Why do people hate the kick-ass character that is Arya Stark?

[foreign675]

Arya could not have cared less if Daeron was a deserter or not. If Daeron actually was a decent guy do you all think she would have killed him anyway? As such arguing over the legality of the action is in my opinion doomed from the start as "he is a deserter" is her way of justifying it, when in reality she just do not like him. So this act in itself in not what i find most disturbing, but the fact that with every kill and this in particular shows how her emapthy is slowly eroded. She is slowly starting to rationalise as any murderer "he/she deserved it because .........".

The path she is going is full of darkness. And i really hope she finds a way back to the light.

Yeah, you have your point. I've gone back rereading some brilliant posts (James Arryn, and others).

Somehow it's pointless discussing this, plenty of people on this board who feel not shame for supporting murder, whereas everyone hurries to say 'but rape is objectively bad, of course'. As if the former is less an abuse than the latter. The lives of people they don't like values nothing, uh?

[ChillyPolly]

Somehow it's pointless discussing this, plenty of people on this board who feel not shame for supporting murder, whereas everyone hurries to say 'but rape is objectively bad, of course'. As if the former is less an abuse than the latter. The lives of people they don't like values nothing, uh?

I'm pretty sure rape advocacy would run amok on these forums if the mods did not have a policy against it.

[Dragon in the North]

Arya could not have cared less if Daeron was a deserter or not. If Daeron actually was a decent guy do you all think she would have killed him anyway? As such arguing over the legality of the action is in my opinion doomed from the start as "he is a deserter" is her way of justifying it, when in reality she just do not like him. So this act in itself in not what i find most disturbing, but the fact that with every kill and this in particular shows how her emapthy is slowly eroded. She is slowly starting to rationalise as any murderer "he/she deserved it because .........".

The path she is going is full of darkness. And i really hope she finds a way back to the light.

But she's never justified any of her kills before, so why would Dareon be different? She specifically labels him as a Night's Watch deserter to the Kindly Man, so I saw it as a way to hang on to her Stark roots and do what she believes her father would have wanted.

[Dragon in the North]

Oh yeah, next time someone from third world comes in first world to seek to make their own 'justice' for some apparent or real injustice they have directly or indirectly experienced.. ..don't complain, 'cause justice is 'subjective'.

So, Arya can kill a man for desertion and call it justice.

What should I say to a man who sees the amount of crimes in this country, and starts jailing people in his own Garage and says 'oh, the state is not doing his job well with these thieves, i ensure they pay for their own actions.. that's justice'.

The fact that 'authority might fail into delivering justice' does not entitle arya, you or anyone else to act at its place. If you do it, you are a criminal. Under all jurisdictions and justice systems on Earth.

The bulk of your viewpoint can be summarized in one word: anarchic.

Good Luck with your decision making.

There is no justice in Westeros, where the law protects rapists and murderers, and where genocide goes unpunished. Arya sees this, and tries to right the wrongs the only way she knows how, via vigilantism. It doesn't make it right, but it makes it understandable.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yeah, but that's my point. Ned doesn't do it because he's a Stark but because he has the authority given by the King in the name of a Lordship.

As I see it, the title "lord" -- when used formally, and not simply as an honorific --conveys not only prestige, but certain legal rights as well. The right of pit and gallows, as they were once called, for instance -- i.e. authority to hang people and toss them into dungeons.

(source)

So, what gives Ned the right is his title, not that much his name or the history of his House, and as I see it, that right is for the Lord and the Lord only. Does Tyrion has the power to hang people without his father's consent? Sam? Brienne?

I understand your point, but the Starks had power over the wall long before Targaryen rule. The incident with the two castles warring and killing the LC of the Watch ended with the Stark of Winterfell taking heads. After Torrhen knelt the Starks carried on as usual with the exception of fealty to the Iron Throne. So, Ned claims his power from the throne, but it is the right and the duty of the Starks to judge and persecute the people of the Watch.

Saying that I will say that Arya is not the Stark in Winterfell, but she is in the position to dispense justice to Daeron. I think she knew of the history between her family and the Night Watch and decided to act accordingly.

I do find it disturbing that one so young is in her position in life, but that's the way it's meant to be. She is GRRM's child soldier.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Oh yeah, I do like Arya's part in the Song. I would like to see her back to Westeros, where I think she will end up at Eastwatch-by-the-sea and then...

[Starks of Winter]

Arya Rocks !!! :box: :box:

:fencing: :fencing:

[Light a wight tonight]

I would love to see Ramsey torn apart by Nymeria's pack. The poetic justice would be fantastic, after he repeatedly raped Jeyne Pool under the premise that she was Arya. Yeah, I know Nymeria is down in the Riverlands.

Whatever "premise" means in this context, it was not exactly a secret that Jeyne was a fake. Most of the Northenrn nobles had visited Wintefell and had met or at least seen Arya.

[Durran Durrandon]

Whatever "premise" means in this context, it was not exactly a secret that Jeyne was a fake. Most of the Northenrn nobles had visited Wintefell and had met or at least seen Arya.

The pretense of Jeyne being Arya was the premise of Ramsey's marriage to Jeyne, regardless of how many people know it is a lie.

[foreign675]

I'm pretty sure rape advocacy would run amok on these forums if the mods did not have a policy against it.

I'm speechless D:

[ChillyPolly]

I'm speechless D:

Why? Moral nihilism runs amok here. So it necessarily follows that ANYTHING is justifiable. For instance, people routinely justify the murder of children and other innocents here. There is no mod policy against that, so there is nothing stopping them.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

But she's never justified any of her kills before, so why would Dareon be different? She specifically labels him as a Night's Watch deserter to the Kindly Man, so I saw it as a way to hang on to her Stark roots and do what she believes her father would have wanted.

Because everyone she killed before Daeron has eitehr hurt her, raff, in self defense or has been on the orders of the FM. And as such she is excpected to be indiferrent to those murders. The reason Daeron is special is that he has neitehr wronged her or is a target for the FM. Which require her to justify it.

[Maid So Fair]

Arya is a fucking hero.

People arguing the justice angle - do you feel the same about all vigilantes?

[Mish Windage]

Maybe Arya will be an Anakin type? Like, get to see how a good guy grows up bad. Be the most feared assassin in all the lands. Take out Rickon to show she can do it, and then the Kindly to become her own free agent.

And it'll be like "But I LIKED her!" and ppl will be all "Yeah but she's like Evil now!" and I will question my own morality.

[sagewich]

I thought this topic had been written to death.

Arya is little girl when she becomes lost in KL, and picked up by the Watch. She had to adapt to survive. Arya is just one example of what happens to people in war; not just a bit of PTSD.

I think that Martin wrote Jaquen in to recruit her to the FM, because he did not know what to do with Ayra. So far, I have not enjoyed her time in the east.

I hope that her wolf will pull her back into the Stark pack.

[HosteenOsteen]

I think it is the bravos scenes people are upswept by, I think those are actually the best, not only for the brilliant rendition of early Renaissance Venice but the way Arya is using the House of Black and White for herself. It is kind of a very dark Hogwarts, and much more interesting.

Someday I want to do a reread of JUST the Arya and Bran chapters, as the two kids' trajectories are so different but both so dark and challenging.....

[Maid So Fair]

I thought this topic had been written to death.

Arya is little girl when she becomes lost in KL, and picked up by the Watch. She had to adapt to survive. Arya is just one example of what happens to people in war; not just a bit of PTSD.

I think that Martin wrote Jaquen in to recruit her to the FM, because he did not know what to do with Ayra. So far, I have not enjoyed her time in the east.

I hope that her wolf will pull her back into the Stark pack.

Actually, GRRM is quoted as saying that he's always known what Arya's arc was going to be. Sure, he might meander along the way and different roads sometimes lead to the same castle, but she's the POV with 4th biggest number of chapters after Jon, Dany and Tyrion, so I doubt he just doesn't know what to do with her. She's got a huge role to play. And if he wrote Jaquen in for her to join the FM< he did so in the very first book.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Actually, GRRM is quoted as saying that he's always known what Arya's arc was going to be. Sure, he might meander along the way and different roads sometimes lead to the same castle, but she's the POV with 4th biggest number of chapters after Jon, Dany and Tyrion, so I doubt he just doesn't know what to do with her. She's got a huge role to play. And if he wrote Jaquen in for her to join the FM< he did so in the very first book.

Actually, Arya has more chapters than Daenerys (it's Tyrion: 47, Jon: 42, Arya: 33, Daenerys: 31).

[Maid So Fair]

Actually, Arya has more chapters than Daenerys (it's Tyrion: 47, Jon: 42, Arya: 33, Daenerys: 31).

Well damn.

[Taenqyrhae]

But all that Arya saw was a deserter. Do you think it's equally as disturbing that Ned executed Gared?

No, because Ned had the authority to kill Gared, and only did so after a lengthy conversation with him (I forgot this part but recently re-read the first book and noticed Bran describes Ned asking several questions and getting responses, though he does not say what Ned asked). As Lord of Winterfell, Eddard Stark's duty was to execute Gared. If any Northerner was free to execute deserters, why did they chain Gared to the outside of the holdfast and wait for Ned to get there?

Also, Gared was not given orders to leave the Wall and travel around the world singing songs of the bravery of the Watch. Yes, Daereon at the time was claiming he would not go back and I think it's likely he wouldn't, but Arya couldn't know if Daereon might have changed his mind when confronted by Sam, just like Jon changed his mind about deserting. He was still in the same city as Sam, and Sam knew where he was. Arya could have tried to intimidate Daereon into remembering his duties, but nope, had to sate that bloodlust.