he is really king. Jaime starts as the golden son and heir to Casterly Rock, then finds out he is a bastard?

In regards to your comments about Bran being evil - I don't think he is evil, but might inadvertently become a villain. He is young, impressionable and is already enthralled with Bloodraven's teachings. Who knows what his intentions are or how he may use Bran. He can probably leverage Bran's sadness at the majority of his family being killed to manipulate him.

If Jaime is the hero and Bran is the villain, I think then that the portion of ASOIAF we have so far could be similar to the "prequel" trope you get in a lot of other stories. How did the hero become heroic and how did the villain become evil? Like Wicked to The Wizard of Oz. What unfortunate events made the villain angry at the world and want to destroy it? What motivated the possibly unwilling hero to take a stand against evil?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jaime is not meant to be King, just to make them.

[myufa]

It's so ridiculous that I just might buy it

[dunneroo]

Great theory, I definitely support this as I always felt Jaime would be king at the end for alot of the same reasons.

Bran being the villain is very interesting and I'm looking forward even more to his character arc now. However, I always thought Jon would become champion of the others with Bran warging an ice dragon by his side. This would setup a fight of the Others with Bran and Jon vs Rhollor championed by Dany and her brother Jaime.

The Starks will lose, Dany will die and Jaime will become king. It will be a bittersweet ending and I think Jaime will have respect for the Starks and place Rickon as Lord of Winterfell and warden of the north.

[Bandit Territory]

Jaime will not be king because Jon will.

Jon is too obvious only for us, because of all the exchanges on the forums and the time between the books. In the future, for normal readers, reading all the books in a relatively short period, Jon identity and fate will be hidden just what is needed.

AWoIaF more or less put an end to A+J=C+J. But like you I still believe in this theory. There are too many evidences. I think AWoIaF just left something hidden.

When I first found out about Jon I wanted him to be king, yet something kept bugging me about the concept. It just didn't seem to fit, even at the time I thought it was a bit too easy. If us forum readers figured it out so quickly... I don't know maybe I'm giving GRRM to much credit and over thinking it?

I definately agree with the second part. I mean you could say its interesting backstory and all and that's why he included it, but I think there's more to it. He included that for a reason in my opinion. If the twins are secret Targaryen's, there has to be a reason.

[Robb_Warged]

I'd rather he play kingmaker

[Garbad]

http://i.imgur.com/lKvgfEK.gif

Niiiceee.

[Bandit Territory]

Great theory, I definitely support this as I always felt Jaime would be king at the end for alot of the same reasons.

Bran being the villain is very interesting and I'm looking forward even more to his character arc now. However, I always thought Jon would become champion of the others with Bran warging an ice dragon by his side. This would setup a fight of the Others with Bran and Jon vs Rhollor championed by Dany and her brother Jaime.

The Starks will lose, Dany will die and Jaime will become king. It will be a bittersweet ending and I think Jaime will have respect for the Starks and place Rickon as Lord of Winterfell and warden of the north.

Thanks, its nice to know that I'm not alone. This is just my opinion of course, but as Jaime evolves away from being the villian, you need a replacement. Since a Lannister was the villain for the first part, it makes the most sense to have a Stark take up the role of villain. Which for me leaves either Arya or Bran. Bran just seems to be in a better location to play the role of villain than Arya does.

[Bandit Territory]

I think your post has some interesting evidence and hypotheses mixed with wild, unsupported speculation. You did not provide any evidence for Jaime and Sansa ending up together. Also, just because Jaime has Targ blood, why would that make him king over Jon or Dany? Just because Jon thinks he looks like a king?

In regards to your comment:

I think this is spot on. Why would GRRM include all of those information about Aerys and Joanna's relationship if it wasn't important?

Most of Cersei's character arc mimics Aerys' - beautiful and charismatic, but paranoid and cruel; obsession with wildfire; presumably a descent into madness after being imprisoned for a period of time (Aerys at Duskendale, Cersei in Baelors).

Jaime's character arc may be the inverse of Jon's. They both have Targ blood in them. Jon starts out in black, Jaime starts out in white. Both injure their hands. Both are imprisoned by the enemy and it changes them (Jon by the Wildlings, Jaime by Robb and then Brienne/the Brave Companions). Jon starts out as the bastard and then finds out he is really king. Jaime starts as the golden son and heir to Casterly Rock, then finds out he is a bastard?

In regards to your comments about Bran being evil - I don't think he is evil, but might inadvertently become a villain. He is young, impressionable and is already enthralled with Bloodraven's teachings. Who knows what his intentions are or how he may use Bran. He can probably leverage Bran's sadness at the majority of his family being killed to manipulate him.

If Jaime is the hero and Bran is the villain, I think then that the portion of ASOIAF we have so far could be similar to the "prequel" trope you get in a lot of other stories. How did the hero become heroic and how did the villain become evil? Like Wicked to The Wizard of Oz. What unfortunate events made the villain angry at the world and want to destroy it? What motivated the possibly unwilling hero to take a stand against evil?

Jaime would be King over Jon and Dany because I believe they will die. There's no actual evidence that can used to point towards that anymore than there is if I say that random character blah blah will die. It's just my opinion. Another reason I arrived at this conclusion is that I believe Sansa will be queen. I've just gotten queenly vibes from Sansa. As well as kingly vibes Jaime. As far as I'm concerned if Jon is king, than Sansa won't be queen. I just don't see them together.

Would you care to mententon what parts you think is interesting evidence and which parts you think are hypotheses mixed with wild, unsupported speculation? I've been thinking on this so long that it all kinda melds together. Just about every post on this forum is speculation, some more varied than others but, I will agree with you a lot of this is speculation.

And... I never used the word evil. I said villain, which is what Jaime was in the begining, so Jaime and Bran kinda flip roles in my theory.

[Maester Pangloss]

Bandit,

Sure, I wild be happy to elaborate. Basically the parts I think are speculation are about Jaime becoming king, and ending up with Sansa.

Obviously everyone speculates in their theories, but usually based on specific clues or foreshadowing, which I think you lack with these claims. There are so many hints about Sansa + Sandor and Jaime + Brienne (sort of a Beauty and the Beast motif in both cases) foreshadowed throughout the series. These have been analyzed a lot in these boards, I'd recommend doing a search for them and you will find all of the clues that other readers have dug up. I haven't seen any clues that Sansa and Jaime end up together. It seems kind of pulled out of thin air.

I agree with your points regarding A+J=J&C. Although not confirmed, there are many clues and it fits the character arcs. I also agree with the possibility of Jaime ending up the unlikely hero and Bran the unlikely villain. The story did begin to unfold with their initial altercation... It could definitely end up being these two pitted against each other at the end as well.

Again, I don't think these are necessarily true, but you have decent or interesting arguments supporting them, and so seem more within the realm of possibility.

[SugarCrisp]

Plot Twist: Jaime is the valonquar AND the younger, more beautiful queen.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

So jaime and Sansa when jaime has shown no interest or yearning for anyone but Cersei. Sansa`s gonna cure him of his incestuous infatuation? No thankyou i`m out

[Bandit Territory]

Bandit,

Sure, I wild be happy to elaborate. Basically the parts I think are speculation are about Jaime becoming king, and ending up with Sansa.

Obviously everyone speculates in their theories, but usually based on specific clues or foreshadowing, which I think you lack with these claims. There are so many hints about Sansa + Sandor and Jaime + Brienne (sort of a Beauty and the Beast motif in both cases) foreshadowed throughout the series. These have been analyzed a lot in these boards, I'd recommend doing a search for them and you will find all of the clues that other readers have dug up. I haven't seen any clues that Sansa and Jaime end up together. It seems kind of pulled out of thin air.

I agree with your points regarding A+J=J&C. Although not confirmed, there are many clues and it fits the character arcs. I also agree with the possibility of Jaime ending up the unlikely hero and Bran the unlikely villain. The story did begin to unfold with their initial altercation... It could definitely end up being these two pitted against each other at the end as well.

Again, I don't think these are necessarily true, but you have decent or interesting arguments supporting them, and so seem more within the realm of possibility.

I really appreciate your response, so thank you. As for Sansa, I don’t know if you watch the show, but at the end of season four Sansa comes down a stair case in the Eryie. It was then that I was hit with the “she shall be queen” thought.

Sansa has acted queenly from the beginning, she has always been different from the other Starks. Sansa is more refined than most other characters, I fully believe that is GRRM way of hinting that Sansa will be queen from the beginning. Sansa was so persecuted under Cersei and Joffrey in King’s Landing, she was a pawn to be thrown away. Under Baelish, Sansa could become a far better player. Since Sansa was so ill-treated in King’s Landing, I see her becoming one of the most powerful players as queen herself. She’ll be what Cersei wanted to be. Plus I just honestly can’t picture Sansa with Sandor, he’s just not her type, it’s not his physical looks that makes me think that so much as his personality.

As for Jaime and Brienne, I see them as more of a Beauty and Beast friendship relationship. I believe that Brienne loves Jaime, but not the other way around. So in my opinion it’s a case of unrequited love on her part. Jaime jumped into a Bear Pit to save Brienne, there’s a good chance Brienne will die saving Jaime. That’s how I believe Jaime will get Oathkeeper back.

As for Jaime and Sansa, I honestly think the fact that they haven’t met before is a clue. They are going to meet, after all Jaime himself said that Sansa was his last chance for honor. And despite recent events, Sansa has always wanted a golden knight to come save her.

[Garbad]

As for Jaime and Sansa, I honestly think the fact that they haven’t met before is a clue.

They met at the beginning of book 1.

[Bandit Territory]

They met at the beginning of book 1.

Did they? Because while they were both in Winterfell at the same time, I don't recall them ever interacting with each other. Just because I see someone across the room doesn't mean I've met them.

[Garbad]

I don't recall that they spoke, but if I recall correctly Jamie mentions he met her briefly later. Besides, its clear Sansa's knight is the Hound. He was, after all, her first "kiss."