Why do people hate the kick-ass character that is Arya Stark?

[ObsessedWithIceAndFire]

Your bar for complexity is far lower than mine. All you're describing is how any highborn, proper girl with any wits would behave in her situation, but not a complex one. If the above wasn't true for her I'd scorn GRRM for writing an unbelievable character.

I disagree.

I think you're just missing what we mean by "complex". Sansa is not a character as complex as, say, Jaime Lannister. Jaime Lannister is morally grey, oscillating between good and evil constantly. Struggling with the vows he has forsaken and what still remains of his honour, struggling with the love for his sister and his brother. So many inner dilemmas, so much pain and uncertainty about who he is and what he wants.

I agree that Sansa has none of that kind of complexity, supposing that was what you meant by saying "complex".

What Sansa fans mean by that, I think, is not that she is an overly complicated, convoluted character like most of the others. Simply that we find her journey though life appealing, because it feels true, and real, and painful.

She is not a flat character. She is, as you rightly put it, just a girl with sense. A girl that, at the beginning, has nothing much to recommend her to most of the audience, perhaps. She is older than Arya, but much more naive. She believes in fairytales. She has no problems with the idea of marrying a lord (or a prince, in her case) and would be contented with bearing his children, raise the, be pretty and kind and loved. And maybe this might seem less interesting than a badass little girl, but it touches my heart to think of all Sansa's dreams of love. Arya never dreams of love, not even at the beginning. Sansa is hungry for it, so much that she mistakes her desires for reality.

Then, reality strikes hard, she loses everything. I agree with you. Any girl with sense (feeling the need to stress that) would probably manage as well as she did. But you make it seem as if that was taking merits away from her. Just because others have the same ability you have, it doesn't make you any less worthy IMO.

Arya is not the only kid that could wield a sword and use it, I'd wager, given the chance. She was just luckier than others and had ways to undergo a training before she was cast on the street with nothing but her skills to survive. Isn't that what Doyle was telling Jon on the Wall, when the boy was complaining about his future "brothers" and how useless they were with a sword? They had never had one, before. That's all. So, people tend to believe that Arya is better than Sansa or more complex... but why? Because few girls know how to use a sword? They lacked the opportunity or the motivation. ANd why should a girl train with a sword? Look at Brienne. In times of peace, she is regarded almost as an abomination. Arya would have grown up to be the same, in time of peace. ANd since Arya had no clue that war would come, having trained as a swordsman (or swordsgirl) doesn't mean she is better than Sansa - just luckier to have aquired an ability that was useful in that moment.

My point being - Arya isn't any more complex than Sansa is. Just luckier in her choices (luckier, not wiser).

Returning to Sansa, as I said, she acted exactly as any other girl with sense would do. Which doesn't authomatically mean she IS just like any other girl. SHe is a Stark, and all Stark children are gifted. My bet is, her talents resemble closely those of her mother Catelyn. The womanly strenght of subtle wisdom and courtly politics - and that's why Martin placed her with Littlefinger, so that she could use her natural talents, or rahter develop them. In insight, she seems more gifted than her brothers and sisters. More cunning, more receptive. Muck quicker to get what people are thinking or plotting, once she starts to get how their mind works.

During AGOT, before I perceived this, I rather disliked Sansa. But I think she has shown complexity. And with COMPLEXITY, what I mean is, that she is a round character. She has hopes and dreams and clinging to them on one side - she is dealing with reality on the other. She has goodness and sense. Just because she is not flamboyantly doing something extraordinary, doesn't make her ordinary. She acts normally. Something Arya was never able to do. Sansa knows something really important - how to fit. Blend in. This could result in a great chance to make connection, to be loved by her people. How does that make her something less than her sister?

Thus said, I wish to say that I respect your opinion. I always get carried away when Sansa is discussed. I get why many people don't like her - but I think she deserves a little more credit than she gets by the fandom! :cool4:

[Jane99]

As I think I said way earlier in the thread - I don't hate her. I mostly feel sad for the poor little thing. Her life is one long tragedy.

But while I feel for her, I often don't feel as much for her as I do for some others. It's the whole "kickass" argument. I just don't warm much to kickass (no, I've never really liked Batman either). It's nothing to do with Arya, really - but kickass protagonists are both common and popular and I'm pretty much overdosed on 'em. The characters I tend to warm to now are quieter - the Sams and Sansas of the world. I'm not really interested in reading about assassins - or at least not for a good long while (swings and roundabouts, my tastes will no doubt change again in the future).

Similarly, I just can't get into Bran. Oh, you've got super-special magic powers? Welcome to my bookshelf, there are countless versions of you. Now please go away so I can read about how ordinary people cope with shit (helloooo, Davos).

[ckongo]

I think you're just missing what we mean by "complex". Sansa is not a character as complex as, say, Jaime Lannister. Jaime Lannister is morally grey, oscillating between good and evil constantly. Struggling with the vows he has forsaken and what still remains of his honour, struggling with the love for his sister and his brother. So many inner dilemmas, so much pain and uncertainty about who he is and what he wants.

I agree that Sansa has none of that kind of complexity, supposing that was what you meant by saying "complex".

What Sansa fans mean by that, I think, is not that she is an overly complicated, convoluted character like most of the others. Simply that we find her journey though life appealing, because it feels true, and real, and painful.

She is not a flat character. She is, as you rightly put it, just a girl with sense. A girl that, at the beginning, has nothing much to recommend her to most of the audience, perhaps. She is older than Arya, but much more naive. She believes in fairytales. She has no problems with the idea of marrying a lord (or a prince, in her case) and would be contented with bearing his children, raise the, be pretty and kind and loved. And maybe this might seem less interesting than a badass little girl, but it touches my heart to think of all Sansa's dreams of love. Arya never dreams of love, not even at the beginning. Sansa is hungry for it, so much that she mistakes her desires for reality.

Then, reality strikes hard, she loses everything. I agree with you. Any girl with sense (feeling the need to stress that) would probably manage as well as she did. But you make it seem as if that was taking merits away from her. Just because others have the same ability you have, it doesn't make you any less worthy IMO.

Arya is not the only kid that could wield a sword and use it, I'd wager, given the chance. She was just luckier than others and had ways to undergo a training before she was cast on the street with nothing but her skills to survive. Isn't that what Doyle was telling Jon on the Wall, when the boy was complaining about his future "brothers" and how useless they were with a sword? They had never had one, before. That's all. So, people tend to believe that Arya is better than Sansa or more complex... but why? Because few girls know how to use a sword? They lacked the opportunity or the motivation. ANd why should a girl train with a sword? Look at Brienne. In times of peace, she is regarded almost as an abomination. Arya would have grown up to be the same, in time of peace. ANd since Arya had no clue that war would come, having trained as a swordsman (or swordsgirl) doesn't mean she is better than Sansa - just luckier to have aquired an ability that was useful in that moment.

My point being - Arya isn't any more complex than Sansa is. Just luckier in her choices (luckier, not wiser).

Returning to Sansa, as I said, she acted exactly as any other girl with sense would do. Which doesn't authomatically mean she IS just like any other girl. SHe is a Stark, and all Stark children are gifted. My bet is, her talents resemble closely those of her mother Catelyn. The womanly strenght of subtle wisdom and courtly politics - and that's why Martin placed her with Littlefinger, so that she could use her natural talents, or rahter develop them. In insight, she seems more gifted than her brothers and sisters. More cunning, more receptive. Muck quicker to get what people are thinking or plotting, once she starts to get how their mind works.

During AGOT, before I perceived this, I rather disliked Sansa. But I think she has shown complexity. And with COMPLEXITY, what I mean is, that she is a round character. She has hopes and dreams and clinging to them on one side - she is dealing with reality on the other. She has goodness and sense. Just because she is not flamboyantly doing something extraordinary, doesn't make her ordinary. She acts normally. Something Arya was never able to do. Sansa knows something really important - how to fit. Blend in. This could result in a great chance to make connection, to be loved by her people. How does that make her something less than her sister?

Thus said, I wish to say that I respect your opinion. I always get carried away when Sansa is discussed. I get why many people don't like her - but I think she deserves a little more credit than she gets by the fandom! :cool4:

People on this thread keep interpreting comments like "Sansa is stupid" or "Sansa isn't complex" to mean I"m saying Arya is worth more as a person than Sansa, Arya is more complex, and/or start making excuses for why Sansa is the way she is. I don't care why. I'm stating what the characters are. Giving me a lecture on the "why" doesn't change it. Nor did I make the claim that Arya was more complex/worth more than Sansa.

To me complex characters are people like Petyr Baelish...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/51015-the-mad-genius-of-petyr-baelish/

...or Theon Greyjoy.

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2012/02/22-prevented-stark/

[eyenon15]

I think Sansas complexity is more subtle as opposed to the brutish in your face style of Arya. It took me a couple of books to pick up things that Sansa brings to the table.

Probably because I'm a man and Arya embraces male dominated things that I can easily understand.

I wouldn't be surprised if more women picked up on Sansas complexities way quicker than I did.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I think Sansas complexity is more subtle as opposed to the brutish in your face style of Arya. It took me a couple of books to pick up things that Sansa brings to the table.

Probably because I'm a man and Arya embraces male dominated things that I can easily understand.

I wouldn't be surprised if more women picked up on Sansas complexities way quicker than I did.

That was more or less what I attempted to say......

[86shoker]

I think you're just missing what we mean by "complex". Sansa is not a character as complex as, say, Jaime Lannister. Jaime Lannister is morally grey, oscillating between good and evil constantly. Struggling with the vows he has forsaken and what still remains of his honour, struggling with the love for his sister and his brother. So many inner dilemmas, so much pain and uncertainty about who he is and what he wants.

I agree that Sansa has none of that kind of complexity, supposing that was what you meant by saying "complex".

What Sansa fans mean by that, I think, is not that she is an overly complicated, convoluted character like most of the others. Simply that we find her journey though life appealing, because it feels true, and real, and painful.

She is not a flat character. She is, as you rightly put it, just a girl with sense. A girl that, at the beginning, has nothing much to recommend her to most of the audience, perhaps. She is older than Arya, but much more naive. She believes in fairytales. She has no problems with the idea of marrying a lord (or a prince, in her case) and would be contented with bearing his children, raise the, be pretty and kind and loved. And maybe this might seem less interesting than a badass little girl, but it touches my heart to think of all Sansa's dreams of love. Arya never dreams of love, not even at the beginning. Sansa is hungry for it, so much that she mistakes her desires for reality.

Then, reality strikes hard, she loses everything. I agree with you. Any girl with sense (feeling the need to stress that) would probably manage as well as she did. But you make it seem as if that was taking merits away from her. Just because others have the same ability you have, it doesn't make you any less worthy IMO.

Arya is not the only kid that could wield a sword and use it, I'd wager, given the chance. She was just luckier than others and had ways to undergo a training before she was cast on the street with nothing but her skills to survive. Isn't that what Doyle was telling Jon on the Wall, when the boy was complaining about his future "brothers" and how useless they were with a sword? They had never had one, before. That's all. So, people tend to believe that Arya is better than Sansa or more complex... but why? Because few girls know how to use a sword? They lacked the opportunity or the motivation. ANd why should a girl train with a sword? Look at Brienne. In times of peace, she is regarded almost as an abomination. Arya would have grown up to be the same, in time of peace. ANd since Arya had no clue that war would come, having trained as a swordsman (or swordsgirl) doesn't mean she is better than Sansa - just luckier to have aquired an ability that was useful in that moment.

My point being - Arya isn't any more complex than Sansa is. Just luckier in her choices (luckier, not wiser).

Returning to Sansa, as I said, she acted exactly as any other girl with sense would do. Which doesn't authomatically mean she IS just like any other girl. SHe is a Stark, and all Stark children are gifted. My bet is, her talents resemble closely those of her mother Catelyn. The womanly strenght of subtle wisdom and courtly politics - and that's why Martin placed her with Littlefinger, so that she could use her natural talents, or rahter develop them. In insight, she seems more gifted than her brothers and sisters. More cunning, more receptive. Muck quicker to get what people are thinking or plotting, once she starts to get how their mind works.

During AGOT, before I perceived this, I rather disliked Sansa. But I think she has shown complexity. And with COMPLEXITY, what I mean is, that she is a round character. She has hopes and dreams and clinging to them on one side - she is dealing with reality on the other. She has goodness and sense. Just because she is not flamboyantly doing something extraordinary, doesn't make her ordinary. She acts normally. Something Arya was never able to do. Sansa knows something really important - how to fit. Blend in. This could result in a great chance to make connection, to be loved by her people. How does that make her something less than her sister?

Thus said, I wish to say that I respect your opinion. I always get carried away when Sansa is discussed. I get why many people don't like her - but I think she deserves a little more credit than she gets by the fandom! :cool4:

Sansa's complexity is little harder to spot on first reading, becouse her growth comes slowly. Where Arya acts, Sansa observes and tries to stay alive, by reading people and using her courtly skills. Arya seems more dynamic becouse he has more physical agency, she's active travels a lot, kills people. Good point about Jaime, what makes him more complex than Stark girls is his life expirience, which shaped him. He killed the king, he loved(loves) his sister, betrayed his brother, ushed Bran off the tower. His road is heading towards redemtion, Arya not so much. I would like for both Stark girls to deal with their inner demons and find peace. Sansa is dealing better than Arya so far :)

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Don´t know, i like Arya... hers is the FURY :devil:

[dinner]

I've seen threads about Arya's redemption; these don't make sense to me because I don't think she needs to be redeemed. I get that she's killed a bunch of people, but let's be honest, so has nearly every other character in the series.

The fact that's she's young and female has nothing to do with with the quality of her character, as it would be perfectly acceptable if she were a male teenager.

Assassination is a sordid affair, but she kills RAPISTS and KILLERS and has sworn vengeance on those who have ruined her family and put her in the situation in the first place. That's bonus points in my book.

Arya is NOT a psychopath, she's just a young person making do with what she has and valar morghulising a bunch of bad people.

So my question remains: Why do people hate the kick-ass character that is Arya Stark?

I see her falling out with the facelessmen hen they order her to kill someone who she doesn't think deserves it. Either that or she starts bumping people off of her list thus breaking the rules of the facelessmen.

[AllOfTheHours]

Sansa is Sansa and Arya is Arya? You don't say? And I never claimed either was "better."

Arya is more independent than Sansa. Sansa has allowed everyone to do everything for her; including her escape from the Red Keep relying on a drunkard like Dontos. Arya got out herself, has had to live in the forest on bugs, has survived in horrible conditions, etc. Circumstances certainly played a role but I'm not arguing "what might have been." I'm stating what has happened. Sansa's persona is largely a cliche of the medieval highborn lady allowing men to use her as they see fit.

Regards to pampering, pre-ACOK, sure, both had the opportunities for it. Arya denied it often, and after AGOT (you know, the majority of the series), she was denied it altogether.

Regarding stupidity, you're not going to convince me Arya is as stupid/naive as Sansa. Cersei killed Lady/betrayed Ned, Joffrey lied about Micah/tried to kill Arya when she hit him, and yet Sansa could only wake up from her fairytale once Ned died. Arya knew right away what Joffrey/Cersei were. Nor is it "a head full of songs" to not bend over for the feudalist norm by playing swords with a common folk friend. And I can't count the # of times Arya had a fairytale inkling of something, then dismissed it realizing that's how Sansa would think.

I don't want to be symantic and if I am misinterpreting you, I sincerely apologize. But, I honestly find your argument about Sansa to be contradictory.

1.) You say you didn't say one sister was "better." But in the post I responded to you literally compared them, saying Arya is in "a strong contrast" to Sansa and then proceed to denigrate Sansa's characteristics and praise Arya for not having those characteristics. So if you didn't mean to compare them, what did you mean to say here?

I love Arya's character. Her head isn't filled with stupid songs, she has an "eye for an eye" mentality that I largely share, and she's a survivor. She's in many respects a strong contrast to Sansa who is naive, relatively stupid, has a head full of songs, is pampered, and has allowed everyone from friend or foe to take care of her.

2.) Arya didn't just escape the Red Keep alone. She only found the tunnels because she was lucky enough to run into Varys and Illyrio and follow them out so she knew the route in advance. They unintentionally helped her, without them leading her to the escape route she would have been as stuck in the RK as Sansa. Also, even after escaping the castle, she only escaped Flea Bottom (where she was likely to starve, be killed or caught by Gold Cloaks any day by her own admission) because Yoren rescued her. This is not to diminish Arya's resilence, resourcefulness, or tenacity, but simply to point out that both she and Sansa had help escaping. They both had to climb down their secret paths alone (Arya through the dungeons and Sansa though the serpintine path) and then they found a friend (Yoren, eventually, and LF after a boat ride) who helped them get the rest of the way out of the city. It's actually a parallel construction on GRRM's part.

3.) How do you define "pampering"? My googled definition of "pampering" gives me "indulge with every attention, comfort, and kindness; spoil." Ned goes out of his way to pamper Arya by indulging her and spoiling her (in ways that are considered over the top, even his father didn't pamper Lyanna with her own sword master.). Sansa's pampered too, but within the confines of playing the part of a lady like she was raised to be. In the social constructs of Westerns, being a lady does not just = being pampered, it means doing your duty, managing a house, doing the necessary domestic labors (sewing). Arya is rejecting her duty to be a lady like her mother/septa/Sansa. I love that about Arya, that she knows herself and owns that, but she was undeniably pampered.

As for after AGoT, both Arya and Sansa get beaten and tossed around by the Lannisters/Lannister men. It's another parallel construction: Arya from the perspective of the everyday folk of Westeros and Sansa from the perspective of a highborn captive. Arya's life sucks a heck of a lot more IMO, but that doesn't mean that the abuse inflicted on Sansa should be negated/shrugged off because it happened inside a castle. In almost all of her chapters in ACoK and ASoS with Joffrey, he is beating her or threatening to kill her. And until Marge comes into the picture, Sansa thought she had only three chioces for her future: escape with Dontos, kill herself, or let Joffrey rape her, impregnate her and abuse her for the rest of her life under the watchful, permissive eye of the Kingsguard (Rhaella Targ 2.0).

[Lord of Moat Cailin]

Personally I think the first half of her arc was really boreing (secomd half is indeed kick-ass) which may have something to do with it

[ObsessedWithIceAndFire]

People on this thread keep interpreting comments like "Sansa is stupid" or "Sansa isn't complex" to mean I"m saying Arya is worth more as a person than Sansa, Arya is more complex, and/or start making excuses for why Sansa is the way she is. I don't care why. I'm stating what the characters are. Giving me a lecture on the "why" doesn't change it. Nor did I make the claim that Arya was more complex/worth more than Sansa.

To me complex characters are people like Petyr Baelish...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/51015-the-mad-genius-of-petyr-baelish/

...or Theon Greyjoy.

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2012/02/22-prevented-stark/

Which is... pretty much... what I was saying all along..?

What you call "giving you a lecture" is, in fact, the reason why any thread is opnened - TO STATE A OPINION. Because, yeah, maybe you don't care about what others think... but people that read forums usually DO. Like me, who enjoyed reading your opinion and thought to contribute giving you my own version. Wouldn't say it's pointless. Because stating opinions is the essence of a forum. What would be wrong and pointless would be for me to tell you, "yeah, your opinion sucks, you suck and are dumb as heck" as other people sometimes do. THAT leads to nothing. Isn't giving an opinion an important thing instead? [also, no opinion suck]

I respected yours. I said I can get why Arya is liked. Stated why. Thought you had not understood my concept of "complexity". Stated it. Agreed that according to YOUR concept of complexity Arya is perhaps more complex than Arya. Stated it.

As I SAID TOO, Petyr, Jaime, Tyrion, Theon are more complex if with complexity you mean what you mean. I agreed with you. I said I liked those characters too (aside from Arya, well). I said there was also another kind of complexity, the kind Sansa has. I explained why. I didn't say you had to agree. I didn't say you were wrong. And I was, at least I think (and if I wasn't, then I beg your pardon) pretty nice and kept stating that this was not meant to slight those who love Arya.

NO Sansa fan (at least no SMART fan) thinks anything of the sort. We perfectly GET what you mean.

[lidsa]

I don't get why people constantly pit the Stark girls against each other. It's like ASoIaF's Godwin's Law.

Arya, Sansa, Catelyn - I love all the Stark girls. I also see their flaws, though.

What I like about Sansa is that she keeps a level head when she is emotionally hurt, whereas I dislike that Arya reacts to the same hurt with temper tantrums.

I like that Arya has a benevolence about her that makes her care about all kinds of people, while I dislike that Sansa has a more "me first" approach.

Sansa was the one I used to like first, actually, even though the tomboyish, gender-role-defying, adventure-seeking Arya is the character I usually like in that genre. But I could identify much more with Sansa than with Arya, who I warmed up to only after she'd had to watch her father be beheaded and go through that whole ordeal that was the Riverlands odyssey.

Sometimes I wonder if Robb had survived, if people had pitted him against Jon all the time, too. Because Sansa- or Arya-haters are usually the ones who don't accept that they have different personalities and complement each other, instead the fans want 'their' character to be all-in-one.

If Robb had lived, would people still have liked to see Jon become king of the Seven Kingdoms/Lord of Winterfell/Azor Ahai/The Night's King/the Great Other/TPtwP/etc etc? Or would they have wanted Robb to be all that?